> I like your blog and your critics.
>
> When I was a child, I was told, that the Icelandic's gait is natural !
> Looking at lots of photos it does not seem to be true any more.


it is the same with all gaited breeds, the show world is breeding the
natural gait out of them to produce high stepping hyped up nuts.
janice

--
For a good time check out Janice's Amazing Blog:
http://icelandichorseunderworld.blogspot.com/

--- In ClickRyder@yahoogroups.com, "oneacd" <apfel@...> wrote:
>
> I am hoping I can get some input for an article I am writing on learning
theory for a horse magazine. I won't quote anyone directly without permission.
>
> What would you say are your main reasons for using positive reinforcement when
working with your horses?

Reinforcement meaning increasing the desired behavior and Positive meaning
adding something the horse wants.  As there is limited time to train my horses I
want to maximize my training time so I incorporate Positive Reinforcement in
effort to get the most efficient use of my time.  A timely given food treat or a
scratch is the best way to build a lasting behavior.

Neil O

PS good luck with your article.

Copyright 2009 by Neil Ousterhout
Permission to use in part or whole to Karin In Ontario and for the ClickRyder
discussion list.

I am hoping I can get some input for an article I am writing on learning theory
for a horse magazine. I won't quote anyone directly without permission.

What would you say are your main reasons for using positive reinforcement when
working with your horses?

Thanks!
Karin in Ontario
(The article will appear in the 2010 Canadian Horse Annual)

Hi Janice !

I like your blog and your critics.

When I was a child, I was told, that the Icelandic's gait is natural !
Looking at lots of photos it does not seem to be true any more .

Dorisbellum gerant alii , tu felix Austria nube !








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

its sad, so many horrible horse people around actually making money
off people.  but thats the first signal to me of a bad horse person, a
lack of concern with what is obviously causing an animal pain. and if
they will cause pain with some seemingly minor thing, they dont care
about other ways either. i turn them in when i see them at horse fairs
too.  i turn them in to whoever holds the event and tell them they
should never have that person back and tell them why, and tell them i
will contact authorities.  i turned in a guy who was at the alabama
state horse fair.  he did an exhibition on how to break a completely
wild horse in an hour.  he dragged out a starved emaciated filthy
horse and put a thing on it he probably still sells on the internet,
the noavell headstall, and it is a hackamore where a pure steel
section of rebar clunks against the nose when he would jerk reins.
and the horse was staggering he was so weak and trying to rear to get
away from the pressure.  the whole crowd was sorta numb silent. people
behind me were muttering in disbelief.  it was one of the most
horrible things i have seen.  so i spoke up.  i always speak up about
these things and i think everyone should!

and this sidepull she has looks like it was adjusted ok on some of the
horses pictured, but the rope is very thin so is gonna have some bite.
  and in the horse that appears to be an icelandic it is being used as
a very harsh, severe, painful piece of tack.
janice
--
For a good time check out Janice's Amazing Blog:
http://icelandichorseunderworld.blogspot.com/

Oh Brenda !

I'm sorry to hear .
But from my professional experience I learned, that getting older changes
sometimes the  metabolism, you loose appetite and get very slim.
The organes , the digestif system too are affected by age.
This is one of the reasons why the have colics. It's not only the teeth.

Our poney had the same symptoms like yours and we had to put him down as finally
he had no teeth anymore , and he lost the lust of living

Don't blame you, living includes dying and it was her hour.

Feel hugged by me, but believe, it's God's decision when we have to go and
neither the best vet nor the best care would have  changed


Doris bellum gerant alii , tu felix Austria nube !






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brenda, I was deeply saddened to learn of Inky's death. You told her
story so well and thoroughly that I believe we all felt we knew her,
in all her little quirks and sweetnesses and stubbornness. Thank you
for sharing her life with us.
Fondly,
barbara & brittany

Hi Gina and all,


First to all... Thanks to everyone for all for their help over the years!
Clicker training allowed me to have a better relationship with Inky. I am in
Tacoma Washington in case anyone is near me.

To Gina below...

Monday, November 9, 2009, 7:44:20 AM, you wrote:

> Have you read the Rainbow Bridge poem?  Nothing can 'help' the
> situation, but there are  some evocative equine-wordings that lift the mind a
> little..

I have read it but not in a long time. I didn't remember it having any equine
wordings.

Someone sent us an equine sympathy card. I didn't know any existed.

> I hope you continue with this group to share what you have learned,

I have not been very active lately because it is hard for me to sit for very
long.

There are a lot of posts about Inky from when I first started clicker training.
People might be interested in those because it is like Day 1, Day 2 etc.

