Hi,

I'm thinking about monitoring my hives electronically for
temperature, weight and, sound. Right now, I have three (stacking)
hives placed in my garden, less than 10 m from my house, but with
time, I also want to add monitoring devices to more remote hives.

I'd like to build a low-cost, low-power device based on either a
PIC16 or the small Atmels. Haven't decided on which interface I will
use. I'm familiar with RS-485 and I2C, but lack experience with
wireless technologies necessary for the remote hives.

I would like to open a discussion on how to build a suitable, low-
cost scale for the hives. I'm thinking in the line of strain-gauges,
but weighing cells may be an option, if the price is sufficiently low.

With regard to temperature, suggestions on sensors and placement are
most welcome.

I'd also like suggestions about what type of microphone to place in
my hives, where to put it and, how to contain it. I'm thinking about
adding apidictor functions, as I don't consider the transmission of
sound a viable option for remote hives.

Measuring a few meteorological parameters, such as wind, may also be
of interest.

Ping.

I saw a melter the other day that was really good... It was a old storm
door\glass door still in it's casement.  The guy put a bottom "plywood" on
the bottom casement and painted it black. To get to the wax you just open
the door! The door laid on the ground at an angle and really did a job.

-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Dick [mailto:allend@...]
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 12:57 PM
To: BeeGadgets@egroups.com
Subject: RE: [BeeGadgets] solar wax melter


> I am looking for solar wax melter plans, was wondering if anyone has some?

Some people use an old freezer (or any liquid-tight box) with a pane of
glass
over it.  It has to slope a bit and have a hole for the wax to run out.
Some
racks, such as excluders and sacking provide a platform and a filter to keep
the
cocoons from blocking things up.

allen






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Not of much use unless you can locate the articles involved, but I've got a
bibliography and short reviews of solar wax melters at
http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/biblio7.htm

Nick Wallingford
nickw@...

allen

Would relative weight changes be "good enough" or do you need to know the
actual weight of a hive at any given time?
What accuracy in the weight measurements are you looking for?
>
>Has anyone come any closer to a cheap system to monitor the weights
>and convey the info to a central point for analysis?
>

> I am looking for solar wax melter plans, was wondering if anyone has some?

Some people use an old freezer (or any liquid-tight box) with a pane of glass
over it.  It has to slope a bit and have a hole for the wax to run out.  Some
racks, such as excluders and sacking provide a platform and a filter to keep the
cocoons from blocking things up.

allen

Hi Matthew,

There are some plans at:

http://www.beesource.com/plans/melter.htm

If you need help with measurements and such, let me
know.  I built a sortof make shift one last summer.  I
am planning on building one like in the picture this
week or next and don't mind sharing the info I learn.

Carm


--- Matthew olmstead <druid@...> wrote:
>          I am looking for solar wax melter
> plains,was woundering if anyone has some?
>
>                                Thanks, Matt
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com

> Has anyone on this list defined the parameters that might be
> interesting to monitor? I think hive weight gain/loss has
> been mentioned. I recall some talk about monitoring of sounds.
> Has anyone considered heat gain/loss or temperature? Some
> parameters may not be practical due to sensor limitations
> and costs.

On the subject of heat, a recent web article mentioned on BEE-L
indicated that bees elevate cluster temperature a bit to fight
chalkbrood.  That idea might be useful somhow.

I still think, though, that weight is the most usuful and cheap to
obtain.  I was corresponding with Jack Griffes again yesterday after
visiting his web page at http://griffes.tripod.com/HIP1.html , and
notice that 10 day weight gain is used in their HIP selection.

Aside from all the other data that weight can infer, rapid short term
weight gain is an excellent measure of the productivity of the stasin
of bees in the hive.

Has anyone come any closer to a cheap system to monitor the weights
and convey the info to a central point for analysis?

allen

-----Original Message-----
From: Chiemer@... [mailto:Chiemer@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 1:09 PM
To: BeeGadgets@egroups.com
Subject: Re: [BeeGadgets] Plam Pilot

Bob:

I have been using a Palm Pilot, with a spreadsheet program on it
(Quicksheet).  It sure is great, because it gives me immediate totals, and it
forces me to keep all the information in one place and organized.  It is
compatible with Microsoft Excel.

