----- Original Message -----

From: Pascal H.

To: GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 10:03 AM

Subject: [GPA101Genetics] Re: Head Colors (Pascal)

--- In GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com, "elrozewater" <haye@c...>
wrote:
> Thank you for your lengthy answer!
> Although I'm going to take your advice and forget about the workings
> of the RH in a BH bird for now (you're right; that IS confusing), I
> think I understand the topic a little better.
>
> One last question about the YH genes, if I may.
> What is the difference (if any) in (dis)coloration of a SF versus DF
> YH?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ludo

Ludo,

SF and DF terms are more commonly used with genes that are co-dominant
or dominant rather than recessive ones. It is preferable to use
"split" for recessive genes like YH. But it is not incorrect to use SF
and DF.

A SF YH does not have a yellow head, it is in fact a red headed or a
black headed bird "split" to YH, while a DF YH is a yellow headed bird
that in case it was a male could be split to BH.
You have to know that a BH bird with YTB is also DF(also homozygous or
pure) for YH.

Pascal





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--- In GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com, "elrozewater" <haye@c...>
wrote:
> Thank you for your lengthy answer!
> Although I'm going to take your advice and forget about the workings
> of the RH in a BH bird for now (you're right; that IS confusing), I
> think I understand the topic a little better.
>
> One last question about the YH genes, if I may.
> What is the difference (if any) in (dis)coloration of a SF versus DF
> YH?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ludo

Ludo,

SF and DF terms are more commonly used with genes that are co-dominant
or dominant rather than recessive ones. It is preferable to use
"split" for recessive genes like YH. But it is not incorrect to use SF
and DF.

A SF YH does not have a yellow head, it is in fact a red headed or a
black headed bird "split" to YH, while a DF YH is a yellow headed bird
that in case it was a male could be split to BH.
You have to know that a BH bird with YTB is also DF(also homozygous or
pure) for YH.

Pascal

Thank you for your lengthy answer!
Although I'm going to take your advice and forget about the workings
of the RH in a BH bird for now (you're right; that IS confusing), I
think I understand the topic a little better.

One last question about the YH genes, if I may.
What is the difference (if any) in (dis)coloration of a SF versus DF
YH?

Thanks,

Ludo

--- In GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com, "elrozewater" <haye@c...>
wrote:
> Hello Pascal,
>
> I have a couple of questions for ya since I'm still surrounded by a
> pretty thick fog regarding this material.
>
> You wrote:
>
> ..... and that is not the case of a
> > BH bird,  because even though the BH gene is inhibiting the
> deposit of
> > astaxanthin in the head area, the RH gene is still visible and
> fully
> > active as we can see in the deposit of astaxanthin in the beak of
> such
> > birds.
>
> So does this mean that a BH bird can have the RH gene as well?
> I thought that this was impossible since this would automatically
> turn out to be a RH/BH (male)? I'm probably just not understanding
> your answer.

I was just saying that we should not say that a black headed bird is
"SPLIT" to RH.

The reason why saying this seems confusing, is that we need to
understand that RH, YH, BH genes work very differently from each other
on the Gouldian finch.
- BH gene is not a coloring gene, it only inhibits the presence of a
colored mask when present in DF on males and SF in females.
- The RH gene on the other hand, is the ability to transform pigments
from the diet into red astaxanthin to be deposited in certain areas of
the bird.
- YH is a gene that works on the RH and reduces the transformation of
red astaxanthin into an orange one.

> You also wrote:
>
> > In your answer, you have OH/RH. This is genetically impossible
> because
> > to display a recessive trait, here OH, a male has to have two OH
> > genes. Nevertheless, an OH male can be split to BH.
>
> Can you tell me a little bit more about this?
> I understood, for example, that an OH needs the RH gene to express
> the OH. Now, what I do not understand is how it is possible for a
> bird to be OH/BH: where is that RH gene?

Let me try to explain this with the relations approach:

There are two separate relations that work independently in the head
color of a Gouldian: The BH, RH relation, and the RH, YH relation.
The BH,RH only determines if the bird HAS, or HAS NOT a colored mask.
With this relation, just forget the colors and replace BH with
(uncolored mask) and RH with (colored mask).

With the second relation you can use RH and YH to determine the color
of the pigment deposited in the head and beak.

so:
The OH/BH bird is one that HAS a colored HEAD from relation 1 because
he has one BH (no color) and one RH gene (color) and RH being
dominant.. And from relation 2, it has the ability to transform
(reduce) red pigment into the orange which is seen on the beak. So RH
is turned into YH.

