T & T have Duck feet on sale for 1.27 lb and 6 quail for $5.99.
A new store opened in Ottawa and my friends up there are loving the
place....
This is the link to theToronto flyer...


http://www.tnt-supermarket.com/en/weekly_special_popup.php


Sherri

I don't think I was shouting. Just reminding which list this actually is.

There are many more people on the main list to answer questions.

Kim  Peters
Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
www.dogsbehaven.com




2009/11/19 Skye <doggieskye@...>

> Yeah yeah no need to shout KIM
>
> KatSkye
>
> On Nov 19, 2009, at 10:22 AM, Flatcoatkim <flatcoatkim@...> wrote:
>
> There's been so many posts lately on the SUPPLY list, this really does
> belong on the main list.
>
> Kim Peters
> Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> www.dogsbehaven.com
>
> 2009/11/18 Brandikathy <doggieskye@...>
>
> > I'm pretty new to raw and was wondering if someone could help me a
> little.
> > If I had a big dog, I think I would have more choice of raw meaty bones
> but
> > I wonder....For a dog the size of a Bichon, what kind of meaty bones are
> > good? I give mine turkey necks, but don't let him eat it completely. Just
> > some of it. I just wondered what other kind of meaty bones would be good
> > and ok for a dog this size. :)Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
> viewed
> > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or
> links
> > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or viewed
> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or links
> at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah yeah no need to shout KIM

KatSkye

On Nov 19, 2009, at 10:22 AM, Flatcoatkim <flatcoatkim@...> wrote:

There's been so many posts lately on the SUPPLY list, this really does
belong on the main list.

Kim Peters
Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
www.dogsbehaven.com

2009/11/18 Brandikathy <doggieskye@...>

> I'm pretty new to raw and was wondering if someone could help me a little.
> If I had a big dog, I think I would have more choice of raw meaty bones but
> I wonder....For a dog the size of a Bichon, what kind of meaty bones are
> good? I give mine turkey necks, but don't let him eat it completely. Just
> some of it. I just wondered what other kind of meaty bones would be good
> and ok for a dog this size. :)Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or viewed
> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or links
> at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There's been so many posts lately on the SUPPLY list, this really does
belong on the main list.

Kim  Peters
Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
www.dogsbehaven.com




2009/11/18 Brandikathy <doggieskye@...>

> I'm pretty new to raw and was wondering if someone could help me a little.
> If I had a big dog, I think I would have more choice of raw meaty bones but
> I wonder...For a dog the size of a Bichon, what kind of meaty bones are
> good? I give mine turkey necks, but don't let him eat it completely. Just
> some of it.  I just wondered what other kind of meaty bones would be good
> and ok for a dog this size. :)Thanks.
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or viewed
> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or links
> at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'd like to join in with some birthday wishes for Dylan also! :)

Olga

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 9:25 PM, i l l o n a <illona@...> wrote:

> that's awesome, Sheila!  happy bday to the old man.  i can only hope my
> girl makes it even close to that.
>
> illona
> www.scruffydogphotography.com
> www.scruffydogphotography.com/blog
>
>
>  Thanks for the endoresment, Sherri and Liz. I have agreed with everything
> you have suggested so far to the newbie raw feeder, hopefully the dog in
> question will be well on its way to being healthy again. Please join me in
> wishing my golden a Happy 14 th Birthday. 12 yrs on raw now and no vaccines
> for that long either, Dylan is basically pretty healthy, a few senior
> moments every once in a while but who doesn't have those. LOL
>  sheila
>  dservice@...
>  Bowmanville on ca
>  www.yourbestfriendsfood.com
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Honestly whatever he can handle I'd let him have (except for the usual "bad
guys" like cow leg bones).  Just don't let him eat so much that he makes
himself sick - if he doesn't self-regulate then I'd take away large items
when you think he's eaten enough.

I'd feed any chicken bones, some turkey ones (depending on what he can
manage), and many pork bones as well.  And if some bones he can't consume
there's still value in trying, plus a great tooth cleaning at the same time!

Olga

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Brandikathy <doggieskye@...> wrote:

> I'm pretty new to raw and was wondering if someone could help me a little.
> If I had a big dog, I think I would have more choice of raw meaty bones but
> I wonder...For a dog the size of a Bichon, what kind of meaty bones are
> good? I give mine turkey necks, but don't let him eat it completely. Just
> some of it.  I just wondered what other kind of meaty bones would be good
> and ok for a dog this size. :)Thanks.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm pretty new to raw and was wondering if someone could help me a little. If I
had a big dog, I think I would have more choice of raw meaty bones but I
wonder...For a dog the size of a Bichon, what kind of meaty bones are good? I
give mine turkey necks, but don't let him eat it completely. Just some of it.  I
just wondered what other kind of meaty bones would be good and ok for a dog this
size. :)Thanks.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wow this one worked: "Problem". How strange.Thanks for the two responders!
(Thanks Olga and Goldie!)---------Are you replying using your email client or
through the Yahoo Groups
website? You may want to check with the Yahoo folks if they are having
issues, either in general or with your email provider.

Good luck!

Olga---------Sometimes you server's link are blocked by whatever normal routing
goes.
I have had some post of mine to Yahoo groups get delayed by several hours due to
some routing issue in the background. Sometimes email becomes snail mail if
there is a broken connection out in cyberspace.

Goldie




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

that's awesome, Sheila!  happy bday to the old man.  i can only hope my girl
makes it even close to that.

illona
www.scruffydogphotography.com
www.scruffydogphotography.com/blog


   Thanks for the endoresment, Sherri and Liz. I have agreed with everything you
have suggested so far to the newbie raw feeder, hopefully the dog in question
will be well on its way to being healthy again. Please join me in wishing my
golden a Happy 14 th Birthday. 12 yrs on raw now and no vaccines for that long
either, Dylan is basically pretty healthy, a few senior moments every once in a
while but who doesn't have those. LOL
   sheila
   dservice@...
   Bowmanville on ca
   www.yourbestfriendsfood.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I Live in Manitoba and I bought the grinder below from One Stop Jerky Shop
online from the US. You would get a better deal then I did b/c our CDN $ is
doing SO MUCH better then when I bought mine last christmas. Customer Service
was great as well. You can contact them to get a firm price including shipping.
I would recommend also ordering at the same time with this grinder the larger
hole plate 3/4" and also a plate hole cleaner brushes and brush for the grinder.
The stainless steel plates are the best. This is a really great grinder :) :)

http://www.onestopjerkyshop.com/tasin-ts108-electric-meat-grinder-p-47.html?osCs\
id=f701016397717a0f459ce9deddccd92c

Good luck!
KZ

--- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, "Catherine" <egaddabout@...> wrote:
>
> Hi group,
>
> I am in the market for a grinder... just starting my research I will need to
grind, chicken quaters some pork riblets chicken necks do not need to grind huge
volumes but I want to invest in something that will do the job and not break
after some use.!! I live in Toronto but I can order from the USA if I need to.
Thanks for any info you can send me on your experience and use of grinders.
> Catherine.
>

Are you replying using your email client or through the Yahoo Groups
website?  You may want to check with the Yahoo folks if they are having
issues, either in general or with your email provider.

Good luck!

Olga

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Skye <doggieskye@...> wrote:

> Hello,  I have replied to posts several times and only one has shown up.
>  What's going on? If this doesn't work please remove me off the group.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sometimes you server's link are blocked by whatever normal routing goes.
I have had some post of mine to Yahoo groups get delayed by several hours due to
some routing issue in the background.  Sometimes email becomes snail mail if
there is a broken connection out in cyberspace.

Goldie



-----Original Message-----
From: Skye <doggieskye@...>
To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com <CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 4:40 pm
Subject: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Problem




Hello, I have replied to posts several times and only one has shown up. What's
going on? If this doesn't work please remove me off the group.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

happy 14th! your dogs are blessed, those of us that know you love you for
what you do!
liz

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 7:13 PM, sheila <dservice@...> wrote:

>
>
> Thanks for the endoresment, Sherri and Liz. I have agreed with everything
> you have suggested so far to the newbie raw feeder, hopefully the dog in
> question will be well on its way to being healthy again. Please join me in
> wishing my golden a Happy 14 th Birthday. 12 yrs on raw now and no vaccines
> for that long either, Dylan is basically pretty healthy, a few senior
> moments every once in a while but who doesn't have those. LOL
> sheila
> dservice@... <dservice%40rogers.com>
> Bowmanville on ca
> www.yourbestfriendsfood.com
>
> --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Liz joffe <lizjoffe@... <lizjoffe%40gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> From: Liz joffe <lizjoffe@... <lizjoffe%40gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with Questions
> To:
CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com<CanadianRawPetSupply%40yahoogroups.com>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,  I have replied to posts several times and only one has shown up.  What's
going on? If this doesn't work please remove me off the group.

Thanks for the endoresment, Sherri and Liz. I have agreed with everything you
have suggested so far to the newbie raw feeder, hopefully the dog in question
will be well on its way to being healthy again. Please join me in wishing my
golden a Happy 14 th Birthday. 12 yrs on raw now and no vaccines for that long
either, Dylan is basically pretty healthy, a few senior moments every once in a
while but who doesn't have those. LOL
sheila
dservice@...
Bowmanville on ca
www.yourbestfriendsfood.com

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Liz joffe <lizjoffe@...> wrote:


From: Liz joffe <lizjoffe@...>
Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with Questions
To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 8:00 AM, Sherri Canjar <aylastar@...> wrote:

>
> As far as premade raw ground, I have no preference. Just pick one that
> only has one kind of meat with bone and organ and nothing else in it
> until this allergy thing is really pinned down.


In this category I highly recommend Pawsitively Raw.It is an operation owned
by Portugese water dog breeders.- available in 1 and 3 lb. tubs leakproof
tubs. Expensive? yes indeed! but I use it when I am giving my dogs to
handlers for showing. Convenient and an excellent product. If money is not a
big issue and you want portability these guys are good. Pure meat (you
choose the type) beef, rabbit, chicken,turkey,fish,bison,lamb all ground
with organ meat, and bone- very fresh smelling,  - they have a web site to
check into further.

>
>
>
> I get my green tripe and most of my food from Sheila Service here in
> Bowmanville. If she doesn't chime in, I can give you her email address
> separately....
> She gets the tripe whole, then freezes it and cuts it into blocks with
> her meat saw.
>
I endorse Sheila as well! You wont find anything better for her price- and
the tripe is conveniently portioned in 1 lb. blocks. Tripe isnt easy or fun
to deal with and her customers appreciate what she does, she's totally
honest, no mark-up here! She also has terrific ground lamb with bone ground
in it and chicken frames by the case.

