Hi Pascal,

Good morning, it is morning in Cleveland.  Do you know the time
difference between Lebanon and eastern USA??  It's about 16 hours
ahead of our time in Sydney, Australia.  I believe Lebanon would be
an exciting place to visit.  My grandson is preparing to become a
commercial pilot and who knows where we might travel with some free
airfare.  We made a trip to Israel in 1988 with an educational group
and found the geographical variety in such a small area amazing.  I
am sure that we would enjoy seeing your homeland if an opportunity
should arise in the future.
Unfortunately, the media most often shows the worst and most
distasteful materials.  It would be good if more positive material
was presented for viewing.   I don't watch the media except when my
husband informs me that there are special events happening.  I had
much rather spend my time studying, watching my Gouldians and reading
from the Internet. Yes, I think it was the salad food
called "kablula" and great tasting food.  Thank you for the
clarification on the proper name.

There are no experts on this site who are not still learning about
Gouldians.  But, that is one of the reasons that breeding Gouldians
has held my attention. If there were scads of books and detailed
information concerning Gouldians, then there would be not need for
intensive study, research, and Internet communication.  I don't think
any American has written a book devoted entirely to Gouldians.
Daniel Wildemeersch in Belgium has a new book, but it has not be
translated into English. I would like to be able to read Daniel's
book. There is so much to learn and if that were not the case the
wild Gouldian would not be in decline and the Gouldian in captivity
would experience longevity.  The oldest record that I have found for
a Gouldian in captivity is 16 year of age and the average is 6 to 7
years.  I do not recall any studies which tell us how long wild
Gouldians live. My oldest Gouldian is a RH WB YB male, Spencer, who
is about 7 years old.  I have read that some have Gouldians in
captivity which are 9 years old and still breeding, but this is not
the norm. I feel that in time, Gouldian breeders should be able to
provide stock which would average at least to10 years of age. .  How
old is your oldest Gouldian??

Regards,
Winnie

> One thing that I am interested in is the length of
the tail on the
> cock Gouldians.

Hi friend,

I am also interested in the longer tail trait of the
male birds, and I trying to figure out the genetical
inheritance of this, but I have no conclusive results
yet.

>I got a
> shock when I recently saw a wild cock photograph and
could not believe the length of its tail feathers.

Is it the one attached with this e-mail? I was amazed
at this guy's long tail, but after a bit of research,
I've found out that the long wires are the antennae of
a tracking device placed on the back of the bird by
researchers.

I have placed a red mark where the real tail feathers
end, they are not that short BTW. The other wires are
human made unfortunately. Does anyone have any inputs
on the subject?

Pascal




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Hi Paul,


In July 1983, we traveled from Darwin, to Ayers Rock, on to Cooper
Pedy, Broken Hill and back to Sydney.  This was before they had paved
road between Ayers Rock and Cooper Pedy and what an experience! We
stopped at Katherine and took a boat ride through the gorge and found
the tall termite mounds fascinating and especially the fact that some
are alway constructed facing the east. The road from Ayers Rock to
Cooper Pedy was like riding a wash board and the small stones threw
us off the road twice and dust, RED DUST, everywhere.  The air
conditioner when out and we were covered with dust and so was
everything in the Datsun.  We enjoyed seeing the opal mines at Cooper
Pedy ,where it had not rained in 3 years, and 75 % of the people
lived underground because the temperature gets up to 117 F.  We went
down 400 feet into a mine at Broken Hill and saw beautiful rocks and
stones in the shops.  I had such a great time in the outback that I
hated to return to the responsibilities in Sydney.

Milton invited me to come to Katherine and see the Recovery Project.
Some of my Gouldian friends say that they would like to make a trip
to Australia.  Who knows, maybe we could have a GPA 101911 tour at
Katherine to view the Gouldian in the wild.  I hope you do make it
for the Gouldian count next year and can take umpteen photos to share
with the E-groups.  I would love to be there too, but it is doubtful.
I was happy to see that Milton has published a web site. I am sure
you have been to Milton's web pages at
www.nt.gov.au/ipe/paw/fauna/birds.pdf.   But, other members of GPA
101911 may like to see the site.  It would be nice if Milton or
another representative of the Recovery Project would join the GPA
101911.

I also tract any records of wild Gouldian sitings at
www.cse.unsw.edu.au/birding-aus and I have corresponded
with Denise Goodfellow at http://www.denisegoodfellow.com  concerning
the fact that Goudlians were seen eating lerps.  I did not have a
clue as to what lerps were and could not find it in my Australian
dictionary.  She explained that lerps are "shield-like, circular
coverings that the larvae of insects called pyslids shelter under.
Lerps taste sweet and were once eaten by Aboriginal people in various
parts of Australia".  I found this interesting because I feel that
perhaps the Gouldian requires more carbohydrates, especially the
Blues and Silvers, than we may at present realize. I also feel that
the wild Gouldian sucks nectar, or at least moisture, from the
flowers and leaves which produces nutritional properties for
health.   Denise is an Australian music teacher and buffalo shooter,
biologist, nature guide,lecturer, cross-cultural consultant, author,
illustrator and friend to nature lovers around the world.  Exploring
Denise's web site is a very interesting experience and she has
several books for sale.  I would like to purchase her book entitled
Birds of Australia's Top End, which contains " a lot more information
on Gouldian Finches", according to Denise. I am wondering if any of
the Australian members at GPA 101911 has pruchased this book and can
tell us what she has written about the wild Gouldian.

I have read that in breeding and line breeding will produce birds
which excel in size and quality, but also produces small or weak
birds in the same clutch.  Have you found this true in your
experience and if you do, what do you do with the weak birds??  This
has always been one of my concerns about in breeding or line
breeding.  Having been reared on a farm, and my "Auntie", as you
would say in Australia, having taught me to place great value on life
in all forms, I would find it difficult to "cull" weak birds for the
sake of producing strong birds.  By culling, I mean to put to death
as some breeders might decide as the best method of disposing of
unwanted birds.  What is your thinking on this subject??

So, you are interested in Gouldians with long tail wires and
rightfully so.  The wild Gouldian does exhibit long tail wires and I
saw this subject discussed on E-Groups in which you participated.  I
had an interesting thing happen in my aviary last year when a female,
Bonnie by name, grew the longest tail feather,I had ever seen.  I
took a photo and will upload it on this site and give a notification
as to having placed it an album. The long tail wires seem to enhance
the over all beauty of the Gouldian and I think it is a desirable
trait.  Perhaps other GPA 101911 members have some comments on this
subject. Thanks for dropping by and our best wishes to your family.

Regards,
Winnie

Hi James,

I am glad to see you that made it to GPA 101911!!.  I never in one
moment thought that your reference to John Sammut inferred that he
produced anything but the best of Blues.  The fact that he has
successfully bred Blue to Blue should mean that we could  learn
something from his environment, nutrition, and breeding methods.  I
wish that John was communicating by computer because it seems easier
that conventional mail.  Hope you are over the flu and feeling better.

Regards,
Winnie

>>I read with interest the report from Ben Oostendorp regarding his breeding
>>of the blues. I can believe what he is saying because I know of one
breeder
>>here that claims to have been breeding blue to blue for six years (he does
>>not breed split birds at all) That breeder is John Sammut, co author of "A
>>guide to Gouldian Finches"

>Can you explain what you mean by this please ?

>Does this mean that John Sammut is getting partially blind and weak
>Blue Gouldians ?


William,

That is CERTAINLY NOT what I am saying and I am at a loss as to how you came
to that conclusion.
The report from Ben Oostendorp, that I was reading, stated that he had NEVER
had a blind Gouldian.
I stated that I believed what he was saying because...........

Perhaps I don't express myself very well but my inference was that John
Sammut has very healthy birds and hence is able to breed blue to blue
without problems. I do hope this makes it very clear to you, and to others,
and that John Sammut's reputation does not suffer as a result of my being
misquoted in public forum.
.......James

Thank you for the warm welcome Winnie.

I have also corresponded with Milton Lewis and his colleagues. I am
keen to one day help out with the Gouldian count. I would love to
take my cameras along and take a series of wild Gouldian shots. I
should finally be able to get there next year (when my wife no longer
has commitments. She is in her final year of acting school and with a
young family it has been difficult.).

As you know regardless of the types of breeding methods used the most
important thing is to document all your findings, in relation to the
quality of off spring and their off spring and so on. Continue using
the best of the best and identify the best pairs that reproduce their
desirable traits. It is certainly a sure fire way of obtaining a
robust strain.

Next year I intend on developing more yellow heads and refine the
yellow colour, fingers crossed. The normals keep me more than busy. I
honestly do not know how the mutation enthusiasts find the time or
dedication. I take my hat off to them though.

One thing that I am interested in is the length of the tail on the
cock Gouldians. My Gouldians have what I would describe as short to
medium tails. I recently bought two red headed cocks with longer
tails and hope to slowly introduce this into the colony. I got a
shock when I recently saw a wild cock photograph and could not
believe the length of its tail feathers. I do not know its purpose
other than maybe to entice an interested hen? Maybe someone can give
a more informed view about this?

Good luck with your website.

Regards Paul.