Another example would be a BH YTB male:
form relation 1, this bird doesn't have a colored mask and from
relation 2 he is able to transform the red in the beak (no red in the
head anymore) into orange.
To say that a BH YTB doesn't have the RH gene is wrong because this
male, mated to an OH hen will have as offspring, only OH males as well
as BH YTB females. And the reason he will have OH males is that he
carries OH in DF. And like you said earlier, OH only works over RH. So
this gene is already present in the first place. BH will only HIDE the
RH in the head but not remove the gene.

The head color genes have a very intricate relation and I have just
scratched the surface here. The BH gene only works in the head area
while RH and YH work in the head as well as the beak.

I know this seems confusing but to simplify the matter, it is better
especially for beginners to overlook the action of the RH gene while
dealing with BH birds.

Pascal H.
http://clix.to/mybirds


> Thank you for your time,
>
> Ludo

Hello Pascal,

I have a couple of questions for ya since I'm still surrounded by a
pretty thick fog regarding this material.

You wrote:

..... and that is not the case of a
> BH bird,  because even though the BH gene is inhibiting the
deposit of
> astaxanthin in the head area, the RH gene is still visible and
fully
> active as we can see in the deposit of astaxanthin in the beak of
such
> birds.

So does this mean that a BH bird can have the RH gene as well?
I thought that this was impossible since this would automatically
turn out to be a RH/BH (male)? I'm probably just not understanding
your answer.

You also wrote:

> In your answer, you have OH/RH. This is genetically impossible
because
> to display a recessive trait, here OH, a male has to have two OH
> genes. Nevertheless, an OH male can be split to BH.

Can you tell me a little bit more about this?
I understood, for example, that an OH needs the RH gene to express
the OH. Now, what I do not understand is how it is possible for a
bird to be OH/BH: where is that RH gene?

Thank you for your time,

Ludo

Sorry guys, my computer went nuts...


Pascal H.
http://clix.to/mybirds

Hi,

I am sure Aves would explain this better, but here is
my reply.

You said:
> 1-nothing can be split to BH because it is dominant

The offspring of a pure RH male and a BH female would
all be RH split to BH. Females on the other hand
cannot be split to BH, a sex-linked trait.

> 2-female cannot be split to any sex linked colors
(OH & RH)

OH is not sex-linked, therefore females can be split
to it.

> 3-females can only be split to OH (recessive)

Exactly. And some say that a black headed female with
no OH genes is split to RH, but I personally don't
approve of the term "split to RH". Split should be
used to hidden traits, and that is not the case of a
BH bird,  because even though the BH gene is
inhibiting the deposit of astaxanthin in the head
area, the RH gene is still visible and fully active as
we can see in the deposit of astaxanthin in the beak
of such birds.

In your answer, you have OH/RH. This is genetically
impossible because to display a recessive trait, here
OH, a male has to have two OH genes. Nevertheless, an
OH male can be split to BH.



Pascal H.

http;//clix.to/mybirds


--- In GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com, "linda hrab"
<lhrab@t...> wrote:
> ok reason's for coming up with these answers...
> 1-nothing can be split to BH because it is dominant


>
> are these statements correct???
>
> my answers would be
> males:
OH,RH,BH,BHYTB,OH/RH,RH/OH,BH/OH,BH/RH,BH/OH&RH
> FEMALES: OH,RH,BH,BH YTB,RH/OH,BH/OH
>
> alli
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: avesjournals
>   To: GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:31 PM
>   Subject: [GPA101Genetics] Head Colors
>
>
>   O.K. Folks,
>
>   Itâ?Ts Monday morning and time to get back to
work.
>
>   Since we already have a general idea of how the
genes found in the
>   gouldian finch work (see post 1 & 2 on this list).
>
>   Today we are going to look at the three different
head colors, as you
>   already know the gouldian finch comes in BH =Black
head (Recessive
>   Sex-linked), RH =Red head (Dominant Sex-linked)
and OH =Orange head
>   (Autosomal Recessive).
>
>   By cross breeding these three head color together,
we still get visual
>   BH, RH, and OH, yet by cross breeding all three
head colors we come up
>   with a total of 54 possible combinations in all.
In some cases
>   resulting in male birds showing one head color and
carrying the one or
>   two hidden head color, while some hens will show
one color and have
>   (only) one hidden color.
>
>   These hidden head colors are known as splits and
are normally
>   represented by the use of this symbol / so in
other words a BH/OH
>   would read as Black Head split to Orange Head.
>
>   Now that you have an idea of what the head colors
are and how to show
>   if they are pure for the head color or split for
one or two hidden
>   genes, here is what you need to do.
>
>   There are a total of 15 possible head color
combinations in the
>   gouldian finch, 9 for the males and 6 for the
hens.  What you have to
>   do is come up with a list by visual head colors
and their hidden
>   colors of the 9 male combinations and the 6 for
hens.
>
>   Note:  This is a freebie from me.  In the BH color
there is also a BH
>   YTB or in other words Black Head Yellow Tip Beak.
Both males and hens
>   can be of this type. (More on why this happens
when we get into the
>   color pigments).
>
>   Aves
>
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   GPA101Genetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of Service.