>
> There are other suppliers out there, depending on where you live.
>
> Sherri
>
> On 17-Nov-09, at 2:19 PM, Deborah wrote:
>
> Thanks Sherri,
>
> My God! My head is spinning now after reading this. I thought that,
> since I haven't done as much research as I know I need to do, that
> feeding the pre mixed would be better for the dogs at least for right
> now. The vet did say that we could work together to construct a proper
> diet plan for Aurora and is a big advocate of raw.
>
> Man, I wish there was some sort of magic list of what to feed vs what
> not to feed, ie feed these bones not those ones, don't feed this meat
> because of this, feed this meat because of this.
>
> Where did you all learn all of what you know?
>
> Sherri, you mentioned that the brand I'm feeding is full of junk. Is
> there another brand (or a few) that you could recommend?
>
> Also, as for the green tripe: where does one get that? I'm assuming
> you're not talking about the canned variety that you can buy in pet
> shops, but rather some raw variety? Do you buy that frozen like the
> prepared foods?
>
> Aside from asking a bunch of annoying questions of this group, how
> else might I become more informed about the raw diet? Are there
> specific books you'd recommend? Websites with good info for newbies?
>
> Thanks again for all your help so far,
>
> Deb
>
> --- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, Sherri Canjar
> <aylastar@...> wrote:
>  >
>  > I think some if it depends on the smarts of the dog.
>  > My 35 lb tollers eat turkey wing and necks. They stop a the hardest
>  > part of the leg bone and leave it for me to collect. These bones have
>  > no marrow so are hold no interest at that point.
>  > They do the same thing with roaster pig skulls...I have to pick up
> the
>  > teeth in a small segment of jawbone when they are done.
>  > Turkey ecks are just crushed.
>  > re: wild boar. It's pig. If your dog is allergic to pig, they will
>  > react. If they don't react, you don't have a pig allergy.
>  > FYI. There has not been trich in the domestic swine herd in Canada
> for
>  > decades. I learned early this year that trich has not been in the
>  > farmed wild boar population in canada for a long time either. This
>  > info is on the Gov of Canada websites.
>  >
>  > Deborah, you have an unusual mix of knowledge about raw. You have
> some
>  > good knowledge about a few things that shows you are trying to get
>  > your head around this and have been at it for a while, yet at the
> same
>  > time are asking questions about some pretty basic stuff.
>  > For this reason, I am not convinced that you did an elimination diet.
>  > This isn't meant to be adversarial, or insult you at all, or accuse
>  > you of lying...not even a little bit.
>  > You obviously care about your animals a lot and you have tried some
>  > things to figure it out as you went along. You are asking excellent
>  > questions and you are on the right track.
>  >
>  > It just that if you had done an elimination diet. you would learned a
>  > lot feeding whole bone/meat/organs already and would not need to ask
>  > some of the questions you have.
>  >
>  > I also just looked up the prepared food you are feeding. It has so
>  > much "crap" in it, it isn't funny. If your dog reacted to the recipes
>  > they have, I would not be surprised. That company is clearly another
>  > dog food company trying to appeal to people by applying human dietary
>  > requirements to dogs. No different than the marketing techniques of
>  > the kibble manufacturers.
>  >
>  > Try Illona's elimination diet. I know it will be tough to do for 3
>  > weeks. No dog cookies, treats, veggies or anything other than the
>  > chosen protein source. And no cooking yet. If you can get the meat
>  > types without preservatives (salt, bleach,nitrates), even better.
>  > Start with whole chickens...quick, easy and cheap. Throw in some
>  > chicken livers with it too. Doing this will also give you more
>  > confidence. You will find that most people on this list will accept
>  > guidance from their vet, but have more knowledge about raw and
>  > vaccines, heartworm and rabies than the vets do. They will not accept
>  > being told what to do by a vet, but will insist on an informed
>  > partnership. As soon as you know more, you will be visiting you vet a
>  > whole lot less!!
>  >
>  > I taught my vet tech about raw when she freaked at seeing what she
>  > though was a growth in the intestine in a hip x-ray. It was crushed
>  > bone from a chicken wing feast the night before...
>  >
>  > And if it is a convenience thing, try a local Global and Ryans for
>  > many different types of prepared raw food. They carry raw diets that
>  > are pure meat/bone/organ mixes without anything else. And eliminating
>  > the stupid carbs like apple, potato and carrot from the diet you are
>  > currently feeding will totally help the weight issues your dog is
>  > having.
>  >
>  > You never mentioned how the allergy is manifesting. Is it itchiness?
>  > lose stools?
>  >
>  > Have you fed any green tripe at all? Your dog could probably use the
>  > gut flora even if it caused a reaction..
>  >
>  > BTW, I was also told by a vet that one of my girls had a food allergy
>  > this spring. She had a hot red rash on the inside of her ears since
>  > January and was constantly scratching all over. We did an elimination
>  > diet and were able to determine that the vet was wrong. The changing
>  > diet did nothing. Yes, you read that right. We went through 3 months
>  > of isolating different proteins while watching the itching happen
>  > without improvement. We were stumped!
>  > It spontaneously resolved itself in July with the dog eating all the
>  > same foods she always ate. I determined that the "allergy" was an
>  > environmental issue in fact. Lack of humidity! It was the only thing
>  > that it could be. We now up the Arctic Vigor in the fall through the
>  > winter to help with this. No problems so far this year. We will see
>  > when January comes!!
>  >
>  > And you have seen the group consensus on feeding weight bearing
>  > support bones. We are still recommending that you don't do it,
>  > regardless of how hard you think your dog chews. If a dog is given a
>  > support bone that has been sliced to expose the marrow, the dog will
>  > try to get to the marrow. You don't have to worry that your dog will
>  > be able to do break the bone..he is not that strong. But he can put
>  > enough effort into it to break his own tooth...his tooth is not as
>  > dense as that bone and his jaw muscle is absolutely strong enough to
>  > break the tooth. And this is a very common thing. I know of 3 dogs
> off
>  > the top of my head.
>  >
>  > Be patient with all of these recommendations. I know it is
>  > overwhelming and time consuming, especially when you are trying to
> get
>  > through a learning curve about all of it. It would be so much nicer
> if
>  > this problem would just go away!
>  > But if you can get through the elimination diet and get the allergen
>  > is isolated, you may find more meat sources will be available to you,
>  > making the bone choices easier for you.
>  >
>  > There is a lot more information you need on the raw diet..like
>  > choosing and using a particular feeding model, proper bone/meat/organ
>  > proportions, creating balance across time, how to deal with loose
>  > stools from too much meat, constipation from too much bone, whether
> to
>  > including plant material or not, feeding fish, the need for green
>  > tripe, the medical implication of feeding raw..
>  >
>  > You may know a lot of this already. If not, just ask away and we will
>  > hand out more free advice.
>  >
>  > You are doing great! it will sort out soon!
>  >
>  > Sherri
>  >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or viewed
> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or links
> at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I bought this one off eBay last year, 2.4 HP, specifically mentions that
it will do WHOLE CHICKENS INCLUDING BONES and many testimonials from raw
feeders:



http://cgi.ebay.ca/3-SPEED-TURBOFORCE-1800W-2-4-HP-ELECTRIC-MEAT-GRINDER
_W0QQitemZ230390874011QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSmall_Kitchen_Appliances_US?has
h=item35a45dbf9b



It doesn't. Jams right up on bones even when I tried smaller chicken
pieces. Also couldn't handle whole fish. It IS good for regular large
chunks of meat though.



I used to have a Cuisinart, much lower HP, it did the trick, but they
went bankrupt. I've found it very difficult to even find commercial ones
that will do bone well, even my butcher says his heavy-duty one can't.
Even at several hundred dollars or more. One of the other lists
recommends Northern Pro, but even the $600 one is under 1 HP. So if you
do find something that works, I'd appreciate feedback form you as Ive
been looking for a replacement of my Cuisinart for years now



Viki

Cats Unlimited



"Hi group,

I am in the market for a grinder... just starting my research I will
need to grind, chicken quaters some pork riblets chicken necks do not
need to grind huge volumes but I want to invest in something that will
do the job and not break after some use.!! I live in Toronto but I can
order from the USA if I need to. Thanks for any info you can send me on
your experience and use of grinders.
Catherine"



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bass Pro has a heavy duty one and you can also check Cayne's Housewares in
Toronto.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In the US the only grinders that do not void warrantees for bone is Weston and
Eagle brands.
My Weston is a 1 hp  you might need a 1-1/2 for pork riblets to try....I like it
because it has a 3"
opening, the rest are smaller at around 2 " so one would have to cut pieces
smaller like legs and stuff.
All others if you do bone will void warrantee.
I have never ground pork riblets...those I have always fed whole for dogs to
chew.
I usually only grind for pups to start with.

Goldie



-----Original Message-----
From: Catherine <egaddabout@...>
To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, Nov 18, 2009 2:05 am
Subject: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Meat grinders




Hi group,

I am in the market for a grinder... just starting my research I will need to
grind, chicken quaters some pork riblets chicken necks do not need to grind huge
volumes but I want to invest in something that will do the job and not break
after some use.!! I live in Toronto but I can order from the USA if I need to.
Thanks for any info you can send me on your experience and use of grinders.
Catherine.







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

canadian tire has a waring pro meat grinder. Do NOT buy it.



To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
From: egaddabout@...
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:05:41 +0000
Subject: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Meat grinders





Hi group,

I am in the market for a grinder... just starting my research I will need to
grind, chicken quaters some pork riblets chicken necks do not need to grind huge
volumes but I want to invest in something that will do the job and not break
after some use.!! I live in Toronto but I can order from the USA if I need to.
Thanks for any info you can send me on your experience and use of grinders.
Catherine.





_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on
Facebook.
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691816

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't know about  in Toronto area but in Quebec they have  Restaurant
Outlets where  all the  Supplies  for  restaurants are  For Sale & OPEN to
the  Public... Look in your  yellow pages  for  Restaurant  Suppliers
perhaps... just an idea.

Karen
 
POLABEARAS  REG'd Kennel
White & Colored German Shepherds
www.polabearas.com
karensayers_2001@...
 




________________________________
From: Catherine <egaddabout@...>
To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 5:05:41 AM
Subject: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Meat grinders

 
Hi group,

I am in the market for a grinder... just starting my research I will need to
grind, chicken quaters some pork riblets chicken necks do not need to grind huge
volumes but I want to invest in something that will do the job and not break
after some use.!! I live in Toronto but I can order from the USA if I need to.
Thanks for any info you can send me on your experience and use of grinders.
Catherine.





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The new Internet Explorer® 8 - Faster, safer, easier.  Optimized for Yahoo! 
Get it Now for Free! at http://downloads.yahoo.com/ca/internetexplorer/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

LOL..I learned from dear friends,  mentors, patient contributors on
these forums and some research that I tend to overdo from scientific
journals on the internet.
Honestly, everything you need to know is in you already. You likely
don't trust yourself because of you may be relying on your vet to tell
you what to do.

Dogs are descended from grey wolves. Think about every National
Geographic show you ever watched with them in it and how they feed on
a carcass

There are a lot of differing thoughts on the value of incorporating
high amounts (20%)of plant material in the diet given that the wolves
omnivore activities are very, very limited.
I do not to feed plant material at all, but that is a personal
decision that I made and may change some day if I get info that makes
sense.
In your case, you are dealing with allergies ,it is tough to know with
all of the stuff in the processed food you are using what the dog
might be experiencing that might be contributing.
So I would be inclined to drop anything non-meat until the allergy is
definitively pinned down.

And I personally really, really hate when companies add certain foods
to the mix in an effort to market to human diet preferences. I think
they are being grossly misleading when they do this.
The old " if it is good for me, it must be good for the dog" game.

Is the feeding of ground prepared food a convenience thing for you?
The only pros of a ground diet is convenience for the owner. The
exception being dogs who can't chew whole pieces for some reason.

The cons to ground are the expense, the lack of muscle development
from the dog and the lack of metal stimulation that whole pieces
provide.

You can grind your own food too if you insist on ground. There are
many people who do it on the lists. They grind huge amounts and freeze
it. It ensures that you know what is going in and is ultimately cheaper.
You can also feed the whole pieces. Just buy some whole chickens or
pork ribs and feed them for a couple of weeks. Chicken leg quarters
are so cheap!
Make sure that there is organ with it (same species). Enjoy watching
your dogs evolve to tear at it, working their feet and shoulders as
they figure it out. You do really own little wolves!

As far as premade raw ground, I have no preference. Just pick one that
only has one kind of meat with bone and organ and nothing else in it
until this allergy thing is really pinned down. Global and Ryan has
been the only place I have seen that sell the pure ground meat.
Walmart and Petsmart all sell the mixes in the tubes.

Do you have any hunter friends? You might be able to get enough deer
meat to get you through the few weeks of an elimination diet, although
the organs might be tougher to get.
And i would try to freeze the organs for a bit to eliminate
parasites....

There are many books out on the market right now, Billinghurst,
Pitcairn, etc.. some of which need revision due to their age. Buy any
of them or hit a library, learn, then go back to asking more questions
and  relying on your gut.

One of the things I did was search for wolf diets at the zoos in North
America. I was surprised to see that they used cheap kibble and meat
from mice, rabbits and some took in the occasional deer. The kibble
seemed to be convenience because of the lack of $$ and meat suppliers.

My honest thought is to encourage you to stop being scared of whole
pieces or getting the diet right immediately. I can say this because
when I started, I was terrified, so I am assuming that you might be
going through the same thing.
Your dog will live through your learning curve and be healthier for
it....

I get my green tripe and most of my food from Sheila Service here in
Bowmanville. If she doesn't chime in, I can give you her email address
separately....
She gets the tripe whole, then freezes it and cuts it into blocks with
her meat saw.

There are other suppliers out there, depending on where you live.

My personal guide is $1 per pound. Some stuff is cheaper, some is
more. It works out in the end.

You are doing fine...really!!

Sherri

On 17-Nov-09, at 2:19 PM, Deborah wrote:

Thanks Sherri,

My God! My head is spinning now after reading this. I thought that,
since I haven't done as much research as I know I need to do, that
feeding the pre mixed would be better for the dogs at least for right
now. The vet did say that we could work together to construct a proper
diet plan for Aurora and is a big advocate of raw.

Man, I wish there was some sort of magic list of what to feed vs what
not to feed, ie feed these bones not those ones, don't feed this meat
because of this, feed this meat because of this.

Where did you all learn all of what you know?

Sherri, you mentioned that the brand I'm feeding is full of junk. Is
there another brand (or a few) that you could recommend?

Also, as for the green tripe: where does one get that? I'm assuming
you're not talking about the canned variety that you can buy in pet
shops, but rather some raw variety? Do you buy that frozen like the
prepared foods?

Aside from asking a bunch of annoying questions of this group, how
else might I become more informed about the raw diet? Are there
specific books you'd recommend? Websites with good info for newbies?

