---

From: geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com [mailto:geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nathan Sidebottom
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:14 PM
To: geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [geneticsforpigeons] Breeding Release Duvs - Small Size

where are you located at Wynn,  i am really intrieged by your project and would like to work on something simmilar,  but at this time i dont have the right genetic material to work with, 

i dont know if you sell any of your birds or not but if you did and shipping wasnt a problem i would like to get a couple pair to start working with, 

i like the idea of not usieng Homers for the release due to the very items of concern you hae outlined in your messages and on your site,  like the fact that they dont stay in the viewing area for very long, 

From time to time, I'll post a message about breeding a new kind of
pigeon called a Release Duv.  This message is about breeding for small
size.  In the last message I described flying skill and the kind of test
I developed for scoring my birds circling ability.

Breeding is about selection.  Selection is about defining a test that
distinguishes one bird from another in an objective way.  If you've read
and understood my previous messages, than you understand why we don't
want to select from the second generation (F1), but reserve our
judgments until the third generation (F2).

So size selection is simple, right?  Just choose the smallest?
Unfortunately, small pigeons are unusually difficult to raise.  Some
small breeds have tightly packed feathers that interfere with mating.
Many small breeds have trouble sitting their own eggs.  Some small
breeds have trouble emerging from their shells.  Some small breeds are
unable to feed their own youngsters.  Some small breeds have eye
problems.  And those are only the problems that I know about.

As many challenges as the small breeds give us, I'm thankful the pigeon
fancy has given us centuries of breeders willing to solve the mysteries
of how to keep these breeds alive, and a diverse set of birds to choose
from.  If you become interested in a small breed, spend some time with
an expert of that breed.

So, if you still want to breed with a small pigeon, it's not enough to
simply select the small one.  You need to breed for multiple traits
simultaneously.  Your goal is to introduce new good traits into your
strain while avoiding the introduction of new bad traits, and
simultaneously maintaining the good traits that define your core strain.


PRIMING THE OUTCROSS

Ok, so here's where I lie to myself.  I know that technically speaking,
an outcross is an outcross.  But in my mind, I often think of the
first-stage outcross project as "priming the outcross" because I select
differently.  In other words, I'm not really trying to get a final
result from the outcross, but rather prepare it for the "real" outcross
project to come later.  A selected member of the F2 generation becomes
the candidate for the "real" (stage-two) outcross.

In the first-stage outcross project, I'm primarily selecting for the
good traits of the new breed, and I pretty much ignore any good traits
from my core family that may show up.  In the case of small breeds, I
use a "fertility test" which I'll describe in a moment.

We get two major benefits from priming the outcross.  First of all,
we'll likely eliminate, or at least greatly reduce many of the bad
traits by selecting good specimens from the first-stage F2 generation.
Second, the birds we've selected will already carry genes from our core
strain when we begin the "real" outcross project.  At that point it
becomes much more likely for good recessives from our core strain to
express in the second-stage outcross project so we can hopefully
maintain the good traits of our core strain.  In other words, in the
second-stage outcross project, I can begin selecting for the good traits
of my core strain.

As you make more progress developing your own Release Duv, you may
discover that additional stages of outcrossing will be necessary to keep
all the good traits of your core family.

FERTILITY TEST

I also lie to myself about my "fertility test" because I'm not
necessarily judging fertility.  What I do is simply keep track of how
many youngsters a pair is able to hatch and raise on their own.  It
doesn't really matter to me whether failure was due to fertility, mating
problems, sitting problems, hatching problems, or feeding problems.  As
soon as I have to step in to solve the problem for them, those
youngsters are no longer counted as successful offspring.

"Hatching and raising" is a key objective test for small breeds.  For a
test to be scored, it must be taken.  Therefore, I very strongly warn
you against using foster parents for either eggs or babies if your goal
is to move their genes into your core strain of birds.  By the F2
generation of your first-stage outcross project, they should prove their
ability to breed, hatch, and raise youngsters.

Obviously, some small strains will require you to use foster parents at
the first generation (P1).  However, by the third generation (F2) of the
first-stage outcross project, it becomes important to use the fertility
test.  Otherwise, find a different breed for your outcross.