__________________________________
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Hi,

I am sure Aves would explain this better, but here is my reply.

You said:
> 1-nothing can be split to BH because it is dominant

The offspring of a pure RH male and a BH female would all be RH split
to BH. Females on the other hand cannot be split to BH, a sex-linked
trait.

> 2-female cannot be split to any sex linked colors (OH & RH)

OH is not sex-linked, therefore females can be split to it.

> 3-females can only be split to OH (recessive)

Exactly. And some say that a black headed female with no OH genes is
split to RH, but I personally don't approve of the term "split to RH".
Split should be used to hidden traits, and that is not the case of a
BH bird,  because even though the BH gene is inhibiting the deposit of
astaxanthin in the head area, the RH gene is still visible and fully
active as we can see in the deposit of astaxanthin in the beak of such
birds.

In your answer, you have OH/RH. This is genetically impossible because
to display a recessive trait, here OH, a male has to have two OH
genes. Nevertheless, an OH male can be split to BH.



Pascal H.

http;//clix.to/mybirds


--- In GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com, "linda hrab" <lhrab@t...>
wrote:
> ok reason's for coming up with these answers...
> 1-nothing can be split to BH because it is dominant


>
> are these statements correct???
>
> my answers would be
> males: OH,RH,BH,BHYTB,OH/RH,RH/OH,BH/OH,BH/RH,BH/OH&RH
> FEMALES: OH,RH,BH,BH YTB,RH/OH,BH/OH
>
> alli
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: avesjournals
>   To: GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:31 PM
>   Subject: [GPA101Genetics] Head Colors
>
>
>   O.K. Folks,
>
>   Itâ?Ts Monday morning and time to get back to work.
>
>   Since we already have a general idea of how the genes found in the
>   gouldian finch work (see post 1 & 2 on this list).
>
>   Today we are going to look at the three different head colors, as
you
>   already know the gouldian finch comes in BH =Black head (Recessive
>   Sex-linked), RH =Red head (Dominant Sex-linked) and OH =Orange
head
>   (Autosomal Recessive).
>
>   By cross breeding these three head color together, we still get
visual
>   BH, RH, and OH, yet by cross breeding all three head colors we
come up
>   with a total of 54 possible combinations in all.  In some cases
>   resulting in male birds showing one head color and carrying the
one or
>   two hidden head color, while some hens will show one color and
have
>   (only) one hidden color.
>
>   These hidden head colors are known as splits and are normally
>   represented by the use of this symbol / so in other words a BH/OH
>   would read as Black Head split to Orange Head.
>
>   Now that you have an idea of what the head colors are and how to
show
>   if they are pure for the head color or split for one or two hidden
>   genes, here is what you need to do.
>
>   There are a total of 15 possible head color combinations in the
>   gouldian finch, 9 for the males and 6 for the hens.  What you have
to
>   do is come up with a list by visual head colors and their hidden
>   colors of the 9 male combinations and the 6 for hens.
>
>   Note:  This is a freebie from me.  In the BH color there is also a
BH
>   YTB or in other words Black Head Yellow Tip Beak.  Both males and
hens
>   can be of this type. (More on why this happens when we get into
the
>   color pigments).
>
>   Aves
>
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   GPA101Genetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

Hi,

I am sure Aves would explain this better, but here is my reply.

You said:
> 1-nothing can be split to BH because it is dominant

The offspring of a pure RH male and a BH female would all be RH split
to BH. Females on the other hand cannot be split to BH, a sex-linked
trait.

> 2-female cannot be split to any sex linked colors (OH & RH)

OH is not sex-linked, therefore females can be split to it.

> 3-females can only be split to OH (recessive)

Exactly. And some say that a black headed female with no OH genes is
split to RH, but I personally don't approve of the term "split to RH".
Split should be used to hidden traits, and that is not the case of a
BH bird,  because even though the BH gene is inhibiting the deposit of
astaxanthin in the head area, the RH gene is still visible and fully
active as we can see in the deposit of astaxanthin in the beak of such
birds.