Thanks again for all your help so far,

Deb

--- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, Sherri Canjar
<aylastar@...> wrote:
  >
  > I think some if it depends on the smarts of the dog.
  > My 35 lb tollers eat turkey wing and necks. They stop a the hardest
  > part of the leg bone and leave it for me to collect. These bones have
  > no marrow so are hold no interest at that point.
  > They do the same thing with roaster pig skulls...I have to pick up
the
  > teeth in a small segment of jawbone when they are done.
  > Turkey ecks are just crushed.
  > re: wild boar. It's pig. If your dog is allergic to pig, they will
  > react. If they don't react, you don't have a pig allergy.
  > FYI. There has not been trich in the domestic swine herd in Canada
for
  > decades. I learned early this year that trich has not been in the
  > farmed wild boar population in canada for a long time either. This
  > info is on the Gov of Canada websites.
  >
  > Deborah, you have an unusual mix of knowledge about raw. You have
some
  > good knowledge about a few things that shows you are trying to get
  > your head around this and have been at it for a while, yet at the
same
  > time are asking questions about some pretty basic stuff.
  > For this reason, I am not convinced that you did an elimination diet.
  > This isn't meant to be adversarial, or insult you at all, or accuse
  > you of lying...not even a little bit.
  > You obviously care about your animals a lot and you have tried some
  > things to figure it out as you went along. You are asking excellent
  > questions and you are on the right track.
  >
  > It just that if you had done an elimination diet. you would learned a
  > lot feeding whole bone/meat/organs already and would not need to ask
  > some of the questions you have.
  >
  > I also just looked up the prepared food you are feeding. It has so
  > much "crap" in it, it isn't funny. If your dog reacted to the recipes
  > they have, I would not be surprised. That company is clearly another
  > dog food company trying to appeal to people by applying human dietary
  > requirements to dogs. No different than the marketing techniques of
  > the kibble manufacturers.
  >
  > Try Illona's elimination diet. I know it will be tough to do for 3
  > weeks. No dog cookies, treats, veggies or anything other than the
  > chosen protein source. And no cooking yet. If you can get the meat
  > types without preservatives (salt, bleach,nitrates), even better.
  > Start with whole chickens...quick, easy and cheap. Throw in some
  > chicken livers with it too. Doing this will also give you more
  > confidence. You will find that most people on this list will accept
  > guidance from their vet, but have more knowledge about raw and
  > vaccines, heartworm and rabies than the vets do. They will not accept
  > being told what to do by a vet, but will insist on an informed
  > partnership. As soon as you know more, you will be visiting you vet a
  > whole lot less!!
  >
  > I taught my vet tech about raw when she freaked at seeing what she
  > though was a growth in the intestine in a hip x-ray. It was crushed
  > bone from a chicken wing feast the night before...
  >
  > And if it is a convenience thing, try a local Global and Ryans for
  > many different types of prepared raw food. They carry raw diets that
  > are pure meat/bone/organ mixes without anything else. And eliminating
  > the stupid carbs like apple, potato and carrot from the diet you are
  > currently feeding will totally help the weight issues your dog is
  > having.
  >
  > You never mentioned how the allergy is manifesting. Is it itchiness?
  > lose stools?
  >
  > Have you fed any green tripe at all? Your dog could probably use the
  > gut flora even if it caused a reaction..
  >
  > BTW, I was also told by a vet that one of my girls had a food allergy
  > this spring. She had a hot red rash on the inside of her ears since
  > January and was constantly scratching all over. We did an elimination
  > diet and were able to determine that the vet was wrong. The changing
  > diet did nothing. Yes, you read that right. We went through 3 months
  > of isolating different proteins while watching the itching happen
  > without improvement. We were stumped!
  > It spontaneously resolved itself in July with the dog eating all the
  > same foods she always ate. I determined that the "allergy" was an
  > environmental issue in fact. Lack of humidity! It was the only thing
  > that it could be. We now up the Arctic Vigor in the fall through the
  > winter to help with this. No problems so far this year. We will see
  > when January comes!!
  >
  > And you have seen the group consensus on feeding weight bearing
  > support bones. We are still recommending that you don't do it,
  > regardless of how hard you think your dog chews. If a dog is given a
  > support bone that has been sliced to expose the marrow, the dog will
  > try to get to the marrow. You don't have to worry that your dog will
  > be able to do break the bone..he is not that strong. But he can put
  > enough effort into it to break his own tooth...his tooth is not as
  > dense as that bone and his jaw muscle is absolutely strong enough to
  > break the tooth. And this is a very common thing. I know of 3 dogs
off
  > the top of my head.
  >
  > Be patient with all of these recommendations. I know it is
  > overwhelming and time consuming, especially when you are trying to
get
  > through a learning curve about all of it. It would be so much nicer
if
  > this problem would just go away!
  > But if you can get through the elimination diet and get the allergen
  > is isolated, you may find more meat sources will be available to you,
  > making the bone choices easier for you.
  >
  > There is a lot more information you need on the raw diet..like
  > choosing and using a particular feeding model, proper bone/meat/organ
  > proportions, creating balance across time, how to deal with loose
  > stools from too much meat, constipation from too much bone, whether
to
  > including plant material or not, feeding fish, the need for green
  > tripe, the medical implication of feeding raw..
  >
  > You may know a lot of this already. If not, just ask away and we will
  > hand out more free advice.
  >
  > You are doing great! it will sort out soon!
  >
  > Sherri
  >






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi group,

I am in the market for a grinder... just starting my research I will need to
grind, chicken quaters some pork riblets chicken necks do not need to grind huge
volumes but I want to invest in something that will do the job and not break
after some use.!! I live in Toronto but I can order from the USA if I need to.
Thanks for any info you can send me on your experience and use of grinders.
Catherine.

just a note: please trim your posts ... i.e., delete any parts of emails
you're not directly responding to.  thanks

Deb wrote:
>But there's GOT to be more out there.  I mean, really, someone must be
>farming bison, elk, (and
>a whole bunch of other animals I can't think of right now) etc., because
>you can buy that meat in
>ground form in the pet store.  So there must be someone somewhere that
>sells it.

yup, there's lots out there, but it takes work to find it.  trust me, the
hardest part about raw can be sourcing.  there are elk farmers, bison
farmer, even deer farmers ... it takes work to find them and to potentially
build a rel'shp with them.   elk can be very expensive, as i'm sure bison
and farmed venison is.

i get my venison from a butcher who trims for hunters.  it's a HELL of a lot
of work on my part ... a couple long trips every week during hunting season,
and then 3-5 hours of work in the garage the night of my pickups.   i also
work very hard to maintain the rel'shp i have with my guy, including paying
him for the "storage" of the meat, supplying him with big pails every year,
and being a regular customer for his grass-fed beef (for us humans).

yeah, it's hard.  it's work.  it's cunning.  it's wheeling and dealing.  but
the stuff is out there.

illona
www.scruffydogphotography.com
www.scruffydogphotography.com/blog

Kim wrote:
>Goat would be good if you're sure there is absolutely nothing else in it. I
>haven't fed goat before so I'm not really sure, but it's possible the ribs
>or neck bones would be edible if you were to find actual goat meat that
>hasn't been packaged.

i'd  be surprised if you could find goat for a reasonable price ... and if
it IS affordable, i'd be concerned about the age of the animal ... and the
older the animal the harder the bones, and they juts don't digest very
readily.

i've fed goat and trust me, i've bought my share of whole goats.  for them
to be even remotely affordable, they are generally older than i'd want ...
AND you must remember that a lot of goats aren't very meaty.  generally the
ones you can afford are either too old or too skinny ... and you'll need to
add meat to those boney meals.

if your dog can do turkey, i'd definitely go that route.  simply cut out the
harder bones, especially legs.  but YOU have to judge whether those necks
are safe.  i fed my share of necks when i could feed turkey, and never had a
problem.  the only choking incident i had was with pork ... too much to
explain ... but it almost killed my little guy if not for me flipping him
over and doing an inverted heimlich.  pretty scary.

if you're that worried about necks, you can always hammer them up a bit
(well, a lot) and crush the bones so that it's more like marbles in meat.
heck, you could even hack it up into bitesized bites if you're really
nervous.  good luck finding a grinder to handle some of those big turkey
necks.  :)

but for me and my experience with goat ... good luck.  if they're not very
young goats (under a year), those bones get hard and aren't my choice for
consumable bone.  i've seen what the ribs look like coming out the rear end
when the goat is older.  not pretty.

FWIW,
illona
www.scruffydogphotography.com
www.scruffydogphotography.com/blog

Something else to consider, collies can get a rare skin disease called
Dermatomyositis. Being a mix your dog could have some collie in her. You
should also look into Staphylococcal bacterial infections and yeast
infections and have them all ruled out by your vet.

Kim  Peters
Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
www.dogsbehaven.com