HOMING TEST

Also, if you're breeding with small pigeons, you already know most of
them are tumblers rather than homers.  But don't worry.  Many "tumblers"
aren't rollers, but rather they're excellent highflyers, having
excellent endurance traits.  In any event, you'll want to select for
homing skills.

BONEHEADED BREEDING

It's easy to get your heart set on an outcross project.  I very strongly
warn you not to get attached to it.  You must be willing to call a
project a failure and move on, or else you're in danger of moving your
core strain backwards rather than forward.

Obviously, with enough stages of outcrossing, you can avoid moving any
bad trait into your core strain.  But consider how much more progress
you could make if you invested the same time and lodging capacity to a
different project.

BENEFITS

Many people want a smaller Release Duv because they're cute and
attractive, but small breeds give us other benefits too.  Small pigeons
are much easier for everyone to handle, particularly when friends and
family members are used as part of a release.

Small pigeons allow smaller release baskets to be used.  They're easier
to transport and manage.  They're advantageous for your photographer and
wedding couples.

A short distance sprinter is bigger and more muscled.  A long-distance
racer is smaller, just as tipplers, and other endurance breeds are
smaller.  I'm convinced that through breeding and testing, our Release
Duvs, while they may not be fast, can have more stamina and be better
long-distance homers than racing pigeons.  Their odds of coming home
safe will be improved whether we get surprised by weather, mishandling,
or bad luck.  Some of the small breeds can help us reach our goal of
creating a great Release Duv.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/ - A Group for Release Duvs
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PigeonsNW/ - A group for Northwest Flyers
and Fanciers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PerformanceBreeds/ - A group for Flyers
http://ceremonydove.com/

NWDRS plans to support breeding projects...

-----Original Message-----
From: Wynn Smith
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 8:25 AM
To: 'Lee Gilley (leeswhitebirds@...)'
Cc: NWDRS@yahoogroups.com; 'kagewann@...'
Subject: Goals for NWDRS

Lee Gilley,

I enjoyed our talk on the phone.  As you requested, I've written down my
ideas.  I wish to join a group of people who understand our real goal is
to make people happy.  I'm excited to see the list of people going to
Branson because I've spoken with or exchanged email with many of them,
and I know them to be good people who understand the goal.

I want to persuade the NWDRS to pursue the goals we discussed.  We need
good marketing to educate our customers and other dove wranglers.

Marketing isn't sales.  Marketing is education.  We want to
differentiate ourselves from two extremes.  At one extreme, we want to
differentiate ourselves from the ring-neck dove that animal welfare
activists use, unfairly, to persuade people from using our service.  At
the other extreme, we want to differentiate ourselves from the typical
"pigeon" that people consider unattractive.

I've been using the term "Release Duv" because it can help differentiate
us from the two extremes.  It will help our customers educate others in
their family, and help them to maintain their resolve for a White Dove
release when someone in the family objects based on animal welfare
issues.  It also helps us educate people on the difference between our
birds and a typical "pigeon".

I believe the white dove release segment has been neglected by the NPA
and AU, and that leaves an opportunity for NWDRS.  The NWDRS is
different.  I believe most of our members understand our goal is to make
people happy.  Please don't underestimate how important and how powerful
that idea can become.

I also believe we can breed birds that are better for ceremonial
release.  Wonder if we bred for traits such as tameness, small size,
cute and dove-like eyes and head, long-distance stamina, cooing,
fertility, strong homing skills but without the homing drive that stops
them from circling.

Our birds can look beautiful, fly beautifully, and return safely home.
We can breed for many good traits if we simply allow ourselves to judge
and select what's best for ceremonial release rather than selecting for
how quickly a pigeon darts away home.  Over the long-term, we will serve
our customers better and ourselves better if we allow a little distance
between us and the racing world.

It's doubtful whether I can join you in Branson.  I hope your meeting
will prove to be the first of many great gatherings in the white bird
release world.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
1526 17th St.
Oregon City,  OR  97045

non-homers?