Bob:

I have been using a Palm Pilot, with a spreadsheet program on it
(Quicksheet).  It sure is great, because it gives me immediate totals, and it
forces me to keep all the information in one place and organized.  It is
compatible with Microsoft Excel.

Chris Hiemstra
Clovermead Apiaries
11302 Imperial Road, RR # 4
Aylmer, Ontario, Canada, N5H 2R3
Bus.   Tel./Fax (519) 773-5503
Home Tel./Fax (519) 773-3780
E-mail Chiemer@...

Hi Bob,
	 Let us know when you have something ready to look at.

Thanks, Jake Ameel -Good-Rich Apiaries


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob [mailto:BobCan@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 12:25 PM
> To: BeeGadgets@egroups.com
> Subject: [BeeGadgets] Plam Pilot
>
>
> A friend of mine and I have been working on a palm pilot program which is
> allows you to go your bee yard and take specific bee related info
> regarding
> your colonies and return the info back to your computer.  This program is
> really nice. Stay tuned as we hope to release it in the near future if all
> goes well.  BTW is there anyone out there that thinks this would help them
> in the field?
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Hot off the press- summer's here!
> School's out and it's sizzling hot. Whether you're planning a
> graduation party, a summer brunch, or simple birthday party,
> shop GreatEntertaining.com before your next celebration.
> http://click.egroups.com/1/4473/1/_/711902/_/959790333/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Community email addresses:
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>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>   http://www.onelist.com/community/BeeGadgets
>
>

A friend of mine and I have been working on a palm pilot program which is
allows you to go your bee yard and take specific bee related info regarding
your colonies and return the info back to your computer.  This program is
really nice. Stay tuned as we hope to release it in the near future if all
goes well.  BTW is there anyone out there that thinks this would help them
in the field?

Just wanted to add an item to the gadget list that I am using that makes
life a lot easier when working my bees.

Normally in the early spring and other times when my hives are connected
with burr comb it is very tricky for me to split them apart with out pulling
some of the lower chamber frames up.  I have some really strong fishing line
about 24 inches of it tied to a 3 inch dowel on each end.  I hold each dowel
and pull the line between the chambers which makes it much easier to split.


I hope this helps someone...

Bob Cannaday
S.E. Ohio

>> Sounds like the Helvy Hive Carrier (see BEE-L archives)

> Yup, it does.

Another similar device on the high end recommended by Mason Harris can be
viewed at:
http://www.forklift.com/

Aaron Morris - I think, therefore I bee!

> Sounds like the Helvy Hive Carrier (see BEE-L archives)

Yup, it does.

I put pictures of my carrier and links to those BEE-L discussions at
http://www.rossrounds.com/HoneyBee/Diary/default.htm#carrier

allen
--
A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/
Package installation & performance experiments, winter loss, fondant feeding,
Pierco vs. Permadent vs. dark comb, unwrapping bees, spring splitting tricks,
AFB, varroa, protein patties, daily mumblings and more... Over 1850 served

>Has anyone on this list defined the parameters that might be interesting
>to monitor? ......
>heat gain/loss or temperature? Some parameters may not be practical due to
>sensor limitations and costs.

>Wade


I would be interested in looking at the relative humidity both inside the
hive and out side the hive.
The cost of the sensors for temperature, humidity and light are not
prohibitive.

Does Jerry J. Bromenshenk have any published papers that may be able to help
in defining some of the parameters we may find useful? Any available on the
web?

John Lewis

Hi Allen

I forgot about the gadgets list. Thanks for the reminder.

Has anyone on this list defined the parameters that might be interesting
to monitor? I think hive weight gain/loss has been mentioned. I recall
some talk about monitoring of sounds. Has anyone considered heat
gain/loss or temperature? Some parameters may not be practical due to
sensor limitations and costs.

Discussion?

Wade
--
Web Site:  http://www.honeyhillfarm.com
E-mail:      beekeeper@...
Call Sign:   W8BEE

Hi Gang

I notice we are getting new people joining all the time -- even
though we are not doing much on this list.

I have not much to relate personally, although I did recently buy a
gadget (made in Saskatchewan) for moving hives around in a beeyard.
It has couple of bicycle wheels and I'll try to post pictures of it
some time soon.