2009/11/17 Deborah <deborahcalvert@...>

> She's a mix - anyone's best guess is beagle/border collie/australian
> shepherd mix.
>
> No one ever even suggested scraping for suspected staph overgrowth.  What
> exactly is it?  Do you mean they get the staph infection in their skin?
>  Does that then mean that antibiotics are in order?
>
> --- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, Flatcoatkim <flatcoatkim@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Oops, meant to say that it sounds like there are possibly food and
> seasonal
> > allergies going on, but this is very common. The other thing you may want
> to
> > consider is having her skin scraped for staph overgrowth which can easily
> > happen with an itchy dog.
> >
> > What breed is she?
> >
> > Kim  Peters
> > Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> > www.dogsbehaven.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2009/11/17 Flatcoatkim <flatcoatkim@...>
> >
> > > Hi Deb,
> > >
> > > By the sounds of it you've tried a lot of things, but still haven't
> done a
> > > true elimination diet. Unless you've done this you can't know for sure
> what
> > > she's allergic to.
> > >
> > > Also I believe if the dog has had a reaction to the rabies vaccine you
> can
> > > get an exemption for it from your vet.
> > >
> > > Kim  Peters
> > > Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> > > www.dogsbehaven.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2009/11/17 Deborah <deborahcalvert@...>
> > >
> > >
> > >>  "i l l o n a" <illona@> wrote:
> > >> >can i ask what you were feeding for that elimination diet?  i think a
> > >> proper elimination diet - in raw - is your only way to know for sure
> what
> > >> she is allergic to or intolerant to.  you can't do an elimination diet
> on
> > >> kibbles or premade diets (raw or otherwise) ... there's just no way.
>  there
> > >> are too many other ingredients and factors (like it being cooked vs.
> raw) to
> > >> have any idea what she truly is reacting to.
> > >>
> > >> She was on kibble all her life and always had seasonal allergies.
>  Then
> > >> there came a point where the allergy symptoms weren't stopping through
> the
> > >> winter like they used to.  And allergy meds weren't helping anymore.
>  Then
> > >> she started having some hair loss, her nose was very dry and would
> crack,
> > >> her ears were constantly red and inflamed but not infected (was at the
> vets
> > >> many many times for her ears).  Then the little spot of skin just
> above her
> > >> lips but below her nose started to look irritated and she started
> vomiting
> > >> occasionally, which was strange because she was really not a vomiter.
> > >>
> > >> I had been at the vet many times for each of these symptoms
> individually
> > >> and he never once suggested a food allergy.  It was I that came up
> with the
> > >> idea.  He agreed, and told me to eliminate beef, chicken, wheat, corn,
> > >> dairy, eggs, and soy from her diet.  I did that, and all the symptoms
> > >> disappeared.  I kept her on kibble, but it was a kibble free of those
> > >> ingredients.
> > >>
> > >> Then I started offering those foods to her -- chicken, beef. I didn't
> try
> > >> feeding her the grains or the soy.  She did react to the chicken and
> to the
> > >> beef.  She has also reacted to cheese and yogurt with itchy ears and
> an
> > >> itchy snout, which I took to assume means all dairy.  The beef
> reaction was
> > >> within minutes of consuming (raw beef bones at a friend's house) and
> her
> > >> ears became very red and hives developed inside her ear flaps.
> > >>
> > >> She put on weight on the kibble I had her on, so I switched her to a
> low
> > >> fat lamb based kibble (that I had checked did not confirm any of the
> > >> aforementioned ingredients).  Within a few days her ears were red
> again,
> > >> nose started to dry out and crack, and the vomiting returned.
> > >>
> > >> Took her off that food and put her on a veggie based kibble.  Symptoms
> > >> improved but she put on more weight again.  Switched her to a venison
> and
> > >> sweet potato formula and she did ok but I still couldn't take that
> weight
> > >> off her.  I've always had my 2nd dog on whatever diet the allergic dog
> was
> > >> on, just because it makes life easier, and reduces the chance of
> Aurora (the
> > >> allergic girl) consuming an allergen by getting into Daphne's (the
> other
> > >> dog) food.
> > >>
> > >> Then because I didn't know what else I could give this poor girl to
> chew
> > >> on, I would occasionally give a pig's ear or a porkhide bone.  For
> months
> > >> she was fine and within the last few weeks the allergy (skin and
> stomache)
> > >> issues have redeveloped.
> > >>
> > >> So, finally a couple of weeks ago I called the holistic vet that my
> friend
> > >> takes her dog to.  He told me that she should have no more vaccines
> unless
> > >> absolutely necessary (ie rabies every three years - because of city by
> law),
> > >> given no more meds that aren't homeopathic, and should be put on as
> natural
> > >> a diet as possible.  He said to me "try one of the pre-mixed brands of
> raw
> > >> diet until you get your head around the raw diet and how to feed" and
> then
> > >> he suggested I try and obtain a copy of the book The Barf Diet (Ian
> > >> Billinger I think???).
> > >>
> > >> In mid December she goes back to the holistic vet for tests from which
> he
> > >> says we'll work to construct a specific diet for Aurora for her
> allergies
> > >> and her weight issues, but he did say I might even see pounds "fall
> off" her
> > >> once she'd been on raw for a little while and no longer has any grains
> in
> > >> her diet.
> > >>
> > >> Then he told me to go and get her some recreational bones.  Aurora has
> > >> always had some anxiety issues, and my previous vet had advised
> against any
> > >> kinds of bones because of the extra calories and her weight problem.
>  I
> > >> sometimes gave them anyway, because sometimes she REALLY needed to
> chew.
> > >>  Anyway the new (holisitc) vet feels that it's crazy not to let a dog
> have
> > >> bones because it's  natural stress and anxiety relief.
> > >>
> > >> So that's pretty much my story.
> > >>
> > >> I do have a second dog, Daphne, she's a 25 pound cocker spaniel.  Both
> are
> > >> adjusting well to the raw diet and actually REALLY loving it.  I'm
> offering
> > >> it only three or four tablespoonfuls at a time in their bowls because
> > >> they've been absolutely inhaling it.  Seems they like the taste.
> > >>
> > >> I offered them the boar bones I bought on Saturday, before I had come
> back
> > >> to this list and saw the responses.  Anyway, yes, in hindsight, it
> turns out
> > >> that Boar is the same (or similar enough) protein to Pork, and Aurora
> > >> reacted terribly.  Terrible terrible watery diarhea, and very itchy
> ears and
> > >> face.  Damn.  I guess I had thought maybe boar and pork would be like
> > >> chicken and turkey -- same family but different enough proteins that
> she can
> > >> react to one but not the other.  Boy was I wrong, lesson learned.
> > >>
> > >> And also, apparently Aurora is a MUCH more powerful chewer than I
> thought.
> > >>  After a few minutes, she caught on, and definitely knew how to devour
> those
> > >> bones.  Too bad they didn't agree with her.
> > >>
> > >> Deb
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > and how is she reacting? skin? or gastrointestinal?  skin and
> itching,
> > >> licking etc. can all be environmental as much as it's food ... then
> again,
> > >> it really doesn't make sense to try to guess if you're feeding premade
> foods
> > >> with so many ingredients.  it could be anything.
> > >> >
> > >> > of course, there are ways to assume allergies if it comes on more
> > >> seasonally but again, with a proper diet, a fair bit of that seasonal
> stuff
> > >> will diminish because the immune system is healthier and can handle
> those
> > >> allergins from season to season.  i've seen this in my own senior JRT
> > >> (adopted at 9 yrs old over 5 yrs ago).  his seasonal allergies (skin)
> were a
> > >> nightmare for those first couple of years ... as each year passes he
> handles
> > >> them better and in the past year has had no changes from spring to
> fall.
> > >>  nada.
> > >> >
> > >> > if we had a better idea how this dog is reacting, we might be able
> to
> > >> help.
> > >> >
> > >> > >I'm not too too concerned about tooth breakage on bones because I
> know
> > >> my dogs aren't powerful chewers and they don't try to actually consume
> > >> bones.
> > >> >
> > >> > so i take it you have a second dog?  how is he/she adapting to raw?
> > >> >
> > >> > and i agree with Sherri ... even though they're not destroying the
> leg
> > >> bone (marrow bone) it's still causing unnecessary wear and tear on the
> > >> teeth, and the potential for chips or a slab fracture.  it's just not
> > >> something i would do, and again, it's based on experience.
> > >> >
> > >> > if it's an uncut leg bone, knuckle to knuckle, you're way better
> off.
> > >>  but of course, you can't do that with beef!  :)  dinosaur bone!  lamb
> or
> > >> goat or even venison could get you a more manageable-sized
> > >> knuckle-to-knuckle bone.
> > >> >
> > >> > >Illona, if you have access to venison bones, I'd gladly buy some
> from
> > >> you.  I can drive to Kitchener, or meet you part way and contribute to
> gas
> > >> or something :o)
> > >> >
> > >> > I can certainly get some for you, but are you sure she'd do okay
> with
> > >> venison?  i'd also need to know what you wanted, since i don't have
> any use
> > >> for the bones and don't want to be stuck with extras.  as i said, i
> take
> > >> neck bones because they're the best chewing ... but he doesn't always
> have a
> > >> lot of those.   i'm probably doing another pick up tomorrow (Tuesday)
> so
> > >> they'd have to be picked up Tues evening ... possibly Wed if the
> weather
> > >> stays cool.
> > >> >
> > >> > let me know
> > >> > illona
> > >> > www.scruffydogphotography.com
> > >> > www.scruffydogphotography.com/blog
> > >> >
> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> > >> Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
> viewed
> > >> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or
> links
> > >> at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > >> Groups Links
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or viewed
> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or links
> at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Look here:

http://www.carnivora.ca/

or

http://www.springmeadowsnaturalpetfood.com/



Kim  Peters
Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
www.dogsbehaven.com