--
Brenda

Hi doris,

Monday, November 9, 2009, 9:51:10 AM, you wrote:

> She did not colic, as we fed grained oat, but she had troubles with the hay
and grass she get.

We fed Inky beet pulp and senior feed that was watered down. She had access to
the pasture. (Maybe if she did not, she would have been ok. She would have hated
being separated from the neighbor horse though.)

I would notice that she was always chewing when she came up to be fed. Sometimes
there would be a squeaking noise. Her water had to be cleaned every time it was
filled. (I think this was from grass falling out of her mouth.) Sometimes wads
of grass would fall out of her mouth.

It is very hard to get my mom to have a vet come out. She thinks I am being
overly cautious. Maybe she will be better in the future. She called right away
when she found Inky unable to get up. I have not had a job in 5 years so I don't
have money to call a vet out. I am not saying it was her fault.. I could have
done more myself.

--
Brenda

Hi Janice,

Tuesday, November 10, 2009, 7:38:41 AM, you wrote:

> And their special equipment design, how would I know it had the horse's
> welfare in mind if the only photos of it on a horse looked like
> it was painful?

That is true.

Anyway when I saw her at the expo she was giving a talk. She didn't actually
work with a horse. She said some stuff I didn't agree with but some was good.

I knew that if I did the stuff she suggested with Inky that it would be bad
news. (I gave her the specifics so it is not like I was trying to apply general
info to my specific issue.)

She said that the design of the bridle could not be patented because it has been
around for 100s of years. That could be a good thing or a bad thing.. there were
terrible bridles back when but also people from the olden days that know more
than some people today.

--
Brenda

Inky,

You were a great champion.  When you ran the ground shook.  The sky opened and
mere mortals parted the way to victory.  I will meet you in the winner's circle
where I will lay a blanket of flowers on your neck.

My sincerest condolences to you Brenda.
I know you will miss Inky.
Take care,
Regards, Raelene.

Yes, but... If someone is so clueless as to have a noseband so tight it is a
muffin top then I just have to assume their horsemanship is not worth spending
money on! And their special equipment design, how would I know it had the
horse's welfare in mind if the only photos of it on a horse looked like it was
painful? Sidepulls are not innocuous halter bridles, look at the aqha
"quickstops" and sidepulls with steel  cable across the nose... I won't
recommend or purchase from people who show horses in pain or severe tack. It
displays a lack of concern with horse welfare. This is just how I feel. And I
have seen enough horse abuse thru well intentioned tack to last a lifetime and
this muffin top noseband is an icelandic horse standard that is abusive. And I
don't think I will ever see it without speaking out, I have to. Its a decision I
have made.
Janice
Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

Hi Janice,

Monday, November 9, 2009, 3:39:58 PM, you wrote:

> i see she has a video "benny the autistic horse" . I bet he would be a
> lot less autistic without a nose band cutting off his air supply haha

I saw her at an expo I went to. She is not a clicker trainer. That doesn't
affect whether or not the bridle is good.

I didn't see a picture of the bridle being poorly adjusted. I just got an email
about the special offer. If someone buys it, I would assume they can adjust it
however they want. (If you can't adjust it, then it is not worth purchasing.)

--
Brenda

> I have not used this bitless bridle, but there is a lot of talk on the list
about them so I thought I would post this sale.

i liked it but good lord, she had it too tight on the horse's nose. he
had a muffin top!
janice


For a good time check out Janice's Amazing Blog:
http://icelandichorseunderworld.blogspot.com/

>> I have not used this bitless bridle, but there is a lot of talk on the list
about them so I thought I would post this sale.



i see she has a video "benny the autistic horse" . I bet he would be a
lot less autistic without a nose band cutting off his air supply haha
Janice

--
For a good time check out Janice's Amazing Blog:
http://icelandichorseunderworld.blogspot.com/

Oh Brenda!  I'm so sorry about Inky.  I enjoyed each and every one of your posts
about her, your trials and tribulations.  She gave you so many wonderful
memories to carry with you.  I hope those can be pulled out of your heart to
help you heal.  My condolences....


                                                                                        
Meg and the zoo...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm sorry for Inky, and I imagine your sadness

Years ago we took a 33y old poney  at our home, because de club did not want to
feed it anymore .

She did not colic, as we fed grained oat, but she had troubles with the hay and
grass she get.
After some month we had to put her down, as she lost her balance and could  not
get up anymore

Doris bellum gerant alii , tu felix Austria nube !










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, Brenda, I am so sorry to hear this news.............