--- In Gouldian_Preservation_Association_101911@y..., "gfinches2"
<Gfinches2@a...> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> Welcome to GPA 101911!!  I have followed your posts for the past
> several years from the time you posted on Laraine McGinnis' message
> board and since you opened your own message board at
> http://pub36.bravenet.com/forum and your Yahoo site at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vicgouldiangroup/.  I am confident
that
> you will be an asset to this group.  There are many great sites,
> including your own, where Gouldian information can be obtained.  I
am
> expecting that this site will be somewhat different in that we will
> attempt to study and research those areas where we do not presently
> have answers.
>
> I think your experience in line breeding and in breeding could
> provide some interesting posts.  I feel that inbreeding and line
> breeding is the only choice for some breeding projects.  To date I
> have avoided this method, but may choose this method for certain
> Gouldian projects.  I can certainly appreciate your breeding
strictly
> Normals.  As one of my associates wrote , the Gouldian, in its
> natural coloring, has such complete beauty that further mutations
> would not be necessary to enhance its appearance. I know that
Milton
> Lewis, Director of the Gouldian Recovery Project at Katherine, NT,
> would be happy to know of your choice to breed Normals.  I
> corresponded with Milton last year concerning the Gouldian in the
> wild. He had written some concern that mutations could accidently
be
> released into the wild.
>
> Paul, you have produced some of my favorite Gouldian photography.
> Please feel free to share your photos on this site. Eventually, I
> hope we can have an album with various photos from around Australia
> showing the interesting sites and animals. When I think of
Melbourne,
> I always remember the trees overhanging some of the Melbourne
streets
> in their brilliant yellow leaves in the fall.  We also enjoyed
seeing
> the penguins at Port Phillip, which I found so very interesting.
>
> Having lived in Sydney 11 years, I can certainly appreciate the
> Australian perspective about Gouldians.  James Watson, who lives in
> Perth will join GPA 101911 shortly.  In fact, I don't know why he
is
> taking so long and decided I had better send him a personal
> invitation.  We have been communicating on another Yahoo site and I
> transferred the Blue mutation subject to GPA 101911 and I think he
> got lost in the shuffle. LOL.  I know some members of GPA 101911
will
> be readers while others will be writers. Whenever you do have the
> time, please feel welcome to share you comments.
>
> Kind regards,
> Winnie

Hi GPA 101911,

I realize that this group may be a little different in that we study
and write in depth about questions concerning Gouldians. I would like
to suggest that if you find the posts too numerous or too lengthy,
perhaps you may want to edit you mail preferences from "Individual
Emails" to "No Email." Having changed your Yahoo settings to "No
Email, you can then place this site in your Favorite List and read
when you have the opportunity.  This eliminates having loads of
Emails in your personal mail box.  I am asking that the members note
the subject at the top of each post, so that you can choose those
Emails which you may find of interest. If you need help in knowing
how to change the preferences just let us know.

Delmar Gouldians,
Winnie

Hi New Members,

  Please accept this post as a welcome to all members who did not or
will not get an individual welcome to GPA 101911.  It would be most
difficult to post an individual welcome for each individual member.
Some of you have not listed names in your Yahoo profiles, and I am
sure you have good reason.  Some members may not wish to be addressed
individually.

I also know that many members will be content to read, while others
will want to write.  We want you to feel comfortable with whatever is
your choice. I am guilty of "lurking", as it is called, on a number
of E-Groups and I owe a debt of gratitude for all the information
which I learned from capable writers.  Members at GPA 101911 will not
ousted for not posting or not writing an introduction.

WELCOME TO EVERYONE!!

Delmar Gouldians,
Winnie

Hi Daniel and William,

Thank you for both for excellent posts on the Blue mutation and
Vitamin A.  I think we are making some real progress in better
understanding the nutritional needs of the Blue mutation.
I noticed William's comment that perhaps James is not feeding enough
Vitamin A in his eggfood.  Eggs are high in Vitamin A and Robert
Black feels that eggs can be a total substitute for insects.
However, Robert, who is a firm believer in feeding hard boiled eggs,
also adds one 50 mg tablet of zinc to every whole egg.  In relation
to this comment, I feel that we need to do some further investigation
about zinc, zinc in relation to Vitamin A, zinc in relationship to
calcium, calcium in relation to D3 or sunlight and zinc in relation
to  melanin in the Blue mutation.  Any comments on this subject will
be appreciated.

The comments on "pinkie" are interesting, especially now that we know
that they are really maggots and not mice LOL  I have read that some
Australians raise termites and feed them to Gouldians. One Australian
web site even gave instructions on how to set up a colony of termites
as a food source for finches.  If anyone is interested in raising
termites, since raising maggots is Belgian professional secret, I
will look up the information.  However, it is not a project which I
plan to pursue.  Perhaps James Watson or Paul Robertson may have some
comments on feeding termites to Gouldians.

William, I am sure Lea will be happy to write about Skipio maggots at
her earliest convenience.  She has been busy with the new web site.
Lea has not bred many Blues, but she is breeding a Dilute Blue at
this present time.  The Dilute Blue, Poppy, is healthy and has not
shown any problems to date.  Lea gives her Gouldians vitmains in
their water bottles with an optional bottle of clear water.  These
vitamins are high in Vitamin A and she buys them from a Nutritional
Research company in Indiana.  We have both purchased foods and
supplements from this company for a number of years, but I have never
purchased the vitamins.  However, I am placing an order most likely
tomorrow and will include some Vitamins.  The Grovite, Nestling Food,
and the Super Caradee,which I use to supplement my Protein 25,are all
fortified with vitamins and minerals. However, it seems that we may
need to give the Blues an extra supply of Vitamin A.

Daniel, I noticed that you wrote that you feel that Cede can not be
left for even one day.  Like William, I am surprised by your view
about eggfood going bad. We used Cede a couple years back, but now we
using a similar product made in the USA called Protein 25 by
Higgins.  The shelf life of commercial eggfood is three to six months
if it is unopened. We fortify the Protein 25 with other ingredients,
including dried insects or eggs, to boost the protein and
vitamin/mineral content. I have not found it a problem to leave the
dried eggfood for many days, and please note that I wrote dried,
because some breeders make their commercial eggfood moist. Perhaps
there is a difference in room temperature, humidity or some other
variable.

I know that a number of breeders in England use Cod liver oil and
Budgerigar breeders in Canada and the USA use it as a source for
Vitamin A.  I realize that caution must be used because the oil can
go rancid quickly, but mixing it with Vitamin E helps delay spoiling.
And, caution must be used not to allow the birds to become over
weight. Daniel, do Belgian breeders ever use Cod Liver oil mixed with
seed to supply Vitamin A??

Regards,

Winnie

Hi Jo,

Perhaps we need to know a little more about your Gouldians.  I am
wondering about the following questions:
1.  How long have you had the Gouldians?
2.  How old are the they?
3.  When did they finish molting?
4.  Have they been given eggfood to condition them for breeding?
5.  What kind of nest and nesting material have you tried?
6.  What are the sexes of the Gouldians?
7.  What kind of cages do you have?
8.  Is the environment without disturbances?
9.  Do the Gouldians have sunlight?
10.Do the Gouldians like their mates?


Delmar Gouldians,
Winnie

--- In Gouldian_Preservation_Association_101911@y..., "Daniel
Wildemeersch" <wida@v...> wrote:

>>1. Have there been any scientific experiments made that prove that
Blue Gouldians cannot convert pro-Vitamin A to vitamin A ?

> Yes.

Thank you for this unexpected information. This is very interesting
indeed.

So Winnie is right afterall !!! She has suspected this all along.
Okay so now Winnie we are all certain. But still, Ben Oostendorp
never gave any vitamins in the water to his Blue Gouldians but ALWAYS
JUST FRESH WATER ON ITS OWN.

There are two forms of Vitamin A.
1. Pro-vitmain A called CAROTENE which has to be converted by the
body once it is absorbed into Vitamin A and

2. Preformed Vitamin A called RETINOL which is already made so once
the bird eats it, it can be utilized straightaway by the bird.

According to Earl Mindell, a world famous nutritionist, in his book
called "The Vitamin Bible", Vitamin A counteracts night blindness,
weak eyesight and helps in the treatment of many eye disorders.

Now both Ben Oostendorp and Daniel Wildermeersch feed insects to
their Blue Gouldians and they never have had Blue Gouldians with eye
problems. So since most insects are high in Retinol, I am just
wondering whether it is possible that Blue Gouldians need a higher
amount of Retinol than normal Gouldians. I have known loads of people
breeding normal Gouldians without giving them any insects at all and
their birds having no eye problems.

So one possible reason why James Watson's Blue Gouldians are
partially blind may be due to the softfood that he feeds his birds
not having enough Retinol in it. So if you are reading this, James,
can you tell me whether you feed any insects to your Blue Gouldians ?

Lea if you are reading this, Winnie told me that you feed Skipio
maggots to your Gouldians, can you please tell me whether you have
weak or partially blind Blue Gouldians ?

>>Here in the UK, quite a few bird breeders have had their bird
collections destroyed overnight by feeding live housefly larvae
[maggots]. The reason for the birds dying has been found to be
botulinism bacteria.
> First question: Did they cook them?