2009/11/17 Deborah Calvert <deborahcalvert@...>

>
> I actually noticed yesterday when I went to a Tim Horton's near my mom's
> place, that there's an ethnic food store in the plaza with the Tim's.  There
> was signage indicating fresh meat, definitely said goat, maybe rabbit, and
> some other things I can't remember.  Maybe I should pop in that store and
> see what they've got.  My dog has definitely never had goat before.
>
>
>
> And I just can't bring myself to feed rabbit, on moral grounds, because I
> have a rabbit.  Just can't.
>
>
>
> But there's GOT to be more out there.  I mean, really, someone must be
> farming bison, elk, (and a whole bunch of other animals I can't think of
> right now) etc., because you can buy that meat in ground form in the pet
> store.  So there must be someone somewhere that sells it.
>
>
>
> To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
> From: flatcoatkim@...
> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:00:33 -0500
> Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with Questions
>
>
>
>
>
> Goat would be good if you're sure there is absolutely nothing else in it. I
> haven't fed goat before so I'm not really sure, but it's possible the ribs
> or neck bones would be edible if you were to find actual goat meat that
> hasn't been packaged.
>
> Yes, you would feed bones in general, but not weight bearing bones of large
> animals. Weight bearing bones can only be fed from animals your dog could
> reasonably kill/eat in the wild such as rabbit, chicken (not that we have
> wild chickens!) mouse, fish (not that fish have weight bearing bones!) you
> get the idea. Add in organ meat after the dog is used to that protein
> otherwise you could end up with diarrhea. Only add a bit of organ meat per
> day. Heart is a muscle meat, not organ. Organ meat is mainly liver and
> kidney.
>
> Do not do the tripe idea since your dog has already been fed beef before.
>
> Kim Peters
> Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> www.dogsbehaven.com
>
> 2009/11/17 Deborah Calvert <deborahcalvert@...>
>
> >
> > Oh, my apologies. I didn't realize the "no bones" was specifically in
> > reference to the turkey diet. I thought you meant in general for an
> > elimination diet.
> >
> >
> >
> > Well that, what if I were to pick a different meat source? Goat for
> > example. Would I feed the bones and organs in that case?
> >
> >
> >
> > And, of course you guys are right. I *thought* I had done an elmination
> > diet previously but, according to this definition of the elimination
> diet,
> > clearly I haven't done.
> >
> >
> >
> > One more question: So, if I buy, say "ground goat meat" from the pet
> > store, it's actually NOT 100% ground goat? Even if that's what the
> package
> > reads?
> >
> >
> >
> > Sorry for asking so many questions, and I really really appreciate
> > everyone's help.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> >
> >
> > Deb
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
> > From: flatcoatkim@...
> > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:49:23 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with Questions
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I think we just discussed this on the main list last week (this thread
> > should actually be there). Turkey bones are quite strong and brittle.
> There
> > is a huge choking hazard with them.The dog may seem fine with turkey
> bones
> > for ever and ever, until one day there is a problem, then it's too late.
> > The
> > diet should be alright without bone since it's only 2 weeks. The only
> time
> > you'd need to worry is if the dog has diarrhea.
> >
> > Doesn't make a difference if it's cooked or raw, but don't use commercial
> > products from the pet store, even if they say they are turkey, because
> they
> > definitely have more in them than just turkey. Incidentally my dogs get
> the
> > runs from cooked turkey, but not raw. So be careful with that.
> >
> > Kim Peters
> > Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> > www.dogsbehaven.com
> >
> > 2009/11/17 Deborah Calvert <deborahcalvert@...>
> >
> > >
> > > Ok, I understand about the "only turkey" rule. But, why the "no bones"
> > > rule? No turkey bones? Just the meat? No ground bones even? No organs?
> > > Won't that be nutritionally deficient?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Also, does it make a difference whether or not the turkey is cooked or
> > raw?
> > > I'm thinking in terms of treats, could I offer small pieces of cooked
> > > turkey for training rewards?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
> > > From: flatcoatkim@...
> > > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:56:18 -0500
> > > Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with
> Questions
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sounds good. Stick with ONLY turkey for at least 2 weeks, or until
> > allergy
> > > symptoms clear up. Do not feed the bones though. If new allergy
> symptoms
> > > develop discontinue immediately.
> > >
> > > No dog biscuits, no kibble, no other meat, no bones to chew, no human
> > > leftovers, no dog poop (lol), nothing but the turkey.
> > >
> > > Check back after it's been 2 weeks, or before that if symptoms appear.
> > >
> > > Kim Peters
> > > Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> > > www.dogsbehaven.com
> > >
> > > 2009/11/17 Deborah <deborahcalvert@...>
> > >
> > > > Sounds super easy!
> > > >
> > > > I'll give it a try.
> > > >
> > > > Well, turkey is a novel protein I think; I don't believe I ever fed
> it
> > > > before (but I've been feeding it the last few days). I guess I should
> > > start
> > > > there?
> > > >
> > > > --- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, Flatcoatkim
> <flatcoatkim@
> > > ...>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Deb, here is the basics of a proper elimination diet, that
> absolutely
> > > > must
> > > > > be done.
> > > > >
> > > > > Find a novel protein (new source of meat this dog has never had).
> > > Sounds
> > > > > like for you a good choice might be rabbit.
> > > > >
> > > > > Feed this for about 2 weeks. GIVE NOTHING ELSE BUT THE RABBIT, OR
> > OTHER
> > > > NEW
> > > > > SOURCE OF PROTEIN. The dog should not even have biscuits, rec
> bones,
> > or
> > > > any
> > > > > other type of snacks. If you notice signs of allergy, discontinue
> > this
> > > > meat.
> > > > > If the dog had allergy symptoms before starting this meat but
> nothing
> > > new
> > > > > has started, keep going with this meat until allergy symptoms clear
> > up.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's important to start with no symptoms before moving on to
> another
> > > meat
> > > > > source. Once symptoms are gone, choose another protein and stick
> with
> > > > that
> > > > > and only that (plus the first meat if you've deemed it to be safe)
> > for
> > > at
> > > > > least 2 weeks. If you notice symptoms discontinue that meat
> > > immediately.
> > > > > Some people say 1 week is fine, but often symptoms take longer than
> > one
> > > > week
> > > > > to appear.
> > > > >
> > > > > The next week try one more new thing but keep the first meat if it
> > > worked
> > > > > alright as well as the second if it worked alright.
> > > > >
> > > > > Eventually you'll get a good idea of what the dog is allergic to.
> > Check
> > > > skin
> > > > > everywhere, itchiness, yeasty ears, red feet.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sound easy enough?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Kim Peters
> > > > > Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> > > > > www.dogsbehaven.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2009/11/17 Deborah <deborahcalvert@...>
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Sherri,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My God! My head is spinning now after reading this. I thought
> that,
> > > > since
> > > > > > I haven't done as much research as I know I need to do, that
> > feeding
> > > > the pre
> > > > > > mixed would be better for the dogs at least for right now. The
> vet
> > > did
> > > > say
> > > > > > that we could work together to construct a proper diet plan for
> > > Aurora
> > > > and
> > > > > > is a big advocate of raw.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Man, I wish there was some sort of magic list of what to feed vs
> > what
> > > > not
> > > > > > to feed, ie feed these bones not those ones, don't feed this meat
> > > > because of
> > > > > > this, feed this meat because of this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Where did you all learn all of what you know?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sherri, you mentioned that the brand I'm feeding is full of junk.
> > Is
> > > > there
> > > > > > another brand (or a few) that you could recommend?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, as for the green tripe: where does one get that? I'm
> assuming
> > > > > > you're not talking about the canned variety that you can buy in
> pet
> > > > shops,
> > > > > > but rather some raw variety? Do you buy that frozen like the
> > prepared
> > > > > > foods?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Aside from asking a bunch of annoying questions of this group,
> how
> > > else
> > > > > > might I become more informed about the raw diet? Are there
> specific
> > > > books
> > > > > > you'd recommend? Websites with good info for newbies?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks again for all your help so far,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Deb
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, Sherri Canjar
> > > <aylastar@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think some if it depends on the smarts of the dog.
> > > > > > > My 35 lb tollers eat turkey wing and necks. They stop a the
> > hardest
> > > > > > > part of the leg bone and leave it for me to collect. These
> bones
> > > have
> > > > > > > no marrow so are hold no interest at that point.
> > > > > > > They do the same thing with roaster pig skulls...I have to pick
> > up
> > > > the
> > > > > > > teeth in a small segment of jawbone when they are done.
> > > > > > > Turkey ecks are just crushed.
> > > > > > > re: wild boar. It's pig. If your dog is allergic to pig, they
> > will
> > > > > > > react. If they don't react, you don't have a pig allergy.
> > > > > > > FYI. There has not been trich in the domestic swine herd in
> > Canada
> > > > for
> > > > > > > decades. I learned early this year that trich has not been in
> the
> > > > > > > farmed wild boar population in canada for a long time either.
> > This
> > > > > > > info is on the Gov of Canada websites.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Deborah, you have an unusual mix of knowledge about raw. You
> have
> > > > some
> > > > > > > good knowledge about a few things that shows you are trying to
> > get
> > > > > > > your head around this and have been at it for a while, yet at
> the
> > > > same
> > > > > > > time are asking questions about some pretty basic stuff.
> > > > > > > For this reason, I am not convinced that you did an elimination
> > > diet.
> > > > > > > This isn't meant to be adversarial, or insult you at all, or
> > accuse
> > > > > > > you of lying...not even a little bit.
> > > > > > > You obviously care about your animals a lot and you have tried
> > some
> > > > > > > things to figure it out as you went along. You are asking
> > excellent
> > > > > > > questions and you are on the right track.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It just that if you had done an elimination diet. you would
> > learned
> > > a
> > > > > > > lot feeding whole bone/meat/organs already and would not need
> to
> > > ask
> > > > > > > some of the questions you have.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I also just looked up the prepared food you are feeding. It has
> > so
> > > > > > > much "crap" in it, it isn't funny. If your dog reacted to the
> > > recipes
> > > > > > > they have, I would not be surprised. That company is clearly
> > > another
> > > > > > > dog food company trying to appeal to people by applying human
> > > dietary
> > > > > > > requirements to dogs. No different than the marketing
> techniques
> > of
> > > > > > > the kibble manufacturers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Try Illona's elimination diet. I know it will be tough to do
> for
> > 3
> > > > > > > weeks. No dog cookies, treats, veggies or anything other than
> the
> > > > > > > chosen protein source. And no cooking yet. If you can get the
> > meat
> > > > > > > types without preservatives (salt, bleach,nitrates), even
> better.
> > > > > > > Start with whole chickens...quick, easy and cheap. Throw in
> some
> > > > > > > chicken livers with it too. Doing this will also give you more
> > > > > > > confidence. You will find that most people on this list will
> > accept
> > > > > > > guidance from their vet, but have more knowledge about raw and
> > > > > > > vaccines, heartworm and rabies than the vets do. They will not
> > > accept
> > > > > > > being told what to do by a vet, but will insist on an informed
> > > > > > > partnership. As soon as you know more, you will be visiting you
> > vet
> > > a
> > > > > > > whole lot less!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I taught my vet tech about raw when she freaked at seeing what
> > she
> > > > > > > though was a growth in the intestine in a hip x-ray. It was
> > crushed
> > > > > > > bone from a chicken wing feast the night before...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And if it is a convenience thing, try a local Global and Ryans
> > for
> > > > > > > many different types of prepared raw food. They carry raw diets
> > > that
> > > > > > > are pure meat/bone/organ mixes without anything else. And
> > > > eliminating
> > > > > > > the stupid carbs like apple, potato and carrot from the diet
> you
> > > are
> > > > > > > currently feeding will totally help the weight issues your dog
> is
> > > > > > > having.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You never mentioned how the allergy is manifesting. Is it
> > > itchiness?
> > > > > > > lose stools?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have you fed any green tripe at all? Your dog could probably
> use
> > > the
> > > > > > > gut flora even if it caused a reaction..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > BTW, I was also told by a vet that one of my girls had a food
> > > allergy
> > > > > > > this spring. She had a hot red rash on the inside of her ears
> > since
> > > > > > > January and was constantly scratching all over. We did an
> > > elimination
> > > > > > > diet and were able to determine that the vet was wrong. The
> > > changing
> > > > > > > diet did nothing. Yes, you read that right. We went through 3
> > > months
> > > > > > > of isolating different proteins while watching the itching
> happen
> > > > > > > without improvement. We were stumped!
> > > > > > > It spontaneously resolved itself in July with the dog eating
> all
> > > the
> > > > > > > same foods she always ate. I determined that the "allergy" was
> an
> > > > > > > environmental issue in fact. Lack of humidity! It was the only
> > > thing
> > > > > > > that it could be. We now up the Arctic Vigor in the fall
> through
> > > the
> > > > > > > winter to help with this. No problems so far this year. We will
> > see
> > > > > > > when January comes!!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And you have seen the group consensus on feeding weight bearing
> > > > > > > support bones. We are still recommending that you don't do it,
> > > > > > > regardless of how hard you think your dog chews. If a dog is
> > given
> > > a
> > > > > > > support bone that has been sliced to expose the marrow, the dog
> > > will
> > > > > > > try to get to the marrow. You don't have to worry that your dog
> > > will
> > > > > > > be able to do break the bone..he is not that strong. But he can
> > put
> > > > > > > enough effort into it to break his own tooth...his tooth is not
> > as
> > > > > > > dense as that bone and his jaw muscle is absolutely strong
> enough
> > > to
> > > > > > > break the tooth. And this is a very common thing. I know of 3
> > dogs
> > > > off
> > > > > > > the top of my head.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Be patient with all of these recommendations. I know it is
> > > > > > > overwhelming and time consuming, especially when you are trying
> > to
> > > > get
> > > > > > > through a learning curve about all of it. It would be so much
> > nicer
> > > > if
> > > > > > > this problem would just go away!
> > > > > > > But if you can get through the elimination diet and get the
> > > allergen
> > > > > > > is isolated, you may find more meat sources will be available
> to
> > > you,
> > > > > > > making the bone choices easier for you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is a lot more information you need on the raw diet..like
> > > > > > > choosing and using a particular feeding model, proper
> > > bone/meat/organ
> > > > > > > proportions, creating balance across time, how to deal with
> loose
> > > > > > > stools from too much meat, constipation from too much bone,
> > whether
> > > > to
> > > > > > > including plant material or not, feeding fish, the need for
> green
> > > > > > > tripe, the medical implication of feeding raw..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You may know a lot of this already. If not, just ask away and
> we
> > > will
> > > > > > > hand out more free advice.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You are doing great! it will sort out soon!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sherri
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or
> requests!
> > > > > > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted
> or
> > > > viewed
> > > > > > at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/and/or
> > > > links
> > > > > > at
>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > > > > > Groups Links
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> > > > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
> > > viewed
> > > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or
> > > links
> > > > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > > > Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> > > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
> > viewed
> > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or
> > links
> > > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > > Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
> viewed
> > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or
> links
> > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or viewed
> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or links
> at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here are some guidelines for you to go by:

50% RMB's (Raw Meaty Bones - half bone / half meat)
40% Muscle meat (roasts, thighs, chops, steaks, anything without bone
10% organ meat
Fish counts as meat.

This is a general guideline. For my dogs the 50% RMB is too much and they
get constipated.




Kim  Peters
Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
www.dogsbehaven.com