-----Original Message-----
From: Wynn Smith
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 3:28 PM
To: 'WDRS@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [WDRS] Re: racing homers & non-homers

Helen

I've been selecting for homing skills, and so my birds are homers that
return to the loft.  I believe our Release Duvs can become better homers
than the racing pigeons if we test and select for homing skills.  Some
of the racing guys think they're getting more smash races now because
they select for speed rather than homing skills.  They think the racing
pigeons are slowly losing some of their homing abilities.

However, I've spoken to some Release Duv folks who are suggesting a
pigeon be developed that isn't a homer and returns to a portable trailer
or car top loft.  The Tippler and Roller people often train to portable
lofts, and I always thought that would be fun to take on vacation.

PRO:  I would love to hear that someone started a breeding project for a
non-homing Release Duv.  It could become quite valuable if the Animal
Rights Whackos take-over during the upcoming bird-flu advancement.  You
wouldn't be in danger of accusations that your birds crossed dangerous
territory if the birds never crossed any territory.  We could all
benefit if someone develops such a bird and gives us that choice.  I'd
buy some just to take on vacation with me.

CON:  It can take a long time to get the birds down from a release.
When the roller guys get a hawk fly-by during their contests, a kit
might stay out the rest of the day.

Nevertheless, this is another example of progress that could be made in
Release Duv breeding if we allow ourselves to quit selecting for how
quickly a pigeon darts away home.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496



-----Original Message-----
From: WDRS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:WDRS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of HH
Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 1:52 PM
To: WDRS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [WDRS] Re: racing homers


wynndsmith wrote:
> ....
>     http://ceremonydove.com/wynnsbirds.htm
>
> I can't take much credit for how they look.  My core family has
> mostly been selected for the circling trait.
...

thanks

i like your idea.   i, too, think our homers (at least mine) are too big

to easily handle at a release.  i had 4 kids open 4 heart shaped baskets

releasing 10 birds simultaneously last saturday.  the escape flight  was

so strong, loud, and sudden, that one kid screamed.

it did make for a neat effect for those a bit further away from the
baskets...

in your vision, will these birds be trained to return to a box, or a
small trailer?
or do you imagine these will return home like the homers?

helen
NE Iowa




To access our "Members State Directory" for referals go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WDRS/database

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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WDRS/files/

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To unsubscribe from this group please send a BLANK EMAIL to:
WDRS-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Yahoo! Groups Links

My B family

-----Original Message-----
From: Wynn Smith
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 7:45 AM
To: 'geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: Re: good science! - small white

Hi Will,

I got a pure white in the F1 generation!  I didn't do any study on the
hickory.  But hickory clearly showed up in the F1 generation too.  It
will likely take more than one outcross to merge their genes with my
others.  I must say, of all the small breeds, I really really like that
cute round head.  The white one is a cutey and is now feeding his first
offspring.  At F1, the eyes look much more proportioned.  It'll be
interesting to see how the F2s turn out.  I'll be flying those.

The original pair now have a happy home with a young girl from the local
fancier's club.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/ - A Group for Release Duvs
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PigeonsNW/ - A group for Northwest Flyers
and Fanciers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PerformanceBreeds/ - A group for Flyers
http://ceremonydove.com/


> -----Original Message-----
> From: geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of oneredeft
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 5:46 AM
> To: geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [geneticsforpigeons] Re: Help Stop the Attack on
> good science!
>
> Wynn,
>
> Will
>
> P.S.  Have you blended those tiny little tumblers I sent you last
> year into your release bird project?  Just wondering how it went and
> if anything interesting popped up.

Hummm on the E-mail?,but yeah im not just interested in traing
methods for just the Dove release business.And yeah i knew you did
mostly single tosses.Don't you have a few Tripplers to Wynn?.But
homing abilites do interest me of course.I was able to find where i
can buy the Military Manual i told you about. Martin from Showtek
was nice enough to talk to me some.Well hope you and your had a good
Easter.