Please accept my sincere condolences on your loss.  Dear, beautiful,
occasionally confusing, Inky!  I am so glad you had the guts to do the
right-thing for her.  Have you read the Rainbow Bridge poem?  Nothing can 'help'
the situation, but there are  some evocative equine-wordings that lift the mind
a little..

One door closes, another opens,
My very Best Wishes to you,
I hope you continue with this group to share what you have learned,
Gina

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have not used this bitless bridle, but there is a lot of talk on the list
about them so I thought I would post this sale. I am not sure how long it
goes on for. Of course I do not make any $ off this product.

***YEAR END CLEARANCE***

Samson Golden Braid Rope Halter
w-Hand Tied Side Pull Loops for Bitless Riding
ALL-IN-ONE Gold Plus
$69.95
Only $29.71
With 15% OFF Coupon Code WIN2009
INCLUDES Matching Sport Reins
Exclusively available online at www.MissyWryn.com
(Horse & Arab sizes available – Icelandic & Draft available for addt’l cost)
--
Brenda

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:00 PM, Brenda <brenda@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Inky had to be put down yesterday. I have written many posts about her to the
list previously.

Brenda,

So sorry for your loss. You have my admiration and respect, for making
the difficult decision for Inky's well-being.   She was a fortunate
one.
Cindy

I'm so sorry Brenda,

I hope all your good memories of Inky will help heal your sadness and when
you think of her she will make you smile.

Hugs,

Pam, Storm & Cheyenne


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss and yes she is in heaven as My Summer and
Speedo  are. My prayers are with you. Lbaumes Glen NY
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Brenda
   To: ClickRyder@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 12:00 AM
   Subject: [ClickRyder] inky put down and life saving info



   Inky had to be put down yesterday. I have written many posts about her to the
list previously.

   Inky was out on pasture but could not chew it very well because of her teeth.
She was almost 31 years old, so her teeth were in poor condition. The vet found
long stems in her fecal matter when she did her exam. She felt that there was an
impaction. She did not want to do surgery due to Inky's age and etc.

   I had noticed previously that her manure looked funny. I thought maybe it was
because of the rain, or because it was old. (I don't have to clean it up every
day because she is on pasture. She never went in her stall.)

   Maybe if I had brought her manure in to be examined by the vet, or had a
grazing muzzle on her, this would not have happened. Maybe her death can save a
life.

   I didn't ask the vet what the warning signs were, but these are what I assume
they were... If you notice a change in your horse's manure, have the vet look at
it. If your horse is older, maybe it should not be allowed to graze anymore. I
noticed that Inky would have food falling out of her mouth. I did not realize
that it could cause her to colic if the food was not getting thoroughly chewed.
(There would also be a choking risk I would assume.)

   I believe that Inky is in heaven. I read a great book about this called "There
Is Eternal Life For Animals".

   --
   Brenda





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Brenda,

My heart goes out to you during this difficult time.  At some point if we
keep horses 'for life' we'll all have to deal with this.  She lived a very
long life!! You did a lot of things right over the years to get her there
and in the end made the right decision for her at the right time for the
right reasons.  Take care.
<hugs>
Sharon

------------------------------------------------------------
Getting to Yes: Clicker Training for Improved Horsemanship
http://www.horsemansarts.com
sharon@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Brenda,



Sorry to hear about Inky.  31 is a long life, but it's always sad when they
go. I am sure she is happily playing in green pastures.



Katie





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Inky had to be put down yesterday. I have written many posts about her to the
list previously.

Inky was out on pasture but could not chew it very well because of her teeth.
She was almost 31 years old, so her teeth were in poor condition. The vet found
long stems in her fecal matter when she did her exam. She felt that there was an
impaction. She did not want to do surgery due to Inky's age and etc.

I had noticed previously that her manure looked funny. I thought maybe it was
because of the rain, or because it was old. (I don't have to clean it up every
day because she is on pasture. She never went in her stall.)

Maybe if I had brought her manure in to be examined by the vet, or had a grazing
muzzle on her, this would not have happened. Maybe her death can save a life.

I didn't ask the vet what the warning signs were, but these are what I assume
they were... If you notice a change in your horse's manure, have the vet look at
it. If your horse is older, maybe it should not be allowed to graze anymore. I
noticed that Inky would have food falling out of her mouth. I did not realize
that it could cause her to colic if the food was not getting thoroughly chewed.
(There would also be a choking risk I would assume.)

I believe that Inky is in heaven. I read a great book about this called "There
Is Eternal Life For Animals".

--
Brenda

An FA is a  fantastic brainstorming tool to help find what is  actually
going on  that is maintaining a behavior .  The  beauty of it is  anyone can be
taught to do this and be amazed how it can  make the light bulbs go off  by
seeing clearly what you might have  been missing!