2009/11/17 Flatcoatkim <flatcoatkim@...>

> Goat would be good if you're sure there is absolutely nothing else in it. I
> haven't fed goat before so I'm not really sure, but it's possible the ribs
> or neck bones would be edible if you were to find actual goat meat that
> hasn't been packaged.
>
> Yes, you would feed bones in general, but not weight bearing bones of large
> animals. Weight bearing bones can only be fed from animals your dog could
> reasonably kill/eat in the wild such as rabbit, chicken (not that we have
> wild chickens!) mouse, fish (not that fish have weight bearing bones!) you
> get the idea. Add in organ meat after the dog is used to that protein
> otherwise you could end up with diarrhea. Only add a bit of organ meat per
> day. Heart is a muscle meat, not organ. Organ meat is mainly liver and
> kidney.
>
> Do not do the tripe idea since your dog has already been fed beef before.
>
> Kim  Peters
> Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> www.dogsbehaven.com
>
>
>
>
> 2009/11/17 Deborah Calvert <deborahcalvert@...>
>
>>
>> Oh, my apologies.  I didn't realize the "no bones" was specifically in
>> reference to the turkey diet.  I thought you meant in general for an
>> elimination diet.
>>
>>
>>
>> Well that, what if I were to pick a different meat source?  Goat for
>> example.  Would I feed the bones and organs in that case?
>>
>>
>>
>> And, of course you guys are right.  I *thought* I had done an elmination
>> diet previously but, according to this definition of the elimination diet,
>> clearly I haven't done.
>>
>>
>>
>> One more question:  So, if I buy, say "ground goat meat" from the pet
>> store, it's actually NOT 100% ground goat?  Even if that's what the package
>> reads?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry for asking so many questions, and I really really appreciate
>> everyone's help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you!
>>
>>
>>
>> Deb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
>> From: flatcoatkim@...
>> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:49:23 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with Questions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think we just discussed this on the main list last week (this thread
>> should actually be there). Turkey bones are quite strong and brittle.
>> There
>> is a huge choking hazard with them.The dog may seem fine with turkey bones
>> for ever and ever, until one day there is a problem, then it's too late.
>> The
>> diet should be alright without bone since it's only 2 weeks. The only time
>> you'd need to worry is if the dog has diarrhea.
>>
>> Doesn't make a difference if it's cooked or raw, but don't use commercial
>> products from the pet store, even if they say they are turkey, because
>> they
>> definitely have more in them than just turkey. Incidentally my dogs get
>> the
>> runs from cooked turkey, but not raw. So be careful with that.
>>
>> Kim Peters
>> Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
>> www.dogsbehaven.com
>>
>> 2009/11/17 Deborah Calvert <deborahcalvert@...>
>>
>> >
>> > Ok, I understand about the "only turkey" rule. But, why the "no bones"
>> > rule? No turkey bones? Just the meat? No ground bones even? No organs?
>> > Won't that be nutritionally deficient?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Also, does it make a difference whether or not the turkey is cooked or
>> raw?
>> > I'm thinking in terms of treats, could I offer small pieces of cooked
>> > turkey for training rewards?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
>> > From: flatcoatkim@...
>> > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:56:18 -0500
>> > Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with Questions
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Sounds good. Stick with ONLY turkey for at least 2 weeks, or until
>> allergy
>> > symptoms clear up. Do not feed the bones though. If new allergy symptoms
>> > develop discontinue immediately.
>> >
>> > No dog biscuits, no kibble, no other meat, no bones to chew, no human
>> > leftovers, no dog poop (lol), nothing but the turkey.
>> >
>> > Check back after it's been 2 weeks, or before that if symptoms appear.
>> >
>> > Kim Peters
>> > Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
>> > www.dogsbehaven.com
>> >
>> > 2009/11/17 Deborah <deborahcalvert@...>
>> >
>> > > Sounds super easy!
>> > >
>> > > I'll give it a try.
>> > >
>> > > Well, turkey is a novel protein I think; I don't believe I ever fed it
>> > > before (but I've been feeding it the last few days). I guess I should
>> > start
>> > > there?
>> > >
>> > > --- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, Flatcoatkim
>> <flatcoatkim@
>> > ...>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Deb, here is the basics of a proper elimination diet, that
>> absolutely
>> > > must
>> > > > be done.
>> > > >
>> > > > Find a novel protein (new source of meat this dog has never had).
>> > Sounds
>> > > > like for you a good choice might be rabbit.
>> > > >
>> > > > Feed this for about 2 weeks. GIVE NOTHING ELSE BUT THE RABBIT, OR
>> OTHER
>> > > NEW
>> > > > SOURCE OF PROTEIN. The dog should not even have biscuits, rec bones,
>> or
>> > > any
>> > > > other type of snacks. If you notice signs of allergy, discontinue
>> this
>> > > meat.
>> > > > If the dog had allergy symptoms before starting this meat but
>> nothing
>> > new
>> > > > has started, keep going with this meat until allergy symptoms clear
>> up.
>> > > >
>> > > > It's important to start with no symptoms before moving on to another
>> > meat
>> > > > source. Once symptoms are gone, choose another protein and stick
>> with
>> > > that
>> > > > and only that (plus the first meat if you've deemed it to be safe)
>> for
>> > at
>> > > > least 2 weeks. If you notice symptoms discontinue that meat
>> > immediately.
>> > > > Some people say 1 week is fine, but often symptoms take longer than
>> one
>> > > week
>> > > > to appear.
>> > > >
>> > > > The next week try one more new thing but keep the first meat if it
>> > worked
>> > > > alright as well as the second if it worked alright.
>> > > >
>> > > > Eventually you'll get a good idea of what the dog is allergic to.
>> Check
>> > > skin
>> > > > everywhere, itchiness, yeasty ears, red feet.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Sound easy enough?
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Kim Peters
>> > > > Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
>> > > > www.dogsbehaven.com
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > 2009/11/17 Deborah <deborahcalvert@...>
>> > > >
>> > > > > Thanks Sherri,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > My God! My head is spinning now after reading this. I thought
>> that,
>> > > since
>> > > > > I haven't done as much research as I know I need to do, that
>> feeding
>> > > the pre
>> > > > > mixed would be better for the dogs at least for right now. The vet
>> > did
>> > > say
>> > > > > that we could work together to construct a proper diet plan for
>> > Aurora
>> > > and
>> > > > > is a big advocate of raw.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Man, I wish there was some sort of magic list of what to feed vs
>> what
>> > > not
>> > > > > to feed, ie feed these bones not those ones, don't feed this meat
>> > > because of
>> > > > > this, feed this meat because of this.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Where did you all learn all of what you know?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Sherri, you mentioned that the brand I'm feeding is full of junk.
>> Is
>> > > there
>> > > > > another brand (or a few) that you could recommend?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Also, as for the green tripe: where does one get that? I'm
>> assuming
>> > > > > you're not talking about the canned variety that you can buy in
>> pet
>> > > shops,
>> > > > > but rather some raw variety? Do you buy that frozen like the
>> prepared
>> > > > > foods?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Aside from asking a bunch of annoying questions of this group, how
>> > else
>> > > > > might I become more informed about the raw diet? Are there
>> specific
>> > > books
>> > > > > you'd recommend? Websites with good info for newbies?
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Thanks again for all your help so far,
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Deb
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > --- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, Sherri Canjar
>> > <aylastar@>
>> > > > > wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I think some if it depends on the smarts of the dog.
>> > > > > > My 35 lb tollers eat turkey wing and necks. They stop a the
>> hardest
>> > > > > > part of the leg bone and leave it for me to collect. These bones
>> > have
>> > > > > > no marrow so are hold no interest at that point.
>> > > > > > They do the same thing with roaster pig skulls...I have to pick
>> up
>> > > the
>> > > > > > teeth in a small segment of jawbone when they are done.
>> > > > > > Turkey ecks are just crushed.
>> > > > > > re: wild boar. It's pig. If your dog is allergic to pig, they
>> will
>> > > > > > react. If they don't react, you don't have a pig allergy.
>> > > > > > FYI. There has not been trich in the domestic swine herd in
>> Canada
>> > > for
>> > > > > > decades. I learned early this year that trich has not been in
>> the
>> > > > > > farmed wild boar population in canada for a long time either.
>> This
>> > > > > > info is on the Gov of Canada websites.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Deborah, you have an unusual mix of knowledge about raw. You
>> have
>> > > some
>> > > > > > good knowledge about a few things that shows you are trying to
>> get
>> > > > > > your head around this and have been at it for a while, yet at
>> the
>> > > same
>> > > > > > time are asking questions about some pretty basic stuff.
>> > > > > > For this reason, I am not convinced that you did an elimination
>> > diet.
>> > > > > > This isn't meant to be adversarial, or insult you at all, or
>> accuse
>> > > > > > you of lying...not even a little bit.
>> > > > > > You obviously care about your animals a lot and you have tried
>> some
>> > > > > > things to figure it out as you went along. You are asking
>> excellent
>> > > > > > questions and you are on the right track.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > It just that if you had done an elimination diet. you would
>> learned
>> > a
>> > > > > > lot feeding whole bone/meat/organs already and would not need to
>> > ask
>> > > > > > some of the questions you have.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I also just looked up the prepared food you are feeding. It has
>> so
>> > > > > > much "crap" in it, it isn't funny. If your dog reacted to the
>> > recipes
>> > > > > > they have, I would not be surprised. That company is clearly
>> > another
>> > > > > > dog food company trying to appeal to people by applying human
>> > dietary
>> > > > > > requirements to dogs. No different than the marketing techniques
>> of
>> > > > > > the kibble manufacturers.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Try Illona's elimination diet. I know it will be tough to do for
>> 3
>> > > > > > weeks. No dog cookies, treats, veggies or anything other than
>> the
>> > > > > > chosen protein source. And no cooking yet. If you can get the
>> meat
>> > > > > > types without preservatives (salt, bleach,nitrates), even
>> better.
>> > > > > > Start with whole chickens...quick, easy and cheap. Throw in some
>> > > > > > chicken livers with it too. Doing this will also give you more
>> > > > > > confidence. You will find that most people on this list will
>> accept
>> > > > > > guidance from their vet, but have more knowledge about raw and
>> > > > > > vaccines, heartworm and rabies than the vets do. They will not
>> > accept
>> > > > > > being told what to do by a vet, but will insist on an informed
>> > > > > > partnership. As soon as you know more, you will be visiting you
>> vet
>> > a
>> > > > > > whole lot less!!
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > I taught my vet tech about raw when she freaked at seeing what
>> she
>> > > > > > though was a growth in the intestine in a hip x-ray. It was
>> crushed
>> > > > > > bone from a chicken wing feast the night before...
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > And if it is a convenience thing, try a local Global and Ryans
>> for
>> > > > > > many different types of prepared raw food. They carry raw diets
>> > that
>> > > > > > are pure meat/bone/organ mixes without anything else. And
>> > > eliminating
>> > > > > > the stupid carbs like apple, potato and carrot from the diet you
>> > are
>> > > > > > currently feeding will totally help the weight issues your dog
>> is
>> > > > > > having.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > You never mentioned how the allergy is manifesting. Is it
>> > itchiness?
>> > > > > > lose stools?
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Have you fed any green tripe at all? Your dog could probably use
>> > the
>> > > > > > gut flora even if it caused a reaction..
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > BTW, I was also told by a vet that one of my girls had a food
>> > allergy
>> > > > > > this spring. She had a hot red rash on the inside of her ears
>> since
>> > > > > > January and was constantly scratching all over. We did an
>> > elimination
>> > > > > > diet and were able to determine that the vet was wrong. The
>> > changing
>> > > > > > diet did nothing. Yes, you read that right. We went through 3
>> > months
>> > > > > > of isolating different proteins while watching the itching
>> happen
>> > > > > > without improvement. We were stumped!
>> > > > > > It spontaneously resolved itself in July with the dog eating all
>> > the
>> > > > > > same foods she always ate. I determined that the "allergy" was
>> an
>> > > > > > environmental issue in fact. Lack of humidity! It was the only
>> > thing
>> > > > > > that it could be. We now up the Arctic Vigor in the fall through
>> > the
>> > > > > > winter to help with this. No problems so far this year. We will
>> see
>> > > > > > when January comes!!
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > And you have seen the group consensus on feeding weight bearing
>> > > > > > support bones. We are still recommending that you don't do it,
>> > > > > > regardless of how hard you think your dog chews. If a dog is
>> given
>> > a
>> > > > > > support bone that has been sliced to expose the marrow, the dog
>> > will
>> > > > > > try to get to the marrow. You don't have to worry that your dog
>> > will
>> > > > > > be able to do break the bone..he is not that strong. But he can
>> put
>> > > > > > enough effort into it to break his own tooth...his tooth is not
>> as
>> > > > > > dense as that bone and his jaw muscle is absolutely strong
>> enough
>> > to
>> > > > > > break the tooth. And this is a very common thing. I know of 3
>> dogs
>> > > off
>> > > > > > the top of my head.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Be patient with all of these recommendations. I know it is
>> > > > > > overwhelming and time consuming, especially when you are trying
>> to
>> > > get
>> > > > > > through a learning curve about all of it. It would be so much
>> nicer
>> > > if
>> > > > > > this problem would just go away!
>> > > > > > But if you can get through the elimination diet and get the
>> > allergen
>> > > > > > is isolated, you may find more meat sources will be available to
>> > you,
>> > > > > > making the bone choices easier for you.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > There is a lot more information you need on the raw diet..like
>> > > > > > choosing and using a particular feeding model, proper
>> > bone/meat/organ
>> > > > > > proportions, creating balance across time, how to deal with
>> loose
>> > > > > > stools from too much meat, constipation from too much bone,
>> whether
>> > > to
>> > > > > > including plant material or not, feeding fish, the need for
>> green
>> > > > > > tripe, the medical implication of feeding raw..
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > You may know a lot of this already. If not, just ask away and we
>> > will
>> > > > > > hand out more free advice.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > You are doing great! it will sort out soon!
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Sherri
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > ------------------------------------
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or
>> requests!
>> > > > > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted
>> or
>> > > viewed
>> > > > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/and/or
>> > > links
>> > > > > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
>> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
>> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
>> > > > > Groups Links
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ------------------------------------
>> > >
>> > > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
>> > > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
>> > viewed
>> > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or
>> > links
>> > > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
>> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
>> > > Groups Links
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
>> > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
>> viewed
>> > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or
>> links
>> > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
>> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
>> > Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
>> Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or viewed
>> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or links
>> at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
>> Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I actually noticed yesterday when I went to a Tim Horton's near my mom's place,
that there's an ethnic food store in the plaza with the Tim's.  There was
signage indicating fresh meat, definitely said goat, maybe rabbit, and some
other things I can't remember.  Maybe I should pop in that store and see what
they've got.  My dog has definitely never had goat before.



And I just can't bring myself to feed rabbit, on moral grounds, because I have a
rabbit.  Just can't.



But there's GOT to be more out there.  I mean, really, someone must be farming
bison, elk, (and a whole bunch of other animals I can't think of right now)
etc., because you can buy that meat in ground form in the pet store.  So there
must be someone somewhere that sells it.



To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
From: flatcoatkim@...
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 17:00:33 -0500
Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with Questions





Goat would be good if you're sure there is absolutely nothing else in it. I
haven't fed goat before so I'm not really sure, but it's possible the ribs
or neck bones would be edible if you were to find actual goat meat that
hasn't been packaged.

Yes, you would feed bones in general, but not weight bearing bones of large
animals. Weight bearing bones can only be fed from animals your dog could
reasonably kill/eat in the wild such as rabbit, chicken (not that we have
wild chickens!) mouse, fish (not that fish have weight bearing bones!) you
get the idea. Add in organ meat after the dog is used to that protein
otherwise you could end up with diarrhea. Only add a bit of organ meat per
day. Heart is a muscle meat, not organ. Organ meat is mainly liver and
kidney.

Do not do the tripe idea since your dog has already been fed beef before.