--- In ReleaseDuvs@yahoogroups.com, "Wynn Smith" <wds.0513@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> No, I didn't see it.  I searched all my inboxes and the ReleaseDuv
> forum, but I couldn't find a message addressed from you to me.
>
> I don't do a lot of training.  I'm still very focused on making
breeding
> selections and so my methods probably aren't the best for people
who
> want to do professional white dove releases.  If I'm not doing a
release
> for a customer, then I'm either single tossing to test homing
skill, or
> I'm releasing small kits to score them in a Flyoff.
>
> My training tosses are single tosses.  I usually take 20 or 30
birds and
> release each one a little farther than the one before.   This
method has
> proven extremely valuable when testing a new outcross for the first
> time.  It has allowed my duvs to maintain good homing skills when
> outcrossing to breeds that weren't supposed to be good homers.
>
>
> -Wynn Smith
> (503)650-9496
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/ - A Group for Release
Duvs
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PigeonsNW/ - Northwest Flyers and
Fanciers
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PerformanceBreeds/ - A group for
Flyers
> http://ceremonydove.com/
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ReleaseDuvs@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:ReleaseDuvs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michae Sherbert
> > Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 10:16 PM
> > To: ReleaseDuvs@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [ReleaseDuvs] Hey Wynn
> >
> > Michael Here from Nebraska.I was just wondering if my last E-
mail i
> > sent was recieved by you ? It dealt with your training
methods.As
> > always it good to hear from you!...Michael.P.S. Happy Easter to
you &
> > yours.!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Hi Michael,

No, I didn't see it.  I searched all my inboxes and the ReleaseDuv
forum, but I couldn't find a message addressed from you to me.

I don't do a lot of training.  I'm still very focused on making breeding
selections and so my methods probably aren't the best for people who
want to do professional white dove releases.  If I'm not doing a release
for a customer, then I'm either single tossing to test homing skill, or
I'm releasing small kits to score them in a Flyoff.

My training tosses are single tosses.  I usually take 20 or 30 birds and
release each one a little farther than the one before.   This method has
proven extremely valuable when testing a new outcross for the first
time.  It has allowed my duvs to maintain good homing skills when
outcrossing to breeds that weren't supposed to be good homers.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/ - A Group for Release Duvs
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PigeonsNW/ - Northwest Flyers and Fanciers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PerformanceBreeds/ - A group for Flyers
http://ceremonydove.com/



> -----Original Message-----
> From: ReleaseDuvs@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:ReleaseDuvs@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michae Sherbert
> Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 10:16 PM
> To: ReleaseDuvs@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ReleaseDuvs] Hey Wynn
>
> Michael Here from Nebraska.I was just wondering if my last E-mail i
> sent was recieved by you ? It dealt with your training methods.As
> always it good to hear from you!...Michael.P.S. Happy Easter to you &
> yours.!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Michael Here from Nebraska.I was just wondering if my last E-mail i
sent was recieved by you ? It dealt with your training methods.As
always it good to hear from you!...Michael.P.S. Happy Easter to you &
yours.!!

Anyone near Sheboygan WI, Let me know. I buy, sale, and trade pigeon
from feral pigeons, to fancy and fliers. email me privately. Thanks.

Vong
208-757-0057
Pigeoto500@...

---

From: white_homers_paradise@yahoogroups.com [mailto:white_homers_paradise@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pigeonradio@...
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2006 6:52 PM
To: white_homers_paradise@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [white_homers_paradise] Re: White Pigeon Forums

In a message dated 4/3/2006 6:08:04 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, pml@... writes:

http://ceremonydove.com/wynnsbirds.htm

Wayne

Just some food for thought . You keep saying the your white doves circle more before going home Right ?

Have you ever considered the fact that your birds are  Losing their  homing ability a little at a time !!

That would be my guess for the reason they take longer to orientate before going in the direction of home .

At some point as you play around with your breeding they may lose the ability to Orient all together and at that point you will have less then a stupid barn pigeon (meaning even a barn pigeon can home form 25-50 miles and sometimes 100 miles )

 

Wes Askins

www.askinsfamilylofts.com

www.pigeonradio.com

I posted this in the white_homers_paradise forum...