In your answer, you have OH/RH. This is genetically impossible because
to display a recessive trait, here OH, a male has to have two OH
genes. Nevertheless, an OH male can be split to BH.



Pascal H.

http;//clix.to/mybirds


--- In GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com, "linda hrab" <lhrab@t...>
wrote:
> ok reason's for coming up with these answers...
> 1-nothing can be split to BH because it is dominant


>
> are these statements correct???
>
> my answers would be
> males: OH,RH,BH,BHYTB,OH/RH,RH/OH,BH/OH,BH/RH,BH/OH&RH
> FEMALES: OH,RH,BH,BH YTB,RH/OH,BH/OH
>
> alli
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: avesjournals
>   To: GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:31 PM
>   Subject: [GPA101Genetics] Head Colors
>
>
>   O.K. Folks,
>
>   Itâ?Ts Monday morning and time to get back to work.
>
>   Since we already have a general idea of how the genes found in the
>   gouldian finch work (see post 1 & 2 on this list).
>
>   Today we are going to look at the three different head colors, as
you
>   already know the gouldian finch comes in BH =Black head (Recessive
>   Sex-linked), RH =Red head (Dominant Sex-linked) and OH =Orange
head
>   (Autosomal Recessive).
>
>   By cross breeding these three head color together, we still get
visual
>   BH, RH, and OH, yet by cross breeding all three head colors we
come up
>   with a total of 54 possible combinations in all.  In some cases
>   resulting in male birds showing one head color and carrying the
one or
>   two hidden head color, while some hens will show one color and
have
>   (only) one hidden color.
>
>   These hidden head colors are known as splits and are normally
>   represented by the use of this symbol / so in other words a BH/OH
>   would read as Black Head split to Orange Head.
>
>   Now that you have an idea of what the head colors are and how to
show
>   if they are pure for the head color or split for one or two hidden
>   genes, here is what you need to do.
>
>   There are a total of 15 possible head color combinations in the
>   gouldian finch, 9 for the males and 6 for the hens.  What you have
to
>   do is come up with a list by visual head colors and their hidden
>   colors of the 9 male combinations and the 6 for hens.
>
>   Note:  This is a freebie from me.  In the BH color there is also a
BH
>   YTB or in other words Black Head Yellow Tip Beak.  Both males and
hens
>   can be of this type. (More on why this happens when we get into
the
>   color pigments).
>
>   Aves
>
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>   GPA101Genetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

Hi Aves,
I'm not sure if I am misunderstanding what you have written so would
appreciate your clarification.

>
>   2.  Black Head - Sex linked recessive to red (no modifiers?) (Sex-Linked
> Recessive, you still get BH hens when paired to an pure OH male)

If my interpretation of "Pure OH male" (meaning not split to black head) is
correct, then you cant get BH Hens from a Pure OH Male irrespective of the
hen he is mated to, they must be either RH or OH.

>
>   3.  Orange Head - Autosomal recessive + one red headed gene (YES, with
both BH
> or OH all young come out RH)

Here again if you mate an OH to an OH you will not produce RH, you can only
produce OH (both sexes) or BH hens (depending if the cock is split)

Regards...James

----- Original Message -----

From: avesjournals

To: GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:31 PM

Subject: [GPA101Genetics] Head Colors

O.K. Folks,

It’s Monday morning and time to get back to work.

Since we already have a general idea of how the genes found in the
gouldian finch work (see post 1 & 2 on this list).

Today we are going to look at the three different head colors, as you
already know the gouldian finch comes in BH =Black head (Recessive
Sex-linked), RH =Red head (Dominant Sex-linked) and OH =Orange head
(Autosomal Recessive).

By cross breeding these three head color together, we still get visual
BH, RH, and OH, yet by cross breeding all three head colors we come up
with a total of 54 possible combinations in all.  In some cases
resulting in male birds showing one head color and carrying the one or
two hidden head color, while some hens will show one color and have
(only) one hidden color.

These hidden head colors are known as splits and are normally
represented by the use of this symbol / so in other words a BH/OH
would read as Black Head split to Orange Head.

Now that you have an idea of what the head colors are and how to show
if they are pure for the head color or split for one or two hidden
genes, here is what you need to do.

There are a total of 15 possible head color combinations in the
gouldian finch, 9 for the males and 6 for the hens.  What you have to
do is come up with a list by visual head colors and their hidden
colors of the 9 male combinations and the 6 for hens.

Note:  This is a freebie from me.  In the BH color there is also a BH
YTB or in other words Black Head Yellow Tip Beak.  Both males and hens
can be of this type. (More on why this happens when we get into the
color pigments).