No they did not !!! so that is the neat way of killing the botulinism
bacteria !! Boil the maggots for 20 minutes, sieve and freeze.
Amazing, it never occurred to me to do this. Thanks for the tip.

>The mixture even without pinkies at room temperature will not remain
good to feed, not even for 1 day.

That is strange. I thought Cede or Orlux commercial eggfood will keep
well at room temperature, don't they ?

Regards,

William

Hi Daniel,

It is good news to learn that Belgium has not experienced any
problems with the Blue mutation.  We are advised in the USA to breed
Blue X Split Blue which I have always done.  However, I have been of
the opinion that one day Blue will be mated to Blue with the same
results as Blue to Split Blue.  As you probably noted, James has
written that John Summat, in Sydney, Australia, has been breeding
Blue to Blue for many generations.  James can give clarification on
John's breeding of Blues.

While I was in Sydney in January 2001, I talked extensively with the
president of the Finch Society of Australia, Niki Ferranti.  At that
time she suggested that I should write John Summat, who is a member
of the same society, but does not communicate by computer.  I have
not written him to date, but we could possible get some input from
John on the Blue Mutations.

I found it very interesting that you stated that "As recessive white
canaries they can't make vitamins A out of the pro-vitamine A, which
can be found in greens". Further, that Belgium breeders give a
Vitamin A soluble in water (1 drop for 50 ml water). At this point, I
feel that some weakness in the Blue mutation is no doubt caused by
inappropriate inbreeding or line breeding.  However, I do not feel
that this is the total cause for what I have observed in my aviary.
I feel that either the lack of A or the inability of the liver to
discharge the Vitamin A which a result of insufficient Zinc is a
probable cause.  Vitamin A helps to keep moisture in the tissues and
is therefore important in preventing eggbinding as well as the
respiratory disturbances and tendency for disease as you mentioned in
your E-mail Both zinc and Vitamin A are vital for a health immune
system.

  I would like to try a soluble Vitamin A, but at this point I do not
know where to purchase this item.  All of the foods which I feed are
supplemented with vitamins and minerals and the birds are healthy and
are large in size..  However, I am not satisfied with the health and
longevity of the Blues verses Normals and have noticed distinct
differences in their development and nutritional requirements, which
I have written in Message 23 on this site. I have had one Blue male
who produced 26 offspring, but died at 4 years old.  I have another
male, which was purchased at the same time who is still 5 years old,
and has produced about 15 offspring.  However, the other 6 purchased
Blues do not have good records and were short lived. When I learned
of the eye problems in the Blues of Australia, I felt some
international research concerning environment, nutrition and breeding
methods could help find some answers.

I am thinking that perhaps we should write Robert Black who has
published a book entitled "Nutrition of Finches and Other Cage Birds,
for some input on nutrition.   I have this book in my Gouldian
library and it has been the primary source for my nutritional studies
for the Gouldians.

Regards,
Winnie

From: astorwilliam

To: Gouldian_Preservation_Association_101911@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 2:36 PM

Subject: [Gouldian_Preservation_Association_101911] To Daniel Wildemeersch - on Vit A

Daniel Wildemeersch wrote..

" Like recessive white canaries, they [ = Blue Gouldians ] can't make
vitamin A out of the pro-vitamin A, which can be found for example in
greens. "

1. Have there been any scientific experiments made that prove that 
Blue Gouldians cannot convert pro-Vitamin A to vitamin A ?
>> Yes.

2. If there is no scientific support for the statement that Blue
Gouldians cannot convert pro-Vitamin A to vitamin A, how did you draw
this conclusion ?
>> Not to the point. (see answer question 1)

As far as I know, pinkies sold in Belgium and Holland are the frozen
pink larvae of a fly. If so can you tell me what kind of fly and its
scientific name ?
>> They are indead larvae of flies but you can buy them alive also.

Then you have to cook them which is a disagreeable business (smell)

I don't know the scientific name.

Here in the UK, quite a few bird breeders have had their bird
collections destroyed overnight by feeding live housefly larvae
[maggots]. The reason for the birds dying has been found to be
botulinism bacteria.
>> First question: Did they cook them?
I know the biggest Belgian supplier of pinkies and he will not tell anybody the process of breeding these flies.

This is considered as a proffessional secret. 

Can you tell me whether you ever had birds dying in Belgium or
Holland after having been fed thawed out frozen pinkies  ?
>> In Belgium ; no / In Holland ; I don't know

How many grams of pinkies that are thawed out would you recommend
mixing with one kilo of orlux moist eggfood please ? Will this
mixture remain good to feed the birds for several weeks or months at
room temperature ?

>> In grams: I don't know. I give them frozen pinkies. Once they are on top of the eggfood I'm giving, they become thawed immediately.

I give them since 17 years. I give 10/15 frozen pinkies two times a day on top of the eggfood (per nest)

When they don't have babies in breeding-season; only 5 once a/day.(per pair)

The mixture even without pinkies at room temperature will not remain good to feed, not even for 1 day.

Some breeders put the eggfood in the refrigerator for the rest of the day, but not longer.

Longer is searching for problems.

I personally, prepare my eggfood two times a day, in the morning and in the evening.. always fresh!.

Best regards,

 

Daniël.

wida@...
Daniël Wildemeersch
http://surf.to/erythrura
Erythrura: Gould- & Papegaaiamadines.
Erythrura: Diamants de Gould & Erythrurés.
Erythrura: Gouldians & Parrot Finches.

--- In Gouldian_Preservation_Association_101911@y..., "gfinches2"
<Gfinches2@a...> wrote:

Winnie wrote...
> I am a novice as to inbreeding or line breeding, however, I think
James Watson and Daniel Wildemeersch are knowledgeable in this area.
However, I have done some reading on the subject. I would agree that
this type of breeding, which is necessary in some cases, would bring
out the best in some of the offspring, but it is my understanding
that it also produces some very weak offspring in the same clutch. <


Most serious canary breeders will tell you that the quickest way to
establish a winning stud, which can in turn produce high quality
young, is by line breeding. If the offspring happen to have
undesirable characteristics  you mate your ancestor cock with a
different hen until you get young with the characteristics that the
your ancestor cock has. It is not as problematic as it sounds. And
the results that I have seen are doubtlessly second to none. You
can't beat it.

>I have used environment and nutrition as the basis of breeding a
larger Gouldian rather than inbreeding or line breeding. Most people
who have seen my Gouldians think that they are some of the largest
that they have ever seen. I do not feel that line breeding is a must
to breed a strong Blue Gouldian. My question would be, if we can
breed larger Gouldians, including Normals and all mutations, and we
still find weakness in the Blue, then isn't it possible that it has
to do with some particular nutritional need in the Blue mutation??
Is it possible that the Blue Mutation does need extra zinc and
vitamin A?? I feel that the answer lies in nutrition. <

I am of the opinion that you CAN get Blue Gouldians with a genetic
makeup that make the birds need extra zinc and vitamin A for whatever
reason. I think that it would be better to start afresh with just 2
pairs of Blue Gouldians that you buy from a breeder who guarantees
that they do not need extra zinc and vitamin A in their diet. With
just 2 pairs, you can start line breeding them with your own normals
and produce your own split for blues.

>I use filtered water for my aviary and the reason that breeding
could decline with chorinated water is that chlorine destroys Vitamin
E. Vitamin E is often given to enhance fertility. Giving Gouldians an
option for drinking when giving medications would not insure that
they would get the prescribed dosage. <

To clarify this point, my experience teaches me that it is wrong to
force feed birds  anything UNLESS IT IS a properly dosed appropriate
antibiotic or wormer. Any other stuff however good we think it does
our birds, should be given ONLY ON AN OPTIONAL BASIS with de-
chlorinated water being present at all times. All I do is let mains
tap water stand in a bottle for 3 days or so.
Birds know best what to consume and how much. Please see my recent
posts on self medication at Finch Forum.


William

Daniel Wildemeersch wrote..

" Like recessive white canaries, they [ = Blue Gouldians ] can't make
vitamin A out of the pro-vitamin A, which can be found for example in
greens. "

1. Have there been any scientific experiments made that prove that
Blue Gouldians cannot convert pro-Vitamin A to vitamin A ?

2. If there is no scientific support for the statement that Blue
Gouldians cannot convert pro-Vitamin A to vitamin A, how did you draw
this conclusion ?

As far as I know, pinkies sold in Belgium and Holland are the frozen
pink larvae of a fly. If so can you tell me what kind of fly and its
scientific name ?

Here in the UK, quite a few bird breeders have had their bird
collections destroyed overnight by feeding live housefly larvae
[maggots]. The reason for the birds dying has been found to be
botulinism bacteria.

Can you tell me whether you ever had birds dying in Belgium or
Holland after having been fed thawed out frozen pinkies  ?

How many grams of pinkies that are thawed out would you recommend
mixing with one kilo of orlux moist eggfood please ? Will this
mixture remain good to feed the birds for several weeks or months at
room temperature ?
Thank you.

William

Hi William,

Thank you for informing us as to "pinkies" being frozen maggots, very
interesting.  Lea, a member of GPA 101911, feeds dried maggots known
as Soya Musca.  This product can be viewed at
http://www.skipio.com/product.htm#supplements and reading about the
product athttp://www.skipio.com/muscad1.htm.  Most insects are high
in vitamin A as well as being almost 50-60% protein.