--- In white_homers_paradise@yahoogroups.com, "wynndsmith" <pml@...>
wrote:

Sometimes I get a little too "vocal" about my opinions.  I've
written about many characteristics that will make our release birds
different from racing pigeons, because those characteristics would
be good to see in a new breed.

But I worry that people might be mislead about how much progress
I've made.  The truth is I've been very focused on breeding for
flying skills.  I'll start with the good news.  Along the way I've
worked a bit on fertility issues.  I've selected for tameness from
time to time.  My birds are a bit smaller due to some of the radical
outcrosses I've made.  All my birds are single tossed and tested for
homing ability.  I've got some projects that might help with show
quality, but we'll have to wait and see if that works out.

But the downside is I need to work on making them white again.  I
haven't made much progress on the beauty characteristics.  My birds
might be tamer than some of the breeds I've outcrossed to, but I
can't claim they're any tamer than racing pigeons.  I haven't done
much testing for stamina, although I have hope due to some of my
successful outcrosses.  I believe my birds will be more fertile than
other people's small breeds, but they still might have more trouble
raising youngsters compared to racing pigeons.

I keep writing about breeding because it would be good if a large
group of us specialized in various characteristics and then traded
birds from time to time.

Here is a list of characteristics that I'll be writing about in the
future, many of which I haven't worked on at all.

Size - I'd like to see a very small homer developed.
Beauty - our release birds should be attractive to non-pigeon people.
vocalization - the birds should be as soothing as doves on display.
homing - our birds should be better homers than racing pigeons.
stamina - our birds should fly longer distances than racing pigeons.
fertility - they should consistently hatch and rear youngsters.
tameness - they shouldn't be flighty, but tame by nature.
white - release birds are white!
flying skill - even the old birds should circle after a release.

As long as our birds are selected for speed, we'll fail to make
progress on these characteristics.  To make progress, we need to
test and select for the characteristics we want our release birds to
have.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/ - A Group for Release Duvs
http://pigeonsnw.com/ - A group for Northwest Flyers and Fanciers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PerformanceBreeds/ - A group for Flyers
http://ceremonydove.com/


--- In white_homers_paradise@yahoogroups.com, "Michae Sherbert"
<mystae3@> wrote:
>
>  Well Wynn you are welcomed here,
> And i think your Release Duv forum is a good place to invite
> everyone too to read and see your direction and work.As well as
> sharing your knowledge with this group or any and all groups that
> are interested.I know iam and Ive expressed that and i for one
would
> be interested in your birds and seeing,working and reaching for
that
> bird that is smaller, more beautiful, and far better in
> skydancing,while continuing to have the strength and the very best
> homing abilities. I think showing results are important to keep
> folks interested,but i realize it dose take some time for those to
> show forth.I think other are critical because the simply dont
> understand, and carry preconcieved ideal even to some of the
> standard that they have made and have been the prevailing
standards
> that may not even been part of the oringinal breed of the bird in
> the first place,and the other thing nature in its self is dynamic
> and alway changeing and developing even within those thing that
also
> may remain consistant within a breed.In spite of the size of the
> bird,and avoidence of Hawk attacks and so forth are survivor
skills
> that all birds must learn,and i dont't think it has to much with
> strength and speed so much,but a skill that must be learned, which
> by all that you have told me isnts the problem anyway,because your
> birds are just as quick and fast and with the other traits being
> breed in the cross breeding there darting and manovering abilites
> are if anything being inproved.It just really amazes me that these
> birds carry generation and thousands of traits which have come
> through there breeding.But anyway i really do think your years of
> work can only help us all in understanding and developing on going
> better traits.So Thanks again...Michael.
>

I posted this in the white_homers_paradise forum...

--- In white_homers_paradise@yahoogroups.com, "wynndsmith" <pml@...>
wrote:

Hi Michael,

I enjoyed our conversation too.  I'm glad to see you here.  That's a
good sign for the AWDRA!

After re-reading the message I wrote, it sounded kind of whiny!
sheesh.  If I could say it another way; I like seeing people pursue
a
goal, and so I'm in favor of all the various pigeon groups.  In
addition to those groups, I'm hoping to find a group or form a group
that embraces my goals to create a breed that both looks beautiful
and
flies beautiful.