In the meantime, the old meassages are at
http://www.egroups.com/messages/BeeGadgets

We originally set up to discuss the idea of implementing a system of
remote beehive monitoring.  I know several people are working on this
and hope amybe we can get some progress reports.

How about it?

allen
--
A Beekeeper's Diary: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Diary/
Package installation & performance experiments, winter loss, fondant
feeding, Pierco vs. Permadent vs. dark comb, unwrapping bees, spring
splitting tricks, AFB, varroa, protein patties, daily mumblings and
more... Over 1725 served

Hello fellow beekeepers,

I am currently starting to build beekeeping woodenware.  I have
noticed there is all sizes.  And I would like to know what is the
common size here is North America, or whereever our type of equipment
is used, for that matter.

Please send me some of the measurements of your equipment, and what
you think are the best measurements and why.

I appreciate the help.

Carmenie

P.S.  How big is the bee space?  5/16, or 3/8.

> > Check the BEE-L logs.  Lots of talk about there that problem.  Keyword:
vacuum

> ...where are the BEE-L logs?

Sorry about the overly brief post yesterday.  I was running late, and should
have added the following .sig

I sometimes leave it off because some people find it annoying.

allen
-----
See if your questions have been answered in over a decade of discussions.
BEE-L archives & more: http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee/Bee-l.htm
Search sci.agriculture.beekeeping at http://www.deja.com/
or visit http://www.internode.net/HoneyBee to access both on the same page.

> I don't
> have a clue as to how to keep the bees undamaged - maybe a larger catch-box
> would solve that.


Check the BEE-L logs.  Lots of talk about there that problem.  Keyword: vacuum

allen

microweld@... wrote:

> From: microweld@...
>
> I am planning on building a bee vacuum. My desire is to use a gas
> powered variable speed small engine

Sure - sounds like the dirt (and gold) vac I've been wanting to build for
several years. I picked up a gas leaf-blower at Sears for under $100., and
plan to mount it on the lid of a 5 gal. bucket. Published articles and
versions of this I've seen in gold prospecting shops sometimes have a screen
below the lid. As these engines run at constant rate, I'd vary the vacuum
with an outside air valve on the hose. Plug the hose into the bucket about
half-way down the side, and possibly put a diverter flap inside. I don't
have a clue as to how to keep the bees undamaged - maybe a larger catch-box
would solve that.
-----------------------------------------------------------
John F. Edwards
"Feral Bee Tracker and AHB Identifier"
Carl Hayden Bee Research Center
Tucson, Arizona 85719
http://198.22.133.109/

I am planning on building a bee vacuum. My desire is to use a gas
powered variable speed small engine for my power source. I want the
engine small enough to mount on the catch box itself.I also do not
wish to spend a fortune. Does anyone have a source for such an engine
or any suggestions?
                 Thanks,
                        Kurt

I found that Parallax has changed their internet address.  The correct one
is below:
http://www.parallaxinc.com./

They produce a small, low power computer processor that is programmable in
Basic, one of the easiest languages.  They also have a wireless link,
actuators and robots.


Ray Lackey

X8066

Separating the levels of wireless interconnect into
	 Remote - large distance, and
	 Local - within yard
I would like to suggest the local consider the Bluetooth standard being
proposed for a wireless local loop for computerized equipment.  The
advantage will be mass produced, low cost components.  Their standard

http://www.bluetooth.com/developer/specification/specification.asp

has two power levels, one for ten yards and a second for 100 yards range.
The plan is to have the wireless link cost below ten dollars to implement.
Devices meeting the standard are just becoming available.

The previously mentioned 1-wire wired network could also be used for a wired
local network between hives to a single monitoring/communication station for
the yard but the wires can get cut and pulled.  Its advantage is low cost
and daisy-chaining to large numbers very easily.

I believe that power is going to be the limiting issue for the low-cost,
in-hive monitor.  To keep power to a minimum, I suggest that the central
monitor be always on and the individual monitors only turn on the wireless
network when it wants to communicate, probably on a time schedule unless a
sudden change is detected, i.e.. the "earth moved".