Aves




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
GPA101Genetics-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Howdy Aves,

Our home work:

> There are a total of 15 possible head color combinations in the
> gouldian finch, 9 for the males and 6 for the hens.  What you have
to
> do is come up with a list by visual head colors and their hidden
> colors of the 9 male combinations and the 6 for hens.



Well, I tried to come up with all the combinations myself, but I
checked with the book "Gouldian Finches" by Mr. M. Vriends to ensure
I came up with a mildly intelligent answer.

Here we go:

Males:
1. RH
2. RH/BH
3. RH/OH
4. RH/BH AND OH
5. OH
6. OH/BH
7. BH
8. BH/OH
9. BH/YTB (thank you)

Females:
1. RH
2. RH/OH
3. OH
4. BH/OH
5. BH
6. BH/YTB

Now, Mr. Vriends does not use the term "orange", instead he uses the
term "yellow". I assume that's just semantics and that we are
talking about the same mutation.
Also, Mr. Vriends talks about "BH/BH with yellow bill". Is that the
BH/ YTB?

The reason that I needed the back-up of Mr. Vriends is that I still
have a lot of problems comprehending the role/ workings of the OH
and YTB in combination with the other genes.
For example, how can we have the combination OH? Does this mean the
bird has no RH or BH genes at all? Is it possible for a bird to lack
all sex linked genes for head coloration?

Anyway, hope the answer is close to what you were looking for.

Thank you again so much for your time,

Ludo

O.K. Folks,

It’s Monday morning and time to get back to work.

Since we already have a general idea of how the genes found in the
gouldian finch work (see post 1 & 2 on this list).

Today we are going to look at the three different head colors, as you
already know the gouldian finch comes in BH =Black head (Recessive
Sex-linked), RH =Red head (Dominant Sex-linked) and OH =Orange head
(Autosomal Recessive).

By cross breeding these three head color together, we still get visual
BH, RH, and OH, yet by cross breeding all three head colors we come up
with a total of 54 possible combinations in all.  In some cases
resulting in male birds showing one head color and carrying the one or
two hidden head color, while some hens will show one color and have
(only) one hidden color.

These hidden head colors are known as splits and are normally
represented by the use of this symbol / so in other words a BH/OH
would read as Black Head split to Orange Head.

Now that you have an idea of what the head colors are and how to show
if they are pure for the head color or split for one or two hidden
genes, here is what you need to do.

There are a total of 15 possible head color combinations in the
gouldian finch, 9 for the males and 6 for the hens.  What you have to
do is come up with a list by visual head colors and their hidden
colors of the 9 male combinations and the 6 for hens.

Note:  This is a freebie from me.  In the BH color there is also a BH
YTB or in other words Black Head Yellow Tip Beak.  Both males and hens
can be of this type. (More on why this happens when we get into the
color pigments).

Aves

Sarah,

Sorry for getting back to you so late, I put my comments in ( ) next to your
anwers.

   Here are my answers:
   1.  Red Head - Sex linked dominant over black (Dominant to both BH and OH)

   2.  Black Head - Sex linked recessive to red (no modifiers?) (Sex-Linked
Recessive, you still get BH hens when paired to an pure OH male)

   3.  Orange Head - Autosomal recessive + one red headed gene (YES, with both BH
or OH all young come out RH)

   4.  White Breasted - Autosomal recessive (YES)

   5.  Purple Breasted - Autosomal dominant (Dominant, Autosomal means that the
PB must come from parents)

   6.  Blue Back - Autosomal recessive (YES)

   7.  Yellow Body -Sex linked dominant to Green body and blue body.  In males
though this can be co-dominant as in a Dilute and a Pastel. (YES, However it is
reconiced as CO-Dominant only in a male if the male turn out to be (SF) yellow
(has only one yellow gene) and in a hen it is just Dominant.  However when the
hen passes it to her young only the sons get the gene and this is where the
Co-Dominant trem comes in.)

Aves

----- Original Message -----

From: Gordon E Mitchell

To: GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 7:05 PM

Subject: [GPA101Genetics] Re: Fw: [GPA101911] Small genetics Glossary of terms

Thanks Sarah,I did not even know that,it will now enable me to
understand some of the interchange,mitch
> From: Sarah McCann
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:33 PM
> Subject: [GPA101911] Small genetics Glossary of terms