I'm glad to see the AWDRA promote bird welfare.  We have to take
care
of our birds.  Some of the old timers told me they believe their
racing clubs are experiencing more smash races these days because
there is so much focus on selecting for racing speed rather than
homing ability.

We could do well to make sure homing skills are tested and improved
in
our release birds.  We can also give our birds the endurance to fly
longer distances when the weather delivers a bad surprise.  Fifty
years ago, before the racing clubs put so much focus on shorter
sprints, it was common to find birds that came from 1000 mile
families.  Many non-homer breeds, such as the tippler, are natural
marathon flyers.

By testing and breeding for distance, we can protect future
generations of our birds by giving them the endurance they need to
fly
home in all kinds of situations.  To say it another way, we create
weaker birds and threaten future generations when we use weaker
birds
to breed with.  Just as the racers are now losing birds at 300 miles
when conditions are less than optimal, we could begin losing birds
at
fifty miles when conditions surprise us.

I don't have any photos available yet.  But honestly, my birds just
look like ordinary pigeons.  The core family is a bit smaller than a
typical racing pigeon because of some of the outcrosses in their
pedigree.  But even a photo wouldn't reveal that.

After reading some of the messages in this forum, I'm happy to have
found a friendly group!  Thanks for the welcome.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/ - A Group for Release Duvs
http://pigeonsnw.com/ - A group for Northwest Flyers and Fanciers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PerformanceBreeds/ - A group for Flyers
http://ceremonydove.com


--- In white_homers_paradise@yahoogroups.com, "Michae Sherbert"
<mystae3@> wrote:
>
>  Welcome Wynn,
>
> Its great to see you among us even though there are not Many us
> yet.It was very good to talk to you last week on the phone.So i
> think you know where i stand on your reseach and development.I do
> think it would be wonderful to see pic of your birds now,even
though
> the ideal is yet not a complete reality.Yet im sure the progress
is
> noticiable.But welcome...Michael ( Nebraska) Looking to hear from
> you.
>

--- End forwarded message ---

Here is my collection of white pigeon forums.  I'd be glad to hear of
others that I can add to the list...

  http://ceremonydove.com/Websites.htm#Forums

---

From: LYNX [mailto:lynxabel@...]
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 2:39 AM
To: Wynn Smith
Subject: Breeding for characteristics.

Wynn:

          I am very interested in your initial article on breeding for show flying.

Getting birds to perform and then still return home. Speed on being a factor.

 

I have been trying to work on the display birds used during weddings. I have

some Indian Fantails and my niche has been using Trumpeters in display

cages during weddings. I did this initially with my son's wedding with a

couple pairs of Arabian and Altenberg trumpeters. They trommeled softly

at the appropriate time and have been a big hit when add to weddings. With

the Indian Fantails And white racing homers. I initially used ring neck doves.

As I have had those for over twelves years before I got the white racing

homers 5 years ago and this year I am planning to race for the first time.

           My question deals is breeding for Trumpeters that have good vocalization

and actually vocalize. Any suggestions or comments are welcomed.

Our discussion group is. Voice_pigeons-doves@yahoogroups.com,

Respectfully: Lynx Abel. lynxabel@...,

Crooked Arrow Loft, CrookedArrowLoft@...,

Otter Creek  Trumpeters,    OtterCreekTrumpeters@...,

Toddville Iowa

We are planning on having Vocalization demonstrations this year at the

Iowa State Fair and the Iowa State Pigeon Association's National Pigeon

Association Show in Dec in Des Moines Iowa. 

                                                  Respectfully" Lynx Abel

 

---

Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

From time to time, I'll post a message about breeding a new kind of
pigeon called a Release Duv.  This message is about breeding for flying
skills.  I want to start with this characteristic because it's the one
I've put the most effort into over the last twelve or thirteen years.
I've mixed in several non-homer breeds over the years.  But before I
explain about flying style, let me explain about racing and clear up a
couple of misunderstandings.