Kim Peters
Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
www.dogsbehaven.com

2009/11/17 Deborah Calvert <deborahcalvert@...>

>
> Oh, my apologies. I didn't realize the "no bones" was specifically in
> reference to the turkey diet. I thought you meant in general for an
> elimination diet.
>
>
>
> Well that, what if I were to pick a different meat source? Goat for
> example. Would I feed the bones and organs in that case?
>
>
>
> And, of course you guys are right. I *thought* I had done an elmination
> diet previously but, according to this definition of the elimination diet,
> clearly I haven't done.
>
>
>
> One more question: So, if I buy, say "ground goat meat" from the pet
> store, it's actually NOT 100% ground goat? Even if that's what the package
> reads?
>
>
>
> Sorry for asking so many questions, and I really really appreciate
> everyone's help.
>
>
>
> Thank you!
>
>
>
> Deb
>
>
>
>
>
> To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
> From: flatcoatkim@...
> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:49:23 -0500
> Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with Questions
>
>
>
>
>
> I think we just discussed this on the main list last week (this thread
> should actually be there). Turkey bones are quite strong and brittle. There
> is a huge choking hazard with them.The dog may seem fine with turkey bones
> for ever and ever, until one day there is a problem, then it's too late.
> The
> diet should be alright without bone since it's only 2 weeks. The only time
> you'd need to worry is if the dog has diarrhea.
>
> Doesn't make a difference if it's cooked or raw, but don't use commercial
> products from the pet store, even if they say they are turkey, because they
> definitely have more in them than just turkey. Incidentally my dogs get the
> runs from cooked turkey, but not raw. So be careful with that.
>
> Kim Peters
> Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> www.dogsbehaven.com
>
> 2009/11/17 Deborah Calvert <deborahcalvert@...>
>
> >
> > Ok, I understand about the "only turkey" rule. But, why the "no bones"
> > rule? No turkey bones? Just the meat? No ground bones even? No organs?
> > Won't that be nutritionally deficient?
> >
> >
> >
> > Also, does it make a difference whether or not the turkey is cooked or
> raw?
> > I'm thinking in terms of treats, could I offer small pieces of cooked
> > turkey for training rewards?
> >
> >
> >
> > To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
> > From: flatcoatkim@...
> > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:56:18 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with Questions
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sounds good. Stick with ONLY turkey for at least 2 weeks, or until
> allergy
> > symptoms clear up. Do not feed the bones though. If new allergy symptoms
> > develop discontinue immediately.
> >
> > No dog biscuits, no kibble, no other meat, no bones to chew, no human
> > leftovers, no dog poop (lol), nothing but the turkey.
> >
> > Check back after it's been 2 weeks, or before that if symptoms appear.
> >
> > Kim Peters
> > Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> > www.dogsbehaven.com
> >
> > 2009/11/17 Deborah <deborahcalvert@...>
> >
> > > Sounds super easy!
> > >
> > > I'll give it a try.
> > >
> > > Well, turkey is a novel protein I think; I don't believe I ever fed it
> > > before (but I've been feeding it the last few days). I guess I should
> > start
> > > there?
> > >
> > > --- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, Flatcoatkim <flatcoatkim@
> > ...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Deb, here is the basics of a proper elimination diet, that absolutely
> > > must
> > > > be done.
> > > >
> > > > Find a novel protein (new source of meat this dog has never had).
> > Sounds
> > > > like for you a good choice might be rabbit.
> > > >
> > > > Feed this for about 2 weeks. GIVE NOTHING ELSE BUT THE RABBIT, OR
> OTHER
> > > NEW
> > > > SOURCE OF PROTEIN. The dog should not even have biscuits, rec bones,
> or
> > > any
> > > > other type of snacks. If you notice signs of allergy, discontinue
> this
> > > meat.
> > > > If the dog had allergy symptoms before starting this meat but nothing
> > new
> > > > has started, keep going with this meat until allergy symptoms clear
> up.
> > > >
> > > > It's important to start with no symptoms before moving on to another
> > meat
> > > > source. Once symptoms are gone, choose another protein and stick with
> > > that
> > > > and only that (plus the first meat if you've deemed it to be safe)
> for
> > at
> > > > least 2 weeks. If you notice symptoms discontinue that meat
> > immediately.
> > > > Some people say 1 week is fine, but often symptoms take longer than
> one
> > > week
> > > > to appear.
> > > >
> > > > The next week try one more new thing but keep the first meat if it
> > worked
> > > > alright as well as the second if it worked alright.
> > > >
> > > > Eventually you'll get a good idea of what the dog is allergic to.
> Check
> > > skin
> > > > everywhere, itchiness, yeasty ears, red feet.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sound easy enough?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kim Peters
> > > > Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> > > > www.dogsbehaven.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2009/11/17 Deborah <deborahcalvert@...>
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks Sherri,
> > > > >
> > > > > My God! My head is spinning now after reading this. I thought that,
> > > since
> > > > > I haven't done as much research as I know I need to do, that
> feeding
> > > the pre
> > > > > mixed would be better for the dogs at least for right now. The vet
> > did
> > > say
> > > > > that we could work together to construct a proper diet plan for
> > Aurora
> > > and
> > > > > is a big advocate of raw.
> > > > >
> > > > > Man, I wish there was some sort of magic list of what to feed vs
> what
> > > not
> > > > > to feed, ie feed these bones not those ones, don't feed this meat
> > > because of
> > > > > this, feed this meat because of this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Where did you all learn all of what you know?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sherri, you mentioned that the brand I'm feeding is full of junk.
> Is
> > > there
> > > > > another brand (or a few) that you could recommend?
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, as for the green tripe: where does one get that? I'm assuming
> > > > > you're not talking about the canned variety that you can buy in pet
> > > shops,
> > > > > but rather some raw variety? Do you buy that frozen like the
> prepared
> > > > > foods?
> > > > >
> > > > > Aside from asking a bunch of annoying questions of this group, how
> > else
> > > > > might I become more informed about the raw diet? Are there specific
> > > books
> > > > > you'd recommend? Websites with good info for newbies?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again for all your help so far,
> > > > >
> > > > > Deb
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, Sherri Canjar
> > <aylastar@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think some if it depends on the smarts of the dog.
> > > > > > My 35 lb tollers eat turkey wing and necks. They stop a the
> hardest
> > > > > > part of the leg bone and leave it for me to collect. These bones
> > have
> > > > > > no marrow so are hold no interest at that point.
> > > > > > They do the same thing with roaster pig skulls...I have to pick
> up
> > > the
> > > > > > teeth in a small segment of jawbone when they are done.
> > > > > > Turkey ecks are just crushed.
> > > > > > re: wild boar. It's pig. If your dog is allergic to pig, they
> will
> > > > > > react. If they don't react, you don't have a pig allergy.
> > > > > > FYI. There has not been trich in the domestic swine herd in
> Canada
> > > for
> > > > > > decades. I learned early this year that trich has not been in the
> > > > > > farmed wild boar population in canada for a long time either.
> This
> > > > > > info is on the Gov of Canada websites.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Deborah, you have an unusual mix of knowledge about raw. You have
> > > some
> > > > > > good knowledge about a few things that shows you are trying to
> get
> > > > > > your head around this and have been at it for a while, yet at the
> > > same
> > > > > > time are asking questions about some pretty basic stuff.
> > > > > > For this reason, I am not convinced that you did an elimination
> > diet.
> > > > > > This isn't meant to be adversarial, or insult you at all, or
> accuse
> > > > > > you of lying...not even a little bit.
> > > > > > You obviously care about your animals a lot and you have tried
> some
> > > > > > things to figure it out as you went along. You are asking
> excellent
> > > > > > questions and you are on the right track.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It just that if you had done an elimination diet. you would
> learned
> > a
> > > > > > lot feeding whole bone/meat/organs already and would not need to
> > ask
> > > > > > some of the questions you have.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also just looked up the prepared food you are feeding. It has
> so
> > > > > > much "crap" in it, it isn't funny. If your dog reacted to the
> > recipes
> > > > > > they have, I would not be surprised. That company is clearly
> > another
> > > > > > dog food company trying to appeal to people by applying human
> > dietary
> > > > > > requirements to dogs. No different than the marketing techniques
> of
> > > > > > the kibble manufacturers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Try Illona's elimination diet. I know it will be tough to do for
> 3
> > > > > > weeks. No dog cookies, treats, veggies or anything other than the
> > > > > > chosen protein source. And no cooking yet. If you can get the
> meat
> > > > > > types without preservatives (salt, bleach,nitrates), even better.
> > > > > > Start with whole chickens...quick, easy and cheap. Throw in some
> > > > > > chicken livers with it too. Doing this will also give you more
> > > > > > confidence. You will find that most people on this list will
> accept
> > > > > > guidance from their vet, but have more knowledge about raw and
> > > > > > vaccines, heartworm and rabies than the vets do. They will not
> > accept
> > > > > > being told what to do by a vet, but will insist on an informed
> > > > > > partnership. As soon as you know more, you will be visiting you
> vet
> > a
> > > > > > whole lot less!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I taught my vet tech about raw when she freaked at seeing what
> she
> > > > > > though was a growth in the intestine in a hip x-ray. It was
> crushed
> > > > > > bone from a chicken wing feast the night before...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And if it is a convenience thing, try a local Global and Ryans
> for
> > > > > > many different types of prepared raw food. They carry raw diets
> > that
> > > > > > are pure meat/bone/organ mixes without anything else. And
> > > eliminating
> > > > > > the stupid carbs like apple, potato and carrot from the diet you
> > are
> > > > > > currently feeding will totally help the weight issues your dog is
> > > > > > having.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You never mentioned how the allergy is manifesting. Is it
> > itchiness?
> > > > > > lose stools?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have you fed any green tripe at all? Your dog could probably use
> > the
> > > > > > gut flora even if it caused a reaction..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, I was also told by a vet that one of my girls had a food
> > allergy
> > > > > > this spring. She had a hot red rash on the inside of her ears
> since
> > > > > > January and was constantly scratching all over. We did an
> > elimination
> > > > > > diet and were able to determine that the vet was wrong. The
> > changing
> > > > > > diet did nothing. Yes, you read that right. We went through 3
> > months
> > > > > > of isolating different proteins while watching the itching happen
> > > > > > without improvement. We were stumped!
> > > > > > It spontaneously resolved itself in July with the dog eating all
> > the
> > > > > > same foods she always ate. I determined that the "allergy" was an
> > > > > > environmental issue in fact. Lack of humidity! It was the only
> > thing
> > > > > > that it could be. We now up the Arctic Vigor in the fall through
> > the
> > > > > > winter to help with this. No problems so far this year. We will
> see
> > > > > > when January comes!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And you have seen the group consensus on feeding weight bearing
> > > > > > support bones. We are still recommending that you don't do it,
> > > > > > regardless of how hard you think your dog chews. If a dog is
> given
> > a
> > > > > > support bone that has been sliced to expose the marrow, the dog
> > will
> > > > > > try to get to the marrow. You don't have to worry that your dog
> > will
> > > > > > be able to do break the bone..he is not that strong. But he can
> put
> > > > > > enough effort into it to break his own tooth...his tooth is not
> as
> > > > > > dense as that bone and his jaw muscle is absolutely strong enough
> > to
> > > > > > break the tooth. And this is a very common thing. I know of 3
> dogs
> > > off
> > > > > > the top of my head.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Be patient with all of these recommendations. I know it is
> > > > > > overwhelming and time consuming, especially when you are trying
> to
> > > get
> > > > > > through a learning curve about all of it. It would be so much
> nicer
> > > if
> > > > > > this problem would just go away!
> > > > > > But if you can get through the elimination diet and get the
> > allergen
> > > > > > is isolated, you may find more meat sources will be available to
> > you,
> > > > > > making the bone choices easier for you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is a lot more information you need on the raw diet..like
> > > > > > choosing and using a particular feeding model, proper
> > bone/meat/organ
> > > > > > proportions, creating balance across time, how to deal with loose
> > > > > > stools from too much meat, constipation from too much bone,
> whether
> > > to
> > > > > > including plant material or not, feeding fish, the need for green
> > > > > > tripe, the medical implication of feeding raw..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You may know a lot of this already. If not, just ask away and we
> > will
> > > > > > hand out more free advice.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are doing great! it will sort out soon!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sherri
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> > > > > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
> > > viewed
> > > > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/and/or
> > > links
> > > > > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > > > > Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> > > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
> > viewed
> > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or
> > links
> > > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > > Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
> viewed
> > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or
> links
> > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or viewed
> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or links
> at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Goat would be good if you're sure there is absolutely nothing else in it. I
haven't fed goat before so I'm not really sure, but it's possible the ribs
or neck bones would be edible if you were to find actual goat meat that
hasn't been packaged.

Yes, you would feed bones in general, but not weight bearing bones of large
animals. Weight bearing bones can only be fed from animals your dog could
reasonably kill/eat in the wild such as rabbit, chicken (not that we have
wild chickens!) mouse, fish (not that fish have weight bearing bones!) you
get the idea. Add in organ meat after the dog is used to that protein
otherwise you could end up with diarrhea. Only add a bit of organ meat per
day. Heart is a muscle meat, not organ. Organ meat is mainly liver and
kidney.

Do not do the tripe idea since your dog has already been fed beef before.