> Genotype: Genetic info of the individual
> Phenotype: Appearance "   "    "
> Autosomal: Characteristics inherited on gene pairs
> Sex linked: Those characteristics inherited on the male sex
chromosome
> Loci (plural) / Locus (single): a specific location of a trait on
the chromosome (genes pairs have matching loci, each carries a
single gene)
> Recessive: Factors expressed in the appearance only when present
on both loci
> Dominant:    "            "            "   "          "    when
present only on one locus or gene pair
> Split: Abbreviate "/" Synonymous with Heterozygous: the presence
of two dissimilar genes at the two loci of a gene pair.
> SF: Single factor.  Only a single gene for a trait is present. 
Used interchangeably with "heterozygous".
> DF: Double factor.  Two genes for the trait are present.  Used
interchangeably with "homozygous"
>
> It might also help some to understand that male birds carry two
sex chromosomes and the female birds carry only one.  Like our "X"
chromosome.  Male Gouldians have two X sites and hens only have one
X site. 
    
>     
>
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Thanks Sarah,I did not even know that,it will now enable me to
understand some of the interchange,mitch
> From: Sarah McCann
> Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 10:33 PM
> Subject: [GPA101911] Small genetics Glossary of terms

> Genotype: Genetic info of the individual
> Phenotype: Appearance "   "    "
> Autosomal: Characteristics inherited on gene pairs
> Sex linked: Those characteristics inherited on the male sex
chromosome
> Loci (plural) / Locus (single): a specific location of a trait on
the chromosome (genes pairs have matching loci, each carries a
single gene)
> Recessive: Factors expressed in the appearance only when present
on both loci
> Dominant:    "            "            "   "          "    when
present only on one locus or gene pair
> Split: Abbreviate "/" Synonymous with Heterozygous: the presence
of two dissimilar genes at the two loci of a gene pair.
> SF: Single factor.  Only a single gene for a trait is present.
Used interchangeably with "heterozygous".
> DF: Double factor.  Two genes for the trait are present.  Used
interchangeably with "homozygous"
>
> It might also help some to understand that male birds carry two
sex chromosomes and the female birds carry only one.  Like our "X"
chromosome.  Male Gouldians have two X sites and hens only have one
X site.

>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> GPA101911-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

Aves,

I'm afraid I'm not clear on the color orange either......

I've learned through one of your answers that the RH gene needs to
be present for a OH color to be presented.
Please tell me how that works, because that does not make sense to
me.
The problem I'm having with this situation is that the RH gene is
sex-linked dominant, and the OH gene is autosomal recessive.
How would the OH gene ever "win" from the RH gene?
Would we get an OH bird only if the bird is DF OH (and also has the
RH gene)?
What about if the bird is SF OH (with the RH gene) what would happen?

Thanks!

Ludo

Hello Aves,

I have noticed I am having a bit of trouble with the color yellow
today....

My first question is about the yellow body co-dominance.
As I understand it, the "normal" (green) back of the Gouldian is
produced by the combination yellow and (structural) blue  (yellow
and blue make green).
What would happen if we were to put a yellow backed male with a
normal (green backed) female?
I understand that the female offspring would be either green or
yellow, as they cannot be split for sex linked genes, but what would
happen to the male offspring??
Would we get a "more yellow kinda greenish" male bird?
Is that what they call dilute?

Ok, second question: maybe I'm ahead of the lessons, but here it
goes anyway.
We are talking about head, breast, and body/ back colors.
However, I saw in your last email you were talking about a colored
tip of the beak as well!
How many colors can this bird handle, anyway?     :-)
Would you explain this coloring of the beak a little?

Thanks so much for your time,

Ludo de la Haye
Maryland

Hans,

You wrote,

> I see you made some statements I don't agree with.
> Red head is sex linked, no not true, RH is the wildtype
> Purple breast dominant. same thing PB is the wildtype.


Yes, RH is now recognized as the TRUE wildtype head color found in the wild, for
the longest time it was believed that BH was only because of the larger number
of BH hens found in the wild.  But this has been corrected.

Now what makes RH Sex-linked?

Well, when a PURE RH hen is paired to a BH male, all the sons will be RH/BH and
all the daughter will be BH.  The same applies when the male is BH/OH or BH YTB,
while some of the sons will be RH/BH and /OH, others will be RH/OH, yet none of
the daughters will be RH.

If it were not Sex-linked then the mother would pass the gene on to her daughter
no matter what head color her mate was.  This in turn would make the gene for RH
Dominant.  However, as in ALL sex-linked gene she passes it to her sons only.

It is only when a RH hen is paired to a visual OH or RH male that RH hens are
produced.  The explanation for this will be shared in future post as the list
learns more about the gouldian genetics.

Good question.

Aves

Sarah,

I'm sorry to say, but I did not get or see a response from you.  Did you post it
to the list?