I am a novice as to inbreeding or line breeding, however, I think
James Watson and Daniel Wildemeersch are knowledgeable in this area.
However, I have done some reading on the subject.  I would agree that
this type of breeding, which is necessary in some cases, would bring
out the best in some of the offspring, but it is my understanding
that it also produces some very weak offspring in the same clutch.  I
think James Watson could give us some input on this subject.

  I have used environment and nutrition as the basis of breeding a
larger Gouldian rather than inbreeding or line breeding. Most people
who have seen my Gouldians think that they are some of the largest
that they have ever seen. I do not feel that line breeding is a must
to breed a strong Blue Gouldian.  My question would be, if we can
breed larger Gouldians, including Normals and all mutations, and we
still find weakness in the Blue, then isn't it possible that it has
to do with some particular nutritional need in the Blue mutation??
Is it possible that the Blue Mutation does need  extra zinc and
vitamin A??  I feel that the answer lies in nutrition.

I use filtered water for my aviary and the reason that breeding could
decline with chorinated water is that chlorine destroys Vitamin E.
Vitamin E is often given to enhance fertility.  Giving Gouldians an
option for drinking when giving medications would not insure that
they would get the prescribed dosage.  However, giving an option for
drinking water with herbs might be acceptable.  I have not done any
experiments in giving optional drinking water.  However, Lea, another
member at GPA,  gives a bottle of clear water as well as one with
vitamins.

Regards,

Winnie

From:  "Daniel Wildemeersch" <wida@...>
Date:  Sun Aug 18, 2002  2:40 pm
Subject:  Re: [Gouldian_Preservation_Association] Reply to Blue
Mutation and Eye Problems


Hi GPA's,

I never heard of problems with the blue mutations so this item took
all my attention.

In Belgium all gouldians are cage bred.
We normally breed blues out of the combination "blue x split blue"
or "split blue x blue" because these birds still need the strenght of
the classic green birds.
We also recommend our members to breed their "split blue" birds
themselves so they are sure they are not related with their blue
birds.
By mating every time a "blue x split blue" or the reverse each new
born blue gouldian gets his two bluefactors from two non-related
birds with the intention to avoid problems in the blue mutation.
I agree with all the GPA members who wrote that these problems are
caused by inbreeding of the blue gouldians.
The proof blue gouldians without eye problems can be bred is there.

Over here we give our blues and whites weekly vitamine A.
As recessive white canaries they can't make vitamine A out of the pro-
vitamine A, which can be found for example in greens.
The consequence of vitamine A deficiency can provoke respiration
disturbances, sensitiveness for diseases, such as mould, loss of
feathers, ...
Be carefull: don't overdose vitamine A.
We are using vitamine A soluble in water (1 drop for 50 ml water)
I don't know of any problems with the blue gouldians in respect to
their fertility but we have noticed it's better to do the
combination "blue x split blue" than the reverse.
Blue females often give problems in laying eggs.

We give them a commercial eggfood, p.e. Cédé, Orlux, ... with a
multivitamine powder in it + pinkies, two times a day and if possible
3 times.

I give an example:
I know a breeder of blue gouldians and he has a 7 (yes seven) year
old blue male.
Every year this male raised his own babies and had never problems
with his fertility.
Only this year for the first time the eggs weren't good, so the
breeder gave them eggs of another pair and he and his female raised
them all!!!

Even after several years of pairings to split blues, the pairing blue
x blue gives strong nice blue birds.
But don't exaggerate: if you do it some generations you may expect
the young male birds will become more greyish like the females.
So the pairing to split blue is the best.

Best regards,

Daniël.

wida@...
Daniël Wildemeersch
http://surf.to/erythrura
Erythrura: Gould- & Papegaaiamadines.
Erythrura: Diamants de Gould & Erythrurés.
Erythrura: Gouldians & Parrot Finches

Subj: Re: James Watson Reply
Date: 8/18/2002 7:29:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: astorwilliam@...
To: GFINCHES2@...
Sent from the Internet (Details)


Hello to James and to GPA.

First of all I am so happy that you are from Australia because it is
the actual land of origin of the king of finches :) Thank you for
writing !! I would also like to point out that my interest lies not
just with Gouldians but various African, Asian and Latin American
finches.

I found your information very interesting.

>I have never seen a totally blind Gouldian of any colour. What I
have stated is that the blue gene in Australia is very weak and often
shows signs of partial blindness. All of the blue's that I have bred
have been very weak and a lot of them have shown partial blindness.

Do you colony breed them and have blue x blue pairs ?

Do you give them vitamins or anything else in solution without giving
them a choice of plain fresh water ?

I know this may sound like a daft question but my findings are
indicating that it is dangerous to force feed a bird anything that we
consider " for its own good " unless it is a properly dosed
antibiotic or wormer of course.

>Also one that I bought this season and one that my friend bought
last season also have impaired sight.

Can you answer the above 2 questions with regard to your friend ?

>I have also seen blues that have no apparent disability in this
regard, but given the problems that I have found with the blues, when
the splits and others around them are fit and healthy. The number of
people all over the world reporting eye problems with the blue
Gouldian,

Can you specify from what parts of the world these reported eye
problems are coming from ?

>This problem in Australia could very well be down to the breeding of
the original blues in this country. I believe they were bred in bird
farm conditions

Can you explain what you mean by this please ?

>I read with interest the report from Ben Oostendorp regarding his
breeding

of the blues. I can believe what he is saying because I know of one
breeder

here that claims to have been breeding blue to blue for six years (he
does

not breed split birds at all) That breeder is John Sammut, co author
of "A

guide to Gouldian Finches"

Can you explain what you mean by this please ?

Does this mean that John Sammut is getting partially blind and weak
Blue Gouldians ?

>In respect of the discussion of the red head genes, I must disagree
here

totally. The gene for producing red from lutein has nothing to do
with the production of either of the melanin's, eumelanin or
phaeomelanin.

Are you saying that 2 red headed genes activate the DEPOSITION BUT
NOT THE PRODUCTION of astaxantin from lutein in the head and beak tip
region ?

>The gene for black head does not control the production of eumelanin
either, it just stops the deposition of the red colour in the head.

What do you think causes the red pigment in the head ?

Is it the production and deposition of astaxantin ?

Is it the production and deposition of phaeomelanin ?

or is it the production and deposition of BOTH astaxantin and
phaeomelanin ?

Are you saying that 2 black headed genes do not stop the PRODUCTION
of astaxantin and phaeomelanin but merely stop the DEPOSITION of
astaxantin and phaeomelanin in the head region but not in the beak
tip ?

>The gene for producing astaxantin from lutein is present in all
normal

Gouldians be they black or red head. This is shown by the red beak in
both

head colours. (It is the same astaxantin as found in the head)

Okay.

>The mutation is the autosomal modifying gene of the yellow head.
This prevents the production of red pigment so the head, and the
beak, remain yellow.

So you are saying that 2 yellow headed genes stop the PRODUCTION of
astaxantin and phaeomelanin in the head AND beak ?

>The genes for the production of melanins, produce them for the total
bird,

not just the head. When eumelanin is produced it is deposited in the
head, back, tail and wings.

Yes, they may well do.

Is it deposited all over the body feathers not just the 4 regions you
mentioned, in a normal Gouldian ?

>When phaeomelanin is produced it is deposited mainly in the breast,
but in lesser quantities throughout the bird.

Are you saying that phaeomelanin is produced in EQUAL amounts in both
black headed and red headed normal Gouldians in their HEAD region ?

>The "gene for yellow back" in reality, has nothing to do with the
yellow pigment. It is a mutation that prevents the production of
eumelanin, and when there is no eumelanin in the back then you have
no structural blue, so the bird presents as a yellow back. When this
mutated gene is present, then you have no eumelanin in the head
either,(because the gene for head colour does not act independently
to the body colour) so then you have a cream coloured head. This is
the result of the phaeomelanin in the head. This cream coloured head
will be the same in a black head bird or a red/yellow head bird with
the cream colour in the red/yellow head naturally being restricted to
the surround of the red/yellow colour.

Are you saying that red headed yellow backs do not have any
phaeomelanin in their heads but only astaxantin ?

>The gene for white breast is also a mutated melanin gene, but in
this instance prevents the production of phaeomelanin. When there is
no phaeomelanin in the breast then you have a white breast.

According to Professor M. Vriends in his book " Gouldian finches"
published by Barrons, white breasted genes stop the production of not
just the phaeomelanin but eumelanin as well.

>As there is no phaeomelanin available for any part of the bird, when
coupled with the gene for yellow back, the head is white. I have only
ever seen one pure white Gouldian and her head was pure white. I have
no idea of her genetics so cant comment on the possibility of her
being black or red head. The beige head colour in the red head
white/blue birds can be the result of many things. As is well known,
a lot of the mutations are not 100 % in there action and there is
possibly a residue of phaeomelanin or astaxantine left, enough to
give a slight colour, but there is also the consideration that the
feather structure of the red head is different from that of the black
head and this might give the appearance of colour!

I will comment on the beige head colour of genetically red headed
white gouldians after I hear what you have to say to my above
queries.