Giving people tools to work with to try and understand why their animal's
behavior is happening is important and it is amazing really how easily
actually people do and can understand Functional Analysis .
The problem  with constructs is what might be seen as aggression etc. for
one person is  not the same for another . Constructs do not help when you
are trying to  understand what is actually going on and break it down to
why a
behavior is  happening.
In order to effectively work on a problem behavior solution, you  need to
be able to
look at the actual behavior in terms of what has  happened before and
after it, to cause the behavior to be  reinforced.

Working with all types of animals it really great for getting  you to
understand the concept of learning and it is wonderful to see  how fast you
can teach yourself and  people to look at the antecedent (  what happens
just before a
behavior) and look at the consequence doing this  behavior has for the
animal
that keeps the animal continuing the behavior or  stopping it . In
studying the science of behavior a consequence can be  either desirable or
something not desirable ...when a behavior you do not  want the animal
doing
continues it is because the animal is still continuing  to get a
consequence ( remember  consequences can be either  a positive or a
negative )  from it.


Order of training strategies  always giving the animal a chance  beginning
with  most positive first .
R+ (Reinforcment positive bringing something  "into "  the  environment
like a reward ), P- (Punishment negative  such as .."take  away", a time out) ,
R- ( Reinforcement negtive  such as escape , moving  away from something
.. it ncreases behavior ) and last P+( Punishment  positive ...adding an
aversive)
Note: P-  is the removal(or time out) of  the chance to earn R+. With R-and
P- , there are no aversives which is something  we  want to avoid if
possible.
(Remember;  Punishment  either  + ( plus) or -  (minus  ), always
"decreases " a   behavior
.....and ;
Reinforcement , either + (plus ) or -(minus ) always  "increases " behavior)


_________________________________________________
Ciao, Angela Rosaria Cancilla Herschel in Southern California  ......
Being kind is more important ... than being  important.

California Wildlife Center ( volunteer, wildlife  warrior)
Malibu, Ca. 91302
310-458-WILD  (9453)
_http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pelon-KBut8&feature=related_
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pelon-KBut8&feature=related)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In ClickRyder@yahoogroups.com, "Dolores Arste" <darste3@...> wrote:
>
> Agression comes from fear. Stallions particulary are full of the conflicting
> emotion of fear that someone will hurt them and take their mares and the
> responsiblity that comes from being the herd leader with no one to lead.
>
> Likely Coco is also feeling threatened becuase Jock is not acting like a
> normal horse would so she can't read him. And, Jock doesn't know either.


Hi,
I'm actually pretty pleased with the response I got from Jock when working with
him and Coco. The only reason I was working on the two of them together is I
think it would be better if Jock didn't always want to be "in my face" when I am
distracted working with Coco as it isn't that safe being stuck between any two
horses. I was really pleased that he offered head down and will keep working on
that. Coco is dominant to every horse on the property except Jock. She tried to
boss him until he mounted her and now she doesn't want to know hm really, she
will stand next to him but if he just to close she backs off. I no longer let
them be ihn the same paddock as Coco got kicked when Jock got spooked one night
(it was dark and I didn't really see what happened)and as she isn't mine I can't
take the risk.  At the moment she is in season though so she squeals when
anything (including me) approaches her.  I hate spring, fat horses, muzzles, and
in season mares!
Delwyn

--- In ClickRyder@yahoogroups.com, kande50@... wrote:
>
> I wonder if putting his head down when he's around the other horse
> makes him feel too vulnerable?  Maybe it would work better for him to
> just learn to stay back, and skip the head down part?
>
> Kris

There is no doubt Jock feels vulnerable with his head down around another horse
but I want that behaviour as it gves me an extra second to respond if he does
react quickly. I wouldn't ever let the second horse approch him when his head is
loered that wouldn't be fair on either of them
>

>with CT we can get behaviors that look very much like
aggression, that aren't necessarily.
  What's that old saying?  If it looks like a duck . . .   Aggression is
observable!  It is an action.  The reason for it may not be so easily discerned,
but aggression is (more or less) the opposite of amenable/friendly/or whatever
adjective you want to use.  It can be caused by fear, anger, defensiveness,
etc., etc.  And it isNOT anthropomorphism (what a hateful, arrogant human
word!).  It is an actual attitude.  We can see attitudes, just not the reasons
behind them.

  If it LOOKS like aggression, it IS aggression.  (Doesn't mean all forms of
aggression are treated the same way--whole 'nother story there.)    :)

Sunny








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