Aves

Aves, Could you explain to me where I was wrong?  The differences in
my answers and your answers are slight and as I read it not really
different.  So that I can understand, please explain?  Thanks!

Also you did not comment on the Glossary of terms - were they
incorrect?

Thanks again for doing this!
Sarah

-- In GPA101Genetics@yahoogroups.com, "Aves" <aves@a...> wrote:
> Ok, Folks.
>
> Here are the answers to yesterdays post and only one persons, Alli
got them all
> correct.
>
> First Question,
>
> Below is a small list of colors found on the gouldian finch and ALL
> are Sex-linked genes, all you have to do is tell me bases on the
> information above what type of Sex-linked genes they are.
>
> 1. Red Head = Dominant Sex-linked
>
> 2. Yellow Body = Co-Dominant Sex-linked
>
> 3. Black Head = Recessive Sex-linked
>
>
> The second Question,
>
> Below I have a small list of colors or mutations; all you have to
do
> is tell me based on the information provided above, which type of
gene
> it is.
>
> 1.  Red Head = Dominant Sex-linked
>
> 2.  Black Head =Recessive Sex-linked
>
> 3.  Orange Head = Autosomal Recessive or Recessive (chose which
you want to use)
>
> 4.  White Breasted = Autosomal Recessive or Recessive (chose which
you want to
> use)
>
> 5.  Purple Breasted = Dominant (also known as the wild type)
>
> 6.  Blue Back = Autosomal Recessive or Recessive (chose which you
want to use)
>
> 7.  Yellow Body = Co-Dominant Sex-linked
>
> Some of these are also Sex-linked, yet they are also part of this
> grouping.
>
> Aves

Ok, Folks.

Here are the answers to yesterdays post and only one persons, Alli got them all
correct.

First Question,

Below is a small list of colors found on the gouldian finch and ALL
are Sex-linked genes, all you have to do is tell me bases on the
information above what type of Sex-linked genes they are.

1. Red Head = Dominant Sex-linked

2. Yellow Body = Co-Dominant Sex-linked

3. Black Head = Recessive Sex-linked


The second Question,

Below I have a small list of colors or mutations; all you have to do
is tell me based on the information provided above, which type of gene
it is.

1.  Red Head = Dominant Sex-linked

2.  Black Head =Recessive Sex-linked

3.  Orange Head = Autosomal Recessive or Recessive (chose which you want to use)

4.  White Breasted = Autosomal Recessive or Recessive (chose which you want to
use)

5.  Purple Breasted = Dominant (also known as the wild type)

6.  Blue Back = Autosomal Recessive or Recessive (chose which you want to use)

7.  Yellow Body = Co-Dominant Sex-linked

Some of these are also Sex-linked, yet they are also part of this
grouping.

Aves

Hi GPA101Genetics,

Welcome to our new E-Group!!  I see that Daniel Wildemeersch has
already joined and there are presently 9 members.  After eating
lunch, I will transfer some copies of  recent posts concerning
Gouldian genetics to give us a base of information.  I am delighted
to have 32 MB which can be devoted and preserved about Gouldian
genetics. I am hoping that our GPA101911 members, including Abery
Chavez, will welcome and cooperate with this new direction.  Please
feel welcome to post questions and comments, store photos and place
articles in the Files.

Regards,
Winnie

Ok, let's keep going with Lesson number one.

The meaning of the terms:

Now let's look at, Recessive, Autosomal Recessive, Dominant and
Co-Dominant.

Recessive and Autosomal Recessive-These two are the same thing, it all
depends on who and how they are saying it.  In this case it is a gene
that requires that BOTH parents carry it in a split manner or be of
the color or mutation in order for the young to show the color or
mutation.

1.  If either the father or mother is only split for the recessive
gene then ALL of the young will come out looking normal in color,
however half of the (sons & daughter) will be split for the color or
mutation.

2.  If both parents are split for the recessive gene, then 25% of the
young will be of the recessive gene, 50% will be split for the
recessive gene and 25% will be normal in color.  This is for both sons
and daughters.

3.  If only one of the parents is split for the recessive gene then
all the young will be normal in color, however, 50% of the young will
be split for the recessive gene and the other 50% will be normal in
color.

4.  If both parents are of the recessive gene (show the recessive
color) then 100% of the young will also be of the recessive color.

Dominant-As its name states it is Dominant or in other works, no
matter a dominant gene will show its color or mutation at all times no
matter what color it is paired to.

Co-Dominant-As already mentioned in the Co-Dominant Sex-linked post,
this gene is Co-Dominant or in other words it can blend or mix with a
Dominant or a Co-Dominant.  In many cases the combination of the two
genes would make the color appear diluted.