Until later... William

----- Original Message -----
From: GFINCHES2@...
To: astorwilliam@...
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: James Watson Reply


From:  "James R Watson" <zabadak@...>
Date:  Sat Aug 17, 2002  12:31 am
Subject:  Re: [Gouldian_Preservation_Association] Reply from William
Astor. Blue Mutation and Eye Problems


Hello to William and to GPA.

I feel I have to open a discussion with William re his post.

Firstly I must clarify Winnie's comment "I learned from James that
most of the Blue Gouldian's in Australia are partially or totally
blind"
I have never seen a totally blind Gouldian of any colour. What I have
stated
is that the blue gene in Australia is very weak and often shows signs
of
partial blindness. All of the blue's that I have bred have been very
weak
and a lot of them have shown partial blindness. Also one that I
bought this
season and one that my friend bought last season also have impaired
sight.
I have also seen blues that have no apparent disability in this
regard, but
given the problems that I have found with the blues, when the splits
and
others around them are fit and healthy. The number of people all over
the
world reporting eye problems with the blue Gouldian, would suggest
that the
blue gene is passing on a predisposition to eye problems. I don't
pretend to
know what or why but there is no doubt that it exists.

This problem in Australia could very well be down to the breeding of
the
original blues in this country. I believe they were bred in bird farm
conditions when they first became available and being sold at
$A1000.00 per
bird. the same old story I'm afraid, where money talks louder than
anything
else.

I read with interest the report from Ben Oostendorp regarding his
breeding
of the blues. I can believe what he is saying because I know of one
breeder
here that claims to have been breeding blue to blue for six years (he
does
not breed split birds at all) That breeder is John Sammut, co author
of "A
guide to Gouldian Finches"
Given all of the above, and accepting that I am rather isolated where
I am,
I still find no reason to change my mind that the Blue Gouldian, in
general,
has an eye problem. I also believe that it is more widely spread than
might
be thought, as it is Human nature not to talk about things that might
affect
the saleability of ones birds!!

In respect of the discussion of the red head genes, I must disagree
here
totally.

The gene for producing red from lutein has nothing to do with the
production
of either of the melanin's, eumelanin or phaeomelanin. The gene for
black
head does not control the production of eumelanin either, it just
stops the
deposition of the red colour in the head.

The gene for producing astaxantine from lutein is present in all
normal
Gouldian's be they black or red head. This is shown by the red beak
in both
head colours. (It is the same astaxantine as found in the head) The
mutation
is the autosomal modifying gene of the yellow head. This prevents the
production of red pigment so the head, and the beak, remain yellow.

The genes for the production of melanin's, produce them for the total
bird,
not just the head. When eumelanin is produced it is deposited in the
head,
back, tail and wings. When phaeomelanin is produced it is deposited
mainly
in the breast, but in lesser quantities throughout the bird.

The "gene for yellow back" in reality, has nothing to do with the
yellow
pigment. It is a mutation that prevents the production of eumelanin,
and
when there is no eumelanin in the back then you have no structural
blue, so
the bird presents as a yellow back. When this mutated gene is
present, then
you have no eumelanin in the head either,(because the gene for head
colour
does not act independently to the body colour) so then you have a
cream
coloured head. This is the result of the phaeomelanin in the head.
This
cream coloured head will be the same in a black head bird or a
red/yellow
head bird with the cream colour in the red/yellow head naturally being
restricted to the surround of the red/yellow colour.

The gene for white breast is also a mutated melanin gene, but in this
instance prevents the production of phaeomelanin. When there is no
phaeomelanin in the breast then you have a white breast. As there is
no
phaeomelanin available for any part of the bird, when coupled with
the gene
for yellow back, the head is white.

I have only ever seen one pure white Gouldian and her head was pure
white. I
have no idea of her genetics so cant comment on the possibility of
her being
black or red head. The beige head colour in the red head white/blue
birds
can be the result of many things. As is well known, a lot of the
mutations
are not 100 % in there action and there is possibly a residue of
phaeomelanin or astaxantine left, enough to give a slight colour, but
there
is also the consideration that the feather structure of the red head
is
different from that of the black head and this might give the
appearance of
colour!

I look forward to comments.....James

Subj: Re: Hello from Nottingham :)
Date: 8/18/2002 6:19:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From: astorwilliam@...
To: GFINCHES2@...
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Hi Winnie,

> First, I want to ask if you would consider joining GPA 101911, which
is a new
> Yahoo Group which I opened on 8.1.02.

Sure why not ?
>
> Now, I will answer your E-mail. I know that James Watson wrote that
> inbreeding of the Blues in Australia is a known fact. The American
Dilute is
> sex linked like the Dilute in Europe.  I am not understanding what
Dilutes
> having red eyes in the nest has to do with possible partial
blindness.  Could
> you explain your thinking on this matter?

I seem to remember that albinos of any animal species which have red
eyes tend to suffer from partial or total blindness but I am not sure
on this.

We will have to wait for James
> Watson to reply about any partially blind Dilutes which may have
been found
> in Australia.

The Australian Dilute Gouldian is a mystery to me because Dr. Marshall
is not likely to be wrong when he says that it is an autosomal
recessive mutation.

>
> I found it interesting that Ben does not use hard boiled egg because
I don't
> either.  Are pinkies what we call meal worms in the USA and are they
alive or
> dried??  Insects are very high in zinc.

As far as I aware, pinkies are frozen maggots of a small fly. You thaw
them out and mix with the eggfood.
>
> We do not inbreed or line breed any of our birds.

Just as I thought. Although this is not hard proof, it confirms the
idea that line breeding blues is a must if you want strong type birds.

>I have bred only unrelated birds, to the best of my knowledge, for
the past five years,
> until this season.

According to Ben, this makes no difference at all. You still will get
offspring that are weaker and smaller than the parents.

This season I bred a first cousin without having known the
> relationship before I mated the pair, because one of the birds had
been owned
> by my daughter.  Bands and genealogy records are carefully
maintained. We
> only do breeding in cages.  I only give my Gouldians clean water
every day
> without additives of any nature, unless one is having a difficulty.
>

Do you let the mains tap water stand for a few days to let the
chlorine seep away before giving it to the birds ?

When I was investigating how to use antibacterial herbs to cure
finches with bacterial infections, I found that feeding them ANYTHING
that is antibacterial whether in solution or in eggfood WITHOUT GIVING
THEM A CHOICE led to birds becoming sicker. It was only after I
started giving my birds an option that they started to improve.
Russell Kingston also confirms my findings of giving chlorinated tap
water to our birds. He writes on page
69 of his overpriced book " Keeping and breeding finches and
seedeaters ",
" I recall many years ago, when our local government introduced
chlorintated watre to our city, the breedign results of some of my
bird species dropped dramatically and remained at a lower level. One
species in particular, the Red Strawberry finch suffered a 60% drop in
results.  "

Warm regards,

William

From:  "James R Watson" <zabadak@...>
Date:  Sat Aug 17, 2002  10:02 pm
Subject:  Re: [Gouldian_Preservation_Association] Copy of reply from
William Astor


Hello William, GPA


> Ben always cage bred his blue Gouldian's. Each bird had a closed
ring
> and split plastic ring. This made it easy for him to always know the
> pedigree of each bird in his stud. So he always bred the right
birds.
> In an aviary you cannot do this.
>

With all due respect I think that William might be suffering
from "Down in
the Colonies" syndrome.
We do have closed rings and cage breeding here in Australia too, and
we do
practice selective breeding. I believe that anyone breeding mutations,
especially recessive ones, needs to do this to control the mutation.
In a
colony situation the gene would be very quickly lost.
I would dispute the statement that:

> > Australians are having blind blue Gouldians is because it is their
> habit to
> > colony breed their Gouldians in outside aviaries"

While I colony breed my normals, and indeed some of the possible
splits, my
mutations are all bred under controlled conditions, and I am sure
most other
responsible breeders do the same. People who just have some
Gouldian's in an
aviary for pleasure are unlikely to have blues.


I would be interested in Williams interpretation of line breeding, as
opposed to inbreeding. In most cases "line breeding" is just a fancy
name
for inbreeding. Strictly speaking, the mating of related birds is "In
Breeding". Some people, when mating birds that are related, but not
siblings or parents to siblings, claim that they line breed but would
never
inbreed!! Inbreeding is an excellent way of eliminating unwanted
genes from
your breeding pool. You only need to look at the mice bred in research
facilities to see this. Many of them have been bred for countless
generations and are still strong healthy stock. It is all in the
control
exercised.



> According to Dr. Rob Marshall in his book on Gouldians, the Dilute
> Gouldian in Australia is an autosomal recessive mutation. [ see p.37
> of his book. ] Now as far as I know the European Pastel or Dilute
> Gouldian is a sex linked mutation. I do not know about the American
> Dilute Gouldian.
> Now Dr. Marshall writes that Dilue Gouldians of Australia have red
> eyes when they hatch BUT their eyes darken like those of Normal
> hatchlings after a few days. I am just wondering whether the
> Australians have blind Dilute Gouldians as well.