Kim  Peters
Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
www.dogsbehaven.com




2009/11/17 Deborah Calvert <deborahcalvert@...>

>
> Oh, my apologies.  I didn't realize the "no bones" was specifically in
> reference to the turkey diet.  I thought you meant in general for an
> elimination diet.
>
>
>
> Well that, what if I were to pick a different meat source?  Goat for
> example.  Would I feed the bones and organs in that case?
>
>
>
> And, of course you guys are right.  I *thought* I had done an elmination
> diet previously but, according to this definition of the elimination diet,
> clearly I haven't done.
>
>
>
> One more question:  So, if I buy, say "ground goat meat" from the pet
> store, it's actually NOT 100% ground goat?  Even if that's what the package
> reads?
>
>
>
> Sorry for asking so many questions, and I really really appreciate
> everyone's help.
>
>
>
> Thank you!
>
>
>
> Deb
>
>
>
>
>
> To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
> From: flatcoatkim@...
> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:49:23 -0500
> Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with Questions
>
>
>
>
>
> I think we just discussed this on the main list last week (this thread
> should actually be there). Turkey bones are quite strong and brittle. There
> is a huge choking hazard with them.The dog may seem fine with turkey bones
> for ever and ever, until one day there is a problem, then it's too late.
> The
> diet should be alright without bone since it's only 2 weeks. The only time
> you'd need to worry is if the dog has diarrhea.
>
> Doesn't make a difference if it's cooked or raw, but don't use commercial
> products from the pet store, even if they say they are turkey, because they
> definitely have more in them than just turkey. Incidentally my dogs get the
> runs from cooked turkey, but not raw. So be careful with that.
>
> Kim Peters
> Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> www.dogsbehaven.com
>
> 2009/11/17 Deborah Calvert <deborahcalvert@...>
>
> >
> > Ok, I understand about the "only turkey" rule. But, why the "no bones"
> > rule? No turkey bones? Just the meat? No ground bones even? No organs?
> > Won't that be nutritionally deficient?
> >
> >
> >
> > Also, does it make a difference whether or not the turkey is cooked or
> raw?
> > I'm thinking in terms of treats, could I offer small pieces of cooked
> > turkey for training rewards?
> >
> >
> >
> > To: CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com
> > From: flatcoatkim@...
> > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:56:18 -0500
> > Subject: Re: [CanadianRawPetSupply] Re: New to the Group, with Questions
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sounds good. Stick with ONLY turkey for at least 2 weeks, or until
> allergy
> > symptoms clear up. Do not feed the bones though. If new allergy symptoms
> > develop discontinue immediately.
> >
> > No dog biscuits, no kibble, no other meat, no bones to chew, no human
> > leftovers, no dog poop (lol), nothing but the turkey.
> >
> > Check back after it's been 2 weeks, or before that if symptoms appear.
> >
> > Kim Peters
> > Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> > www.dogsbehaven.com
> >
> > 2009/11/17 Deborah <deborahcalvert@...>
> >
> > > Sounds super easy!
> > >
> > > I'll give it a try.
> > >
> > > Well, turkey is a novel protein I think; I don't believe I ever fed it
> > > before (but I've been feeding it the last few days). I guess I should
> > start
> > > there?
> > >
> > > --- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, Flatcoatkim <flatcoatkim@
> > ...>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Deb, here is the basics of a proper elimination diet, that absolutely
> > > must
> > > > be done.
> > > >
> > > > Find a novel protein (new source of meat this dog has never had).
> > Sounds
> > > > like for you a good choice might be rabbit.
> > > >
> > > > Feed this for about 2 weeks. GIVE NOTHING ELSE BUT THE RABBIT, OR
> OTHER
> > > NEW
> > > > SOURCE OF PROTEIN. The dog should not even have biscuits, rec bones,
> or
> > > any
> > > > other type of snacks. If you notice signs of allergy, discontinue
> this
> > > meat.
> > > > If the dog had allergy symptoms before starting this meat but nothing
> > new
> > > > has started, keep going with this meat until allergy symptoms clear
> up.
> > > >
> > > > It's important to start with no symptoms before moving on to another
> > meat
> > > > source. Once symptoms are gone, choose another protein and stick with
> > > that
> > > > and only that (plus the first meat if you've deemed it to be safe)
> for
> > at
> > > > least 2 weeks. If you notice symptoms discontinue that meat
> > immediately.
> > > > Some people say 1 week is fine, but often symptoms take longer than
> one
> > > week
> > > > to appear.
> > > >
> > > > The next week try one more new thing but keep the first meat if it
> > worked
> > > > alright as well as the second if it worked alright.
> > > >
> > > > Eventually you'll get a good idea of what the dog is allergic to.
> Check
> > > skin
> > > > everywhere, itchiness, yeasty ears, red feet.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sound easy enough?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kim Peters
> > > > Dogs BeHaven Training Solutions
> > > > www.dogsbehaven.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2009/11/17 Deborah <deborahcalvert@...>
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks Sherri,
> > > > >
> > > > > My God! My head is spinning now after reading this. I thought that,
> > > since
> > > > > I haven't done as much research as I know I need to do, that
> feeding
> > > the pre
> > > > > mixed would be better for the dogs at least for right now. The vet
> > did
> > > say
> > > > > that we could work together to construct a proper diet plan for
> > Aurora
> > > and
> > > > > is a big advocate of raw.
> > > > >
> > > > > Man, I wish there was some sort of magic list of what to feed vs
> what
> > > not
> > > > > to feed, ie feed these bones not those ones, don't feed this meat
> > > because of
> > > > > this, feed this meat because of this.
> > > > >
> > > > > Where did you all learn all of what you know?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sherri, you mentioned that the brand I'm feeding is full of junk.
> Is
> > > there
> > > > > another brand (or a few) that you could recommend?
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, as for the green tripe: where does one get that? I'm assuming
> > > > > you're not talking about the canned variety that you can buy in pet
> > > shops,
> > > > > but rather some raw variety? Do you buy that frozen like the
> prepared
> > > > > foods?
> > > > >
> > > > > Aside from asking a bunch of annoying questions of this group, how
> > else
> > > > > might I become more informed about the raw diet? Are there specific
> > > books
> > > > > you'd recommend? Websites with good info for newbies?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again for all your help so far,
> > > > >
> > > > > Deb
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In CanadianRawPetSupply@yahoogroups.com, Sherri Canjar
> > <aylastar@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think some if it depends on the smarts of the dog.
> > > > > > My 35 lb tollers eat turkey wing and necks. They stop a the
> hardest
> > > > > > part of the leg bone and leave it for me to collect. These bones
> > have
> > > > > > no marrow so are hold no interest at that point.
> > > > > > They do the same thing with roaster pig skulls...I have to pick
> up
> > > the
> > > > > > teeth in a small segment of jawbone when they are done.
> > > > > > Turkey ecks are just crushed.
> > > > > > re: wild boar. It's pig. If your dog is allergic to pig, they
> will
> > > > > > react. If they don't react, you don't have a pig allergy.
> > > > > > FYI. There has not been trich in the domestic swine herd in
> Canada
> > > for
> > > > > > decades. I learned early this year that trich has not been in the
> > > > > > farmed wild boar population in canada for a long time either.
> This
> > > > > > info is on the Gov of Canada websites.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Deborah, you have an unusual mix of knowledge about raw. You have
> > > some
> > > > > > good knowledge about a few things that shows you are trying to
> get
> > > > > > your head around this and have been at it for a while, yet at the
> > > same
> > > > > > time are asking questions about some pretty basic stuff.
> > > > > > For this reason, I am not convinced that you did an elimination
> > diet.
> > > > > > This isn't meant to be adversarial, or insult you at all, or
> accuse
> > > > > > you of lying...not even a little bit.
> > > > > > You obviously care about your animals a lot and you have tried
> some
> > > > > > things to figure it out as you went along. You are asking
> excellent
> > > > > > questions and you are on the right track.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It just that if you had done an elimination diet. you would
> learned
> > a
> > > > > > lot feeding whole bone/meat/organs already and would not need to
> > ask
> > > > > > some of the questions you have.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also just looked up the prepared food you are feeding. It has
> so
> > > > > > much "crap" in it, it isn't funny. If your dog reacted to the
> > recipes
> > > > > > they have, I would not be surprised. That company is clearly
> > another
> > > > > > dog food company trying to appeal to people by applying human
> > dietary
> > > > > > requirements to dogs. No different than the marketing techniques
> of
> > > > > > the kibble manufacturers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Try Illona's elimination diet. I know it will be tough to do for
> 3
> > > > > > weeks. No dog cookies, treats, veggies or anything other than the
> > > > > > chosen protein source. And no cooking yet. If you can get the
> meat
> > > > > > types without preservatives (salt, bleach,nitrates), even better.
> > > > > > Start with whole chickens...quick, easy and cheap. Throw in some
> > > > > > chicken livers with it too. Doing this will also give you more
> > > > > > confidence. You will find that most people on this list will
> accept
> > > > > > guidance from their vet, but have more knowledge about raw and
> > > > > > vaccines, heartworm and rabies than the vets do. They will not
> > accept
> > > > > > being told what to do by a vet, but will insist on an informed
> > > > > > partnership. As soon as you know more, you will be visiting you
> vet
> > a
> > > > > > whole lot less!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I taught my vet tech about raw when she freaked at seeing what
> she
> > > > > > though was a growth in the intestine in a hip x-ray. It was
> crushed
> > > > > > bone from a chicken wing feast the night before...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And if it is a convenience thing, try a local Global and Ryans
> for
> > > > > > many different types of prepared raw food. They carry raw diets
> > that
> > > > > > are pure meat/bone/organ mixes without anything else. And
> > > eliminating
> > > > > > the stupid carbs like apple, potato and carrot from the diet you
> > are
> > > > > > currently feeding will totally help the weight issues your dog is
> > > > > > having.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You never mentioned how the allergy is manifesting. Is it
> > itchiness?
> > > > > > lose stools?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Have you fed any green tripe at all? Your dog could probably use
> > the
> > > > > > gut flora even if it caused a reaction..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > BTW, I was also told by a vet that one of my girls had a food
> > allergy
> > > > > > this spring. She had a hot red rash on the inside of her ears
> since
> > > > > > January and was constantly scratching all over. We did an
> > elimination
> > > > > > diet and were able to determine that the vet was wrong. The
> > changing
> > > > > > diet did nothing. Yes, you read that right. We went through 3
> > months
> > > > > > of isolating different proteins while watching the itching happen
> > > > > > without improvement. We were stumped!
> > > > > > It spontaneously resolved itself in July with the dog eating all
> > the
> > > > > > same foods she always ate. I determined that the "allergy" was an
> > > > > > environmental issue in fact. Lack of humidity! It was the only
> > thing
> > > > > > that it could be. We now up the Arctic Vigor in the fall through
> > the
> > > > > > winter to help with this. No problems so far this year. We will
> see
> > > > > > when January comes!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And you have seen the group consensus on feeding weight bearing
> > > > > > support bones. We are still recommending that you don't do it,
> > > > > > regardless of how hard you think your dog chews. If a dog is
> given
> > a
> > > > > > support bone that has been sliced to expose the marrow, the dog
> > will
> > > > > > try to get to the marrow. You don't have to worry that your dog
> > will
> > > > > > be able to do break the bone..he is not that strong. But he can
> put
> > > > > > enough effort into it to break his own tooth...his tooth is not
> as
> > > > > > dense as that bone and his jaw muscle is absolutely strong enough
> > to
> > > > > > break the tooth. And this is a very common thing. I know of 3
> dogs
> > > off
> > > > > > the top of my head.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Be patient with all of these recommendations. I know it is
> > > > > > overwhelming and time consuming, especially when you are trying
> to
> > > get
> > > > > > through a learning curve about all of it. It would be so much
> nicer
> > > if
> > > > > > this problem would just go away!
> > > > > > But if you can get through the elimination diet and get the
> > allergen
> > > > > > is isolated, you may find more meat sources will be available to
> > you,
> > > > > > making the bone choices easier for you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is a lot more information you need on the raw diet..like
> > > > > > choosing and using a particular feeding model, proper
> > bone/meat/organ
> > > > > > proportions, creating balance across time, how to deal with loose
> > > > > > stools from too much meat, constipation from too much bone,
> whether
> > > to
> > > > > > including plant material or not, feeding fish, the need for green
> > > > > > tripe, the medical implication of feeding raw..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You may know a lot of this already. If not, just ask away and we
> > will
> > > > > > hand out more free advice.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are doing great! it will sort out soon!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sherri
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> > > > > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
> > > viewed
> > > > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/and/or
> > > links
> > > > > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > > > > Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> > > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
> > viewed
> > > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or
> > links
> > > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > > Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> > Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or
> viewed
> > at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or
> links
> > at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Looking to buy? Looking to Sell? Post your information or requests!
> Canadian Provincial lisitings of Raw food Supplies can be posted or viewed
> at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/files/ and/or links
> at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links!Yahoo<http://groups.yah\
oo.com/group/CanadianRawPetSupply/links%21Yahoo>!
> Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]