Ray Lackey

X8066

I just got notice that ONEList and eGroups have amalgamated and that there will
be some improvements, including the address of the list.  Nonetheless this
address will continue to work.  The web home page which has our files and
archives for BeeGadgets (http://www.onelist.com/community/BeeGadgets) will
change a little over the next few days.  I notice that some of the features are
not available today, (and it tells me I am not a member of this group!) but
expect that all will be working properly shortly.  Please visit it from time to
time and feel free to upload files that others might appreciate.

Thanks to Ray for the excellent post today.  I hope everyone will contribute his
or her little bit to this community effort and post technical suggestions or
practical thoughts.  Some dreaming would be nice too -- for inspiration.

allen

PS: The 'net seems slow today (Monday) and some big sites are not responding.
Looks like the vandals are at it again.

On the idea of making the hive monitor modular and having a standard
interface, I would like to suggest the 1-wire interface from Dallas
Semiconductor.  This standard already has a number of devices designed for
it and can operate over a large distance with only a few wires.  They have
electronic serial numbers, thermometers and counters as standard chips.
Visit

http://www.ibutton.com/weather/index.html#intro

To see how they have used these chips and this interface to develop a low
cost weather station including wind speed and direction, temperature, and
rainfall.  While you are there you may want to take a look at the iButton
technology.  I have thought of using these to store history of equipment or
hive so that it is electronically readable by whoever is working the yard
without a wireless data link to the master database.

If you want to do some low cost prototyping you could use the Basic-Stamp
Processor from Parallax, available from a number of electronics hobby shop
mail order places.  It is programmable in BASIC and can talk to a PC over an
RS-232 port.  Their web page

http://www.parallaxinc.com

was down at the time I sent this but they have some nice examples of how
powerful a little processor can be.

Ray Lackey
  Raymond J. Lackey                           Sweet Pines Apiary
web page: http://www.tianca.com/tianca2.html
email home: lackeyray@...
email office: lackeyr@...

> There has been talk about what should and should not be included in
> the yard/Hive monitoring device.  Why can't it be designed and built
> in a modular fashion, thereby allowing people to pick and choose the
> final configuration they want to install/use.  Or even better yet -
> Allow someone to start off small, but then expand the system as they
> prove to themselves the products usefulness - or obtain the necessary
> funds.

Makes sense to me.  The communications hardware package is going to be common to
all yard set-ups.  There may be several versions, though.  One might be suitable
for a back garden set-up and use 900 MHz or a light beam, another, for more
remote use could use cellular and an autodialer, and one for really remote
situations might use satellite.  Thus, there might be two modules in this
module: one to gather and encode the data, one to send.

The question of how much data to gather, how much to transmit and possible
compression and interpretation methods are all topics that will require some
thought.  More on this in another post.

> The central communication module is built to handle all
> components (and adaptable to new ones as they are developed), but the
> individual modules are built as separate entities.

This makes sense to me.  If a standard interface is designed, expanding would be
simple.  The software could be designed the same modular fashion.

> Hive Scale, Internal Hive monitor (temp, Sound, etc), External weather
> station (Temp, Precip Gauge, Humidity), Hive Cam - Yard Cam (Bear
> Country? Security) - Heck, maybe even a remote sensor to let you know
> if the electric fence around a yard is still functioning!

I see weight as being the most rugged and meaningful data, but the others might
surprise me.  The other inputs might provide data to improve wintering and other
poorly understood problems.

I've uploaded a text file consisting of some of my previous writing to the
ONEList BeeGadgets site at http://www.onelist.com/files/BeeGadgets/, and invite
others to do so too. (Pictures of any existing set-ups would be interesting if
they are not on web pages that can be referenced from messages).  My wish list
in that file is based exclusively on sensitive real time weight monitoring and
postulates that almost all necessary management info could be deduced from
weight readings alone..

> If possible, other markets and products could be researched and some
> might already be developed (Like the remote weather station) and could
> be easily interfaced into the apiductor...  Or, other markets need a
> remote monitoring device like we are discussing - More products sold -
> reduced manufacturing costs.

Good point.  Anyone with brand names, sources and prices could volunteer them
here.  I'm hoping that a good discussion will evolve here, and that members will
not take too many matters off-list or hold their cards too close too their
chests.  We're not much concerned about volume here (yet) like on BEE-L.