I can assure William that the "Dilute Back" in Australia has no such
affliction.
I have this past season, mated a split blue hen to a Dilute Back, in
an
effort to eliminate the eye problem in the blues. My one concern is
the fact
that I might be introducing the eye problem to the Dilute Back, and
not the
reverse. You can be assured that this will be strictly controlled,
and none
of the offspring, from this line, will leave my aviaries until I am
certain
they have not inherited the problem.



> Yes. He showed the eggfood. He did not use hard boiled eggs at all.
> Just a good commercial eggfood and he added pinkies to it.

I must now show my ignorance and ask "What are/is pinkies?"

Regards.....James

Subj: Re: Hello from Nottingham :)
Date: 8/17/2002 9:54:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: GFINCHES2
To: astorwilliam@...



Hi William,

First, I want to ask if you would consider joining GPA 101911, which
is a new Yahoo Group which I opened on 8.1.02. I could ask James
Watson to join and we could communicate at this site without my
passing E-mails between you and James. I would post the E-mails
relating to Blues and eye problems which have been written to date
and we could take it from that point at GPA 101911. GPA 101911 has
not been listed in the Yahoo directory and has not been open to
unrestricted membership. However, I plan to list the group and open
it to unrestricted membership in the near future. What is you
thinking on joining GPA 101911??

Now, I will answer your E-mail. I know that James Watson wrote that
inbreeding of the Blues in Australia is a known fact. The American
Dilute is sex linked like the Dilute in Europe. I am not
understanding what Dilutes having red eyes in the nest has to do with
possible partial blindness. Could you explain your thinking on this
matter? We will have to wait for James Watson to reply about any
partially blind Dilutes which may have been found in Australia.

I found it interesting that Ben does not use hard boiled egg because
I don't either. Are pinkies what we call meal worms in the USA and
are they alive or dried?? Insects are very high in zinc.

We do not inbreed or line breed any of our birds. I have bred only
unrelated birds, to the best of my knowledge, for the past five
years, until this season. This season I bred a first cousin without
having known the relationship before I mated the pair, because one of
the birds had been owned by my daughter. Bands and genealogy records
are carefully maintained. We only do breeding in cages. I only give
my Gouldians clean water every day without additives of any nature,
unless one is having a difficulty.

Regards,
Winnie

From:  "akeeto" <akeeto@...>
Date:  Sat Aug 17, 2002  2:45 pm
Subject:  Re: [Gouldian_Preservation_Association] Reply from William
Astor. Blue Mutation and Eye Problems


Hello All,

James wrote:
>>This problem in Australia could very well be down to the breeding
of the
original blues in this country. I believe they were bred in bird farm
conditions when they first became available and being sold at
$A1000.00 per
bird. the same old story I'm afraid, where money talks louder than
anything<<

It is my firm belief that the above statement from James is the crux
of the problem with Blue Gouldians in the U.S. as well as in
Australia, for the most part.  I DO believe their are a few strong
Blue Gouldians that have been established in the U.S. and not all
breeders of Blues do have a problem in their lines.  I have seen to
many very healthy 2 and 3 year old Blues for this to not be the
case.  However, these healthy birds are never for sale, making it
near impossible to bring in strong outcross Blue bloodlines into ones
own aviary.
I have a very healthy 3 year old pastel blue male that produced and
fed 5 beautiful offspring last year and he and his mate are at it
again this year.  Keeping all of their offspring from last year and
crossing them with outcross hopeful Blue splits from Delmar should
produce some healthy Blues by all rights, time will tell.  The
problem arises with not having more outcross birds to bring in to
breed to these later offspring to, resulting in having to breed right
back in to your original Blue stock.  This is not nearly distant
enough to develop a long strong line of any new mutation.
I have tried getting my hands on another good healthy Blue in order
to develop a second strong line in my aviary and it has been
impossible to find one yet.  Oh I know several breeders that
supposedly breed "great" blues but these breeders have yet to have
one for sale.  Purchasing outcross split for blues is not to terribly
difficult, with time and patience, and seems to be the only viable
way to turn in hopes of developing a healthy strong line of Blues.

Does breeding for Blues have it's own set of genetic problems
regarding the eyes and overall health, without the inbreeding
issues?  The answer to this would most likely be yes since history
has proven that most all mutant genes seem to have a problem or
problems to overcome in the breeding room. However, I do believe it
would be much less serious a problem than it is now with the
inbreeding that has been done to date.
The development of the Lutino Cockatiel is an excellent example of
how careful breeding can result in a strong new mutation!  When RE's
(red eyes or Lutinos') began showing up in the Cockatiel breeding
rooms, they were not without their mutant problem which was a huge
bald spot on the back of the head that became very visible when the
crest was raised.  This bald spot still does appear on Lutino Tiels,
even after all these years of breeding.  The bald spot is much
smaller than it used to be but nonetheless still shows up from time
to time.
James is so correct when stating that the almighty dollar wins out!
The sad thing is that a persons greed is at the expense of a lot of
precious little bird lives.
Just this morning I lost my first Gouldian hatchling, due to the
parents being first timers and my Societies not being old enough to
feed, and it broke my heart the same today as it did over 10 years
ago when I began raising Canaries and lost my first hatchlings then.
My point to saying this is, why would breeders want to continue
pairing these known weak birds up, only for the offspring to suffer
and die for whatever reason, if it is not for that almighty dollar!
I'll just shut up about this now because I could go on and on about
the cold hearted and hasty ways of people when it comes to animals of
any kind.
We should practice "true nature" examples of breeding and many of
these problems would be much less issues than they are.
New mutations can be developed through careful breeding and without
expending so many little lives.  I said I would shut up didn't I.....

In respect to the discussion of the RH genes, James is correct in his
statements according to the genetics studies I have been doing.

Why is Lipochrome not discussed in relation to the Lady Gouldian??  I
hear about the phaeomelinin, eumelanin and melanin, carotenoids,
etc., but do not recall lipochrome, which is responsible for yellow,
being mentioned.

These genetics are not so easy to understand and can be very
confusing for 'most' any one at any time.  I will be posting an
article on Avian Genetics written by Anthony Olszewski.  It is well
worth printing out and reading as one has the time to read without
interruption.  I speak for myself when I say "without interruption"
because it takes all of my concentration and undivided attention to
take in all that I am reading when studying such a deep subject as
genetics is. 2+2 does NOT equal 4 in genetics!!  :)


Sincerely,
Lea Gullett

Hi James,

I found your reply to William interesting and very informative. I
will forward your reply to William. I have given some consideration
to inviting William to the GPA, but will give it a little more time.
I am glad to know that you agree that it is fact that Blues do show
more weakness. This can also be seen in the breeding of dogs and
cats as they were redefined through selective breeding and
mutations.

One thing I have noticed concerning the Yellow, Blue and Silver,
since I have a flight cages containing only these colors, is that
they are far more nervous and flighty. This is also seen in various
breeds of dogs and cats. This factor alone would affect their
health. To further give credence that the Blues should be viewed as
to their particular needs, we have observed that even the eggs show a
different rate of fertility. The Normals usually show by the 3rd day
and the Blues show most often by the 5th day. Most often, Split Blue
eggs also show fertility at a slower rate than Normals. Quite often
the Yellows, Blues and Silvers take longer to feather in the nest,
but not always. Also, I separate my clutches into two nests, choosing
the most fertile for one of the nests, and the babies which hatche
and fledge first are the Normals from a mixed clutch.

They also mature slower than Normals after fledging and sometimes
have to stay with the parents longer than Normals. At times we have
moved the Blues along with Normals from the parents, only to return
them in a few hours because they pout and puff up. Having returned
them to the parents for a few more days, they do just fine. I have
already stated to you in prior E-mails that the Blue and Silver also
have a higher need for carbohydrates as juveniles, which again has to
do with the role of zinc in the digestive system of the Blues. I
have also noted that Blues, if they show any sign of stress, do
better in a small cage than a flight.

And lastly, they most definitely have more eye problems and
respiratory problems. I will eventually post the statistics from all
the Blues I have purchased and reared. An elderly friend of mine
who has been breeding for years and years would also substantiate
what I have observed. Some breeders who state that their Blues do not
show any signs of weakness quite often have never had very many Blues
to observe. Those who honestly have had a lot of Blues and have not
had any problems whatsoever are few and we can learn from these
breeders. I feel that we have to face the facts and work toward a
solution.

I have some E-mails from William which I will post now and this
evening I will do some replies.

Regards,

Winnie

Hello to William and to GPA.

I feel I have to open a discussion with William re his post.

Firstly I must clarify Winnie's comment "I learned from James that
most of the Blue Gouldian's in Australia are partially or totally
blind"
I have never seen a totally blind Gouldian of any colour. What I have
stated
is that the blue gene in Australia is very weak and often shows signs
of
partial blindness. All of the blue's that I have bred have been very
weak
and a lot of them have shown partial blindness. Also one that I
bought this
season and one that my friend bought last season also have impaired
sight.
I have also seen blues that have no apparent disability in this
regard, but
given the problems that I have found with the blues, when the splits
and
others around them are fit and healthy. The number of people all over
the
world reporting eye problems with the blue Gouldian, would suggest
that the
blue gene is passing on a predisposition to eye problems. I don't
pretend to
know what or why but there is no doubt that it exists.