Ok, now for the question.

Below I have a small list of colors or mutations; all you have to do
is tell me based on the information provided above, which type of gene
it is.

1.  Red Head

2.  Black Head

3.  Orange Head

4.  White Breasted

5.  Purple Breasted

6.  Blue Back

7.  Yellow Body

Some of these are also Sex-linked, yet they are also part of this
grouping.

Aves

Ok Folks here we go with lesson number one,

I want to let everyone know that what I am writing in these
explanations are only gouldian related and I will NOT be using other
birds in my examples.

The meaning of the terms:

When folks talk about the gouldian finch many times one will hear the
following terms used, Sex-linked, Recessive Sex-linked, Co-dominant
Sex-linked, Dominant Sex-linked, Recessive, Autosomal Recessive,
Dominant, and Co-Dominant.  For those individuals that are not
familiar with these terms, the conversation may seen over whelming and
very confusing.  So for our first lesson we will start off with what
the terms mean.  In this case, the Sex-linked gene.

Sex-linked - Is a term used to describe how a gene is passed on to the
young, normally the gene is passed on from one parent to the young of
the opposite sex and if the young is a hen, the color or mutation will
be displayed.  If the young is a male, then depending on the color or
mutation and if the gene is Recessive Sex-linked, Dominant Sex-linked
or Co-Dominant Sex-linked, the bird may only carry the gene and not
show it, show it mixed in with another or display it in full color.
(More explanations will be found below).

Recessive Sex-linked - In this case the father and mother can have the
gene and with a Recessive Sex-linked gene the following will happen.

1.  If the father is of the full color or mutation then all his sons
will be split for the mutation and all his daughters will display the
color or mutation.  If he is only split for the color or mutation then
half his sons will be split for the color or mutation and half his
daughters will display the color or mutation and the other half will
be normal in color.

2.  If the mother is of the color or mutation then all her sons will
be split for the color or the mutation and all her daughters will be
normal color.

3.  If the father is split for the color or mutation and the mother is
of the color or mutation then half the sons will be of the color or
mutation and the other half will be split for it.  Half the daughter
will also be of the full color or mutation and the other half will be
normal in color.  (Hens CAN NOT be split for a Sex-linked gene)

4.  If both parents are of the color or mutation then ALL the young
will also be of the color or mutation.


Co-Dominant Sex-linked-In this case we have a gene that is Dominant
and Sex-linked and at the same time can blend or mix together with
another Co-Dominant or Dominant gene.  (None of the birds can be split
for a Co-Dominant gene)

1.  If the father is of the Co-Dominant gene (has two genes for it),
all the sons will display it in full or blended with another color
(diluted) and all the daughters will be of the Co-Dominant gene.

2.  If the mother is of the Co-Dominant gene then all the sons will
display it in full or blended with another color (diluted) and all the
daughters will be normal.

3.  If the father only has one gene for the Co-Dominant color and the
mother has none, then half the sons will display the color in full or
blended and half the daughters will display it in full, while the rest
of the young will be normal in color.

4.  If both parents are of the Co-Dominant gene, then 100% of the
young will be of the Co-Dominant color.

Dominant Sex-linked-In this case as the name states, the gene is 100%
Dominant as well as Sex-linked.  In other words the father can pass
the gene on to ALL his young, while the mother can only pass the gene
on to her sons.  This is what makes this gene different from a regular
Dominant gene and a Co-Dominant gene.

Ok, now I have one questions for the volunteers.

Below is a small list of colors found on the gouldian finch and ALL
are Sex-linked genes, all you have to do is tell me bases on the
information above what type of Sex-linked genes they are.

1. Red Head

2. Yellow Body

3. Black Head

Aves

Ok all you NEW folks just starting out with gouldians, I have a
proposal for you ALL.

I am willing to help you ALL out by sharing information once, twice,
three times a week (not a Lady) about the genetics of the gouldian
finch and in a manner that would be fun for you while you learn.  This
does not mean that those of you who are familiar with the gouldian
finch and its genetics can not take part, only that the information
will start off with the basics and get advance as the group gets the
understanding of them.

All I ask is that at least five of the new people on this list be
willing to take part in the discussions and participate with
responses.  As for folks like, Ms. Gail, Ms. Winnie, Garrie Landry,
James Watson and Wick Goss, all I ask you guys is to hold back with an
answer and allow the other members on this list to answer.  What I
would from you guys, if you want to, is also ask questions to the
group.

So now all I need is at least four more folks to e-mail back willing
to participate since I already know that Joni will be the first to
volunteer since I am the one that volunteered her.

Aves