> A couple of markets that probably have or need some sort of remote
> monitoring is the Turkey and Chicken farming industry.  Most of the
> houses are in remote locations, or there just isn't enough time to go
> each and every day.  If remote monitoring technology existed for them,
> they could cut labor costs (Most have a hired hand that lives in a
> trailer near the houses 'in case of an emergency') (Weather, temp,
> video, and remote equipment automation would be important to them) -
> Anyways, the idea is that modular design and development would open up
> the device to applications and markets other than the Bee industry.

Anything that increases volume should reduce cost, and cost, so far -- other
than sourcing components -- looks like the biggest problem.

> BTW:  And I am stepping way put of my sphere of Knowledge, but has
> anyone done a quick patent check or patent application on this
> conceptual idea.  If no one has done this before - yall should protect
> yourselves from someone stealing a really great (and achievable) idea.

AFAIK, this is all pretty much proven technology, and it is only a matter of
working out the details and assembling systems from available sources -- after
finding them. Whether or not, a patent can be obtained for such an assemblage, I
don't know.  Actually, I personally kinda hope not.

I think that actual details have to be provided and some sort of working model
before a good patent can be obtained in such a project.  Maybe not, but IMO, it
would be a shame if someone tried to keep others from working on this.
Protecting one's own work is one thing, trying to monopolize a market is
another. I'd like to see us all work together and give freely.  I personally do
not expect to profit, except from using the end result.

Software and data delivery seems to me to be an area where there is room for
uniqueness and some protection.  I know that Jerry has been working on this and
likely has some sort of protection on some of his ideas.  Maybe he will comment.

I do understand that many people investing a lot of personal time and money into
this would want to have some protection, so maybe we need to talk more about
this.  I'd like to see this a volunteer collaborative project, but can
understand that some may wish to  own some of the results.  The internet has
been an interesting and successful mix of altruistic effort and commerce, so
maybe the two motives are not at odds.

allen

Hello All,
    Just wanted to toss out a couple of product packaging ideas...

There has been talk about waht should and should not be included in
the yard/Hive monitoring device.  Why can't it be designed and built
in a modular fashion, thereby allowing people to pick and choose the
final configuration they want to install/use.  Or even better yet -
Allow someone to start off small, but then expand the system as they
prove to themselves the products usefullness - or obtain the necesary
funds.

The central communication module is prodable built to handle all
components (and adaptable to new ones as they are developed), but the
individual modules are built as seperate entities.

Hive Scale, Internal Hive monitor (temp, Sound, etc), External weather
station (Temp, Precip Guage, Humidity), Hive Cam - Yard Cam (Bear
Country? Security) - Heck, maybe even a remote sensor to let you know
if the electric fence around a yard is still functioning!

If possible, other markets and products could be researched and some
might already be developed (Like the remote weather station) and could
be easily interfaced into the apiductor...  Or, other markets need a
remote monitoring device like we are discussing - More products sold -
reduced manufacturing costs.

A couple of markets that probably have or need some sort of remote
monitoring is the Turkey and Chicken farming industry.  Most of the
houses are in remote locations, or there just isnt enough time to go
each and every day.  If remote monitoring technology existed for them,
they could cut labor costs (Most have a hired hand that lives in a
trailer near the houses 'in case of an emergency') (Weather, temp,
video, and remote equipment automation would be important to them) -
Anyways, the idea is that modular design and development would open up
the device to applications and markets other than the Bee industry.

Oh, Well - My 2 cents worth.

BTW:  And i am stepping way put of my sphere of Knowledge, but has
anyone done a quick patent check or patent application on this
conceptual idea.  If no one has done this before - yall should protect
yourselfs from someone stealing a really great (and achievable) idea.

Rod Billett
Lexington, SC

Hi Everyone,

I see we are growing.  So far 5 members, and the list is only hours old.

I don't have time to get much happening, but I had thought to either gather the
posts from BEE-L dealing with the telemetry topic and closely related matters
and to put them in the 'Files' section or repost them here.  Probably the
former.

The problem is I don't have the time right now, so if anyone wants to take the
initiative and get the ball rolling, go right ahead...

Remember we can accommodate binaries, so if you have pictures of some gadget,
post them here.

Please don't post MSWord docs, though -- too many macro viruses around lately.

Thanks

allen