This problem in Australia could very well be down to the breeding of
the
original blues in this country. I believe they were bred in bird farm
conditions when they first became available and being sold at
$A1000.00 per
bird. the same old story I'm afraid, where money talks louder than
anything
else.

I read with interest the report from Ben Oostendorp regarding his
breeding
of the blues. I can believe what he is saying because I know of one
breeder
here that claims to have been breeding blue to blue for six years (he
does
not breed split birds at all) That breeder is John Sammut, co author
of "A
guide to Gouldian Finches"
Given all of the above, and accepting that I am rather isolated where
I am,
I still find no reason to change my mind that the Blue Gouldian, in
general,
has an eye problem. I also believe that it is more widely spread than
might
be thought, as it is Human nature not to talk about things that might
affect
the saleability of ones birds!!

In respect of the discussion of the red head genes, I must disagree
here
totally.

The gene for producing red from lutein has nothing to do with the
production
of either of the melanin's, eumelanin or phaeomelanin. The gene for
black
head does not control the production of eumelanin either, it just
stops the
deposition of the red colour in the head.

The gene for producing astaxantine from lutein is present in all
normal
Gouldian's be they black or red head. This is shown by the red beak
in both
head colours. (It is the same astaxantine as found in the head) The
mutation
is the autosomal modifying gene of the yellow head. This prevents the
production of red pigment so the head, and the beak, remain yellow.

The genes for the production of melanin's, produce them for the total
bird,
not just the head. When eumelanin is produced it is deposited in the
head,
back, tail and wings. When phaeomelanin is produced it is deposited
mainly
in the breast, but in lesser quantities throughout the bird.

The "gene for yellow back" in reality, has nothing to do with the
yellow
pigment. It is a mutation that prevents the production of eumelanin,
and
when there is no eumelanin in the back then you have no structural
blue, so
the bird presents as a yellow back. When this mutated gene is
present, then
you have no eumelanin in the head either,(because the gene for head
colour
does not act independently to the body colour) so then you have a
cream
coloured head. This is the result of the phaeomelanin in the head.
This
cream coloured head will be the same in a black head bird or a
red/yellow
head bird with the cream colour in the red/yellow head naturally being
restricted to the surround of the red/yellow colour.

The gene for white breast is also a mutated melanin gene, but in this
instance prevents the production of phaeomelanin. When there is no
phaeomelanin in the breast then you have a white breast. As there is
no
phaeomelanin available for any part of the bird, when coupled with
the gene
for yellow back, the head is white.

I have only ever seen one pure white Gouldian and her head was pure
white. I
have no idea of her genetics so cant comment on the possibility of
her being
black or red head. The beige head colour in the red head white/blue
birds
can be the result of many things. As is well known, a lot of the
mutations
are not 100 % in there action and there is possibly a residue of
phaeomelanin or astaxantine left, enough to give a slight colour, but
there
is also the consideration that the feather structure of the red head
is
different from that of the black head and this might give the
appearance of
colour!

I look forward to comments.....James

Subj: Re: Hello from Nottingham :)
Date: 8/16/2002 6:57:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: GFINCHES2
To: astorwilliam@...



Hi William,

Thank you for sending your writing about your studies of the Blue
Gouldian Mutation and eye problems. I have posted your E-mail to the
GPA and will forward comments from James Watson and Daniel
Wildemeersch.

I can appreciate your feeling that I can forget about Blue Gouldians
having a genetic tendency to either go blind or catch infections more
easily or more often than Normal Gouldians. However, I feel that the
basis for this statement is too narrow. I do understand your writing
about Leutin, and I find this useful and interesting information.
However, I have never considered that the inability of a Blue
Gouldian to absorb Leutin was the cause factor.

I found your conversation with Mr. Ben Oostendorp both interesting
and informative. I do believe that Ben has related the truth as he
has perceived and observed it in his own aviary. You wrote "The most
likely reason why the Australians are having blind blue Gouldians is
because it is their habit to colony breed their Gouldians in outside
aviaries" Are you indicating that the Blue Mutation in Australia is
too closely bred by inbreeding rather than line breeding?? I am
wondering if you also inquired of Ben as to his environment and
nutrition for the Blue mutation. Perhaps there is something we could
learn in this area especially about the source of D3, zinc and
Vitamin A.

Even though I do feel that the Blue Mutation has been bred too
closely by some breeders, I do not feel that this is the total cause
for the problems we are discussing. I know that it has not been a
cause factor in my aviary, nor in my associate breeder friend's
aviaries. However, I do feel that the environment and nutrition play
major roles in the Blue showing more weakness. Pascal wrote the
following on his web site at
(http://www.geocities.com/aviando74/)"BlueBoy, always sick." This
indicates that he has had Blues who have been consistently ill. I
have read of various writers who state the same observation.

I feel that further research needs to be done in relation to the
absorption of calcium in relation to D3 or direct sunlight. The
affect of too much calcium is the displacement of zinc and zinc is
needed to make melanin in the coloring of the feathers. Without
adequate zinc, Vitamin A, which is stored in the liver, cannot be
utilized. And of course both zinc and Vitamin A are needed for
healthy eyes in animals, as well as contributing to a healthy immune
system. An optometrist, which recently removed cataracts from my
husband's eyes, related the effect of particular nutritional needs of
some people groups verses others in eye surgery. He also related
studies done on zinc and the comparison of the human eye with bird's
eyes. I felt my conversation with the optometrist further indicated
a need to study the particular nutritional needs of the Blue mutation
for healthy eyes and immune system.

I would appreciate any information about studies in relation to the
D3, zinc and Vitamin A with eye problems in the Blue Gouldian
mutation. Again, I want to thank you for sending your excellent
writing about the Leutin and the Blue mutation.

Regards,
Winnie

Subj: Hello from Nottingham :)
Date: 8/16/2002 4:18:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: astorwilliam@...
To: GFINCHES2@...
Sent from the Internet (Details)


Dear Winnie,

First of all, I must make it clear that the reason I told Claude that
Blue Gouldians could have eye problems was because Professor Vriends
in a book on Gouldians said that they cannot absorb carotene in the
food by which they could manufacture Vitamin A. I explained this to
Gail in the Finch Forum.

I have some very good news for you. You can forget all about Blue
Gouldians having a genetic tendency to either go blind or catch
infection more easily or more often than Normal Gouldians.

I am writing down what I have learnt these past few days with a lot of
searching and a Dutch article which I translated years ago and the
information that a Dutch breeder, Ben Oostendorp, told me. The books
simply do not give you this information.

First of all, Professor Matthew Vriends is wrong in what he writes in
his book. This seems incredible considering his credentials but I have
proof to indicate that he is wrong !!!

The truth seems to be as follows.
The genes for red headedness cause the production by the bird of

1. astaxantin from lutein if lutein is able to be absorbed from the
gut [ Gouldians with two blue genes cannot absorb lutein contained in
food. ]

2. phaeomelanin in the head feathers.

3. eumelanin in the head feathers.

It is these three pigments that the genes for red headedness seem to
produce.

The genes for black headedness cause the production by the bird of
eumelanin ONLY.

The proof that I have come up with, that shows that the above
information is correct is as follows.

It is found that in White Gouldians, you can always tell which are
black headed and which are red headed because red headed White
Gouldians always have a light beige colour around the head whereas
black headed White Gouldians have an almost white head colour. [ It
was the Dutch article which said this and Ben Oostendorp who
independently confirmed it. ] The explanation for this is as follows.

Black headed genes cause the production of eumelanin which produces a
black head in the normal Gouldian. But in the presence of 2 yellow
back genes and 2 white breasted genes, the amount of eumelanin that is
produced in the head is almost totally reduced. So the bird ends up
with an almost white head.

Phaeomelanin on the other hand is a pinkish brown pigment.

In the presence of 2 yellow back genes and 2 white breasted genes, the
amount of phaeomelanin and eumelanin that the red headed genes produce
is almost totally reduced. So the bird ends up with a BEIGE head which
is what happens when you dilute the pinkish brown colour.

Astaxantin is not produced at all because White Gouldians do not
absorb lutein due to their 2 blue genes which prevent this from
happening.

I am quite surprised that given the scientific backgound that Vriends
has, he TWICE refers to the carotene pigment which causes the red head
colour !!! Using such a term is totally misleading and scientifically
inaccurate !!!

If you want to check what I am saying consult the book called
"Gouldian finches" by Mathew Vriends Ph.D. published by Barrons.

On page 70, Right column, Third paragraph, he writes..

" The recessive inheritiance in yellow headed Gouldians is in fact a
loss mutation. The birds are not capable of converting the yellow
carotene into red. [ any of three isomeric red hydrocarbons found in
many plants, especially carrots, and transformed into vitamin A in the
liver ]. If we analyze the fat colour in the feather of a red headed
male, we will find pure astaxantin, where as that from a yellow headed
male will produce mainly lutein. "

Clearly what he is saying about carotene [ i.e precursor of Vitamin
A ] is NONSENSE.

It is not yellow carotene that the yellow headed bird cannot convert
into red BUT lutein !!!

Page 73, Left column, fourth paragraph contains a similar carotene
pigment reference which is misleading and scientifically inaccurate.

I e-mailed Pascal privately about this who told me studied Biology for
four years and breeds Blue Gouldians. He agreed with me that these
were errors. And he has the book himself.