The "homing" issue is misunderstood and has drawn some attacks.  Some of
my best friends are racers, so I figured out there is only a small
minority who simply don't understand the scientific principle of
"selection".  The vast majority of racing people are very smart, very
kind, and have minds big enough to accept more than one kind of pigeon.
In a later message, I'll explain why "selection" is making our "Release
Duvs" into better "homers" than strains that are only selected for
speed.

The other misunderstanding I want to clear up is that some people think
I'm attacking racing pigeons.  I'm not.  What you'll see in this message
and future messages is that we want to give our Release Duvs certain
characteristics that are different from racing pigeons, such as longer
circling time, because those characteristics make people happy as they
mark important milestones in their lives.

White bird releases are beautiful and inspiring whether they've been
done well with racing pigeons or poorly with ringneck doves.  My point
is that we can create a new breed with certain built-in characteristics.
If such a homing pigeon existed, it would be good for everyone including
ringneck doves.

People will learn to ask for a specific kind of bird that looks
beautiful, flies beautiful, and returns safely home.

SELECTION MEANS TESTING

If you've understood my previous messages about genetics and breeding,
then you know genes don't really "mix" as Mendel's "independent
assortment" suggests.  Rather, there are long segments of chromosomes
that remain intact as they're passed from parent to child.  It is
through multiple generations of "crossovers" that those chains are
eventually broken and shuffled.

So our goal and our challenge is to create, discover, and pass-down new
combinations of genes that give our birds the characteristics we desire.

To succeed with a breeding program, you need to understand those three
concepts; "create", "discover", and "pass-down".  It's not enough to
create a better combination of genes unless you're able to detect it and
pass it down to future generations consistently.

Breeding implies selection.  Selection means you must invent a test that
truly identifies something better.  That's the key.  You need to invent
whatever test is necessary to discover something is in fact better.

FLYING SKILLS

This message talks about flying skills and the test I've devised for
selection.

Whenever I read about white bird releases, I see the word "circle".  It
seems to be one characteristic that both we and our customers desire.
Yet we release birds that are bred for how quickly they come home.  Some
customers have been so disappointed by the lack of circling, they've
demanded a refund.

Why do we advertise circling, but breed birds that are tested for how
quickly they come home?  Why not breed for the characteristic we
advertise?  Once I realized what I wanted from my Release Duvs, the test
became obvious.

I take my birds, usually to a High School football stadium, and release
them in kits of about three birds.  I call this test, a "Fly-off".  The
stadium defines my viewing area.  As long as the birds circle in the
viewing area, their score goes up.  However, once they leave the viewing
area and I can still see them in the sky, their score goes down.

I want a bird that circles above its release point, and then quickly
leaves the sky to go home.

To be honest, I really wasn't thinking about the release business when I
defined this test.  What I wanted was a competition that allowed pigeon
enthusiasts to get together, talk about birds, judge them for show
quality, and then release them to judge for flying quality.

The whole thing came together in my mind one day after releasing birds
at my daughter's elementary school.  I handed out pigeons to the kids
and let them count down for a release.  My birds were a terrible mixture
of mutts back then.  The so-called bad homers circled for a while.  But
one kid, who released a so-called good homer, watched his bird bee-line
over the top of the school and disappear.  He looked at me like I had
intentionally cheated him some how.  That look haunted me and made me
realize "release" birds should be different from "racing" birds.

Please don't let me mislead you.  My birds have a long way to go.  But
I've also got a big head-start.  I'm happy that enough people are
starting their own breeding projects that all my extra birds find homes
someplace.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/ - A Group for Release Duvs
http://pigeonsnw.com/ - A group for Northwest Flyers and Fanciers
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PerformanceBreeds/ - A group for Flyers
http://ceremonydove.com/


P.S.  I started writing this message several months ago as a reply to a
great message from Wes Askins concerning the difference between Release
Duvs and Racing Pigeons.  Instead of one reply, this message turned into
a half dozen or more that I'll send over time.  Wes, I'm sorry for the
slow reply.  I'll send the other parts of my reply in coming weeks.

Hi friends.  Sometimes I think it will be impossible to ever again find time
for the pigeon forums.  I had hoped to find more time to discuss more issues
involved with writing a breeding plan so that we could avoid
misunderstandings and confusion.  But there simply isn't time.  Please
forgive me for springing this on you so abruptly.