About 5 years ago, I got in touch with an excellent Blue Gouldian
finch breeder from Rosendaal in Holland. I went to buy Blue Gouldians
from him then. I bought some of his Blues and Split for Blues and they
were birds of superb size and superb health. When I I saw his Blue
Gouldians for the first time in his quiet and clean birdroom, I could
not believe my eyes.

I had never seen Gouldians which were so large and yet they did not
look disproportional like an Exhibition budgerigar looks
disproportional when you compare it to a wild budgerigar. Have you got
Exhibition budgerigars in America ?

They looked like a normal Gouldian but of larger size and the cocks
were not smaller than the hens but of equal size. Also I liked the
beaks. The beaks were large and smooth, level with the forehead, not
above it.

They underwent a rough ride in small boxes from Holland to England
without any food or water. And they came out looking great. Those
birds were very strong indeed.

When I phoned Ben Ostendorp this afternoon about your query I recorded
the conversation on tape just to make sure that I would not miss
anything he told me. This is the text...

BEN OOSTENDORP

Me: Have the Blue Gouldians that you have bred in the past 40 years
ever went blind at all ?

Ben : No, never. I have never seen in the years that I have been
breeding Gouldians one blind Gouldian !!! Never. I never have bred a
Blue Gouldian hatchliing which had red eyes. The hatchlings' eyes were
always black.

Me: Okay, do you think that Blue Gouldians catch infection more easily
than normal Gouldians ?

Ben: No, no. I can tell you. Forty years ago, there was a breeder in
Holland called Mr. Van Breda, who was the first to breed Blue
Gouldians, He bred them from Dilute backs and Yellow backs and he
never bred one blind Gouldian.

A lot of Belgian breeders give medication to their Gouldians. It is
not normal. I never used to medicate my birds.All I dd, was give them
fresh water every day. Commercial eggfood with pinkies in it.

When I had a sick bird, I used to put it in a hospital cage for a week
but if it did not get better in that time, I used to kill it. Sorry
but that is the best way. If you keep the ill bird in the birdroom, it
is going to be a source of infection to the whole flock.

I always bred a Blue Gouldian with a Split for Blue and always a black
head with a black head. And I always chose a Split for blue bird with
a yellow tipped beak for line breeding with a blue Gouldian. That is
the best black head to use for blue Gouldian breeding.

I consider Mr. Ben Oostendorp as someone who is giving me reliable
information and I tell you why. About a month ago, he told me that now
after 40 years of breeding Gouldians, he has had to stop keeping birds
for health reasons. When I phoned him today about your query, if he
were still breeding blue Gouldians, I could maybe suspect that he may
lie to me in order for me to keep on buying his Gouldians.

He has nothing to gain by telling me lies.

Winnie, you have my permission to post the information that I am
giving you to the Gouldian Preservation Association. In fact I would
be very interested in what the Australians have to say about this. The
most likely reason why the Australians are having blind blue Gouldians
is because it is their habit to colony breed their Gouldians in
outside aviaries. They may not line breed their mutations like Ben
Ostendorp did. Line breeding is a very neat way of spreading the genes
of a very good specimen to more and more gouldians through 2
generations. I guarantee you it works because I have seen Ben's birds
and they looked like out of this world.

Daniel Wildermeersch is a Belgian if I remember correctly. I would be
interested in what he has to say as well.

Warm Wishes,

William

Subj: Hello from Cleveland, TN (Goulds2002)
Date: 8/15/2002 10:35:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: GFINCHES2
To: astorwilliam@...



Hi William,

In April 2001 I corresponded with you under the E-mail address of
Goulds2001. We discussed the use of herbs and I gave you the
Holisticbird List. You respected my desire to remain anonymous and
your last E-mail sent of 4.21.01 read as follows:

Hi,

How can I even thank you!! You have given me hope for my Gouldians
AND ALSO strangely enough for my more robust African and Asian
finches which do occasionally fall ill as well.

I will keep you informed through posting my findings at Holisticbird
list. PLEASE e-mail me personally you feel you have important
information that you can pass on anytime.

A million thanks!!!

William Astor
Nottingham, England.

Well William, I have watched every E-group where there might be
Gouldian information. There were long stretches of time when I did
not see any post from you on any E-Groups. Then the past few weeks
you have been active on the Finch Forum. WOW! Have you ever become
a scholar of herbs and alternative medications for finches. You have
been writing some fantastic posts and I want to commend you on your
study and your writing. I am hoping that you do not let the
negativity by some others on the list discourage your study and your
posting.

I noticed that you answered Claude in Montreal concerning his three
Blue Gouldians which he stated had eye problems. I also noted that
you did not get much support for your statement that Blues do have
more eye problems than Normal Gouldians. I want you to know that I
do agree with you on this subject. Have you corresponded privately
with Claude concerning the Blues?? I am thinking that I would like
to correspond with him on this subject.

I have opened a Yahoo E-Group recently, called Gouldian Preservation
Association. It is a small, select, unlisted group which is used as
a depository for E-mail concerning Gouldian studies. Both James
Watson and Daniel Wildemeersch are members of GPA. I noticed that
James replied to your post concerning Leutin on Gouldianfinchplus E-
Group. James Watson lives in Perth, Australia. Daniel is the owner
of the Erythura site at http://www.erythrura.yucom.be/engouldm.htm.
I have been corresponding with James for several months and Daniel,
who had also corresponded with James, also joined the GPA shortly
after it was opened.

We have mostly been studying new Gouldian mutations since I opened
the group on June 14, 2002. However, one of the subjects which I want
to bring to the GPA is the weaknesses found in the Blue Gouldian
mutation, especially the eye problem. Some breeders will not admit
that the Blue Mutation has any weakness. I learned from James that
most of the Blue Gouldians in Australia are partially or totally
blind and that he has not been successful with Blues. We do not have
the same degree of eye problem in the Blue Gouldian in the USA as
they have in Australia. However, I have noted that Blue Gouldians in
the USA do have more eye problems, which is really a sinus infection,
than Normals. I have also noted that they have more respiratory
infections. I have some theories which has to do with sunlight, zinc
and Vitamin A. However, we need to do a lot of research to come to
some firm conclusions.

I am requesting that you would write me an E-mail stating why you
think the Blue Gouldian has more eye problems than Normals and asking
permission to post this E-mail at Gouldian Preservation Association.
I would also be interested in posting what you have learned
concerning carotene and any other nutrition which affect the Blue
Gouldian in particular.


Kind regards,

Winnie

Was it the brilliant colors or the way Opal turned her head when I
approached her cage in a local pet store? What has caused me to
become attracted to this Australian songbird? What has kept me
focused for the past 5 years since I got my first pair of Gouldians
as a Mother's Day gift in May 1996? Having lived 11 years in
Australia and knowing that the Gouldian Finch is on the endangered
list certainly caught my attention. Maybe it was their beauty and
having heard the songbirds birds which we had fed in the backyard.
Perhaps it was the challenge for study during the years when I was
forced to stay at home due to a back injury.

Is it a business or a hobby? It certainly has not been solely for
financial gain. Probably some of both elements are involved in
maintaining my interest in Gouldians. A business because I have a
business license, tax number, and report to the IRS. According to
the IRS, I am a farmer. Having been reared on a farm in New York,
which has been in the family 192 years,. I can hold my head up high
to the title of farmer. A hobby because my husband says that with
the hours spent in study and care, I make less than 5 cents an hour.

I have studied all the material I could find in the USA and
Australia . I have monitored 15 E-Groups via the Internet where
breeders pool their knowledge and skill. I have also corresponded
with the Director of the Gouldian Recovery Project in Katherine, NT,
and other Australian breeders and biologists an effort to understand
the reason for their decline to less than 500 pairs in the wild of
Australia. The time spent has been given out of love and devotion to
a fascinating and intelligent bird. My 40 breeding pairs are trained
and given free flying in the off season. It is rewarding to see my
12x20 bird room graced with living art. A spectacular site indeed!

Selected breeding stock from 63 unrelated pairs of Gouldians have
been used to develop the Delmar Gouldian. I have purposely sold to a
few select persons, mainly to friends who share the same passion for
the Gouldians, so that the Gouldians could be observed and documented
over a period of years. This association of Gouldian breeder friends
gave birth to the Gouldian Preservation Association who presently
communicate internationally on a Yahoo E-Group.

GPA members have formed a mutual bond of commitment to breeding a
strong Gouldian. Our approach to Gouldian care giving has been from
the natural or holistic perspective. Observing, studying and
documenting their health and breeding success has been a priority.
GPA 101911 is an extension of the Gouldian Preservation Association.
Questions which can not be answered at GPA 101911 will be referred to
GPA for further study.


We are not professional writers nor do we consider that we have
learned all that there is to know about Gouldians. However, we do
want to share some of what we have learned with stories and photos of
our birds. Genetics for the Gouldian Finch have only been studied
since 1990, and there is yet much to be learned about Gouldians. It
is exciting to know that a  new Gouldian mutation may unfold in your
aviary and develop into radiant colors which rival the beauty of a
rainbow!

Please feel welcome to post introductions and photos.

Delmar Gouldians
Winnie