BREEDING NOMENCLATURE

In my opinion, breeding progress requires a balanced use of lodging
capacity, selection tests, gene diversity, and gene refinement.

To achieve maximum progress, a technically accurate nomenclature is helpful.
This message doesn't explain the nomenclature that I've developed for
writing a breeding plan.  However, here is a set of definitions used in my
nomenclature followed by the specific factors that are used in any given
breeding formula expression.

DEFINITIONS

Nomenclature Map:  A set of abbreviations uniquely created by an individual
breeder to identify families and selection criteria.
Destination Set:  The youngsters produced in a breeding plan.
Source Set:  The breeding pairs identified for producing offspring.
Selection Criteria:  An objective test used for identifying breeders.
Selection Set:  Whether a selection test is determined directly or
indirectly.
Population:  The number of pairs in a Source Set or the number of birds in a
Destination Set.
Diversity:  If improvements are primarily achieved by creating and
discovering new gene combinations, then a diversity of genes must exist in a
population.  Diversity is primarily maintained by lodging multiple families.
Refinement:  Improvements can only be passed to future generations by
eliminating diversity through the creation of homozygous gene pairs.
Refinement is achieved through inbreeding.

BREEDING EXPRESSIONS

To create a usable nomenclature for writing a breeding plan, the following
requirements must be met.

1. It must be possible to identify a "family" of birds, (i.e. a Source Set)
used for breeding.   This requirement assumes such a family is sufficiently
refined as to carry a common set of genes.  When "outcrossing" is intended
as part of the plan, then it must be possible to identify two "families" of
birds.  Where a long-term plan includes multiple families, it is important
to create a "nomenclature map" to identify the families.

2. Selection Criteria must include an objective test.  Such a test may
encompass any number of criteria including visual appearance, flying skills,
health, fertility, show placement, or any other criteria that can be
objectively identified, including math formulas that may include multiple
criteria.  Where a long-term plan includes multiple tests, it is important
to create a "nomenclature map" to identify the tests.

3. The nomenclature must specify whether selection is performed by directly
measuring a set of birds or by indirectly measuring their offspring.

4. "Population" must be part of the nomenclature to identify the number of
pairs planned in the source set and the number of birds planned in the
destination set.  By planning the best use of lodging capacity, the most
progress can be achieved in a long-term plan.

5. The nomenclature must identify the relationship between members of a
pair.  For example an outcross is made when the relationship is too distant
to be noted.  Other relationships can include inter-generational
linebreeding, intra-generational cousins, or siblings.

There is much to discuss and clarify because we use a limited and
technically inaccurate vocabulary to describe concepts which fit somewhere
on an imprecise spectrum.  For example the term "outcross" could be used to
describe the breeding of two individuals who are so different that only
infertile mules are produced.  "Outcross" can also be used to describe the
pairing of two closely related individuals in which a minimum of hybrid
expression is produced but must nevertheless be considered.

It is the bane of every breeder to reach such a level of refinement that
improvement ceases.  If a breeder is producing racing pigeons, a good
long-term plan may include selection criteria such as fertility, race
results, performance of offspring, and homing skills such as surviving a
smash, or performance when single tossed.

I don't how much time I'll have to answer replies to this message.  Please
forgive me if my replies come slowly.


-Wynn Smith
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PigeonsNW/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WDRS/
http://ceremonydove.com/

I think I forgot to cc this one.

-----Original Message-----
From: NWDRS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NWDRS@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Wynn Smith
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 11:32 PM
To: NWDRS@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [NWDRS] Re: Release Duv News

Hi Kelley,

Flying Release Duvs is like flying tipplers.  You have to be your own
judge.  LOL.

When I fly the birds, I track which way they turn.  I mark the time when
they change direction "S-turn", when they drop to a lower altitude, when
they leave the viewing area, and when they've gone out of sight.  These
things help me make breeding decisions.

My lovely and beautiful wife, Shelly, records it for me.  The best tools
for this are an ordinary wrist watch and 4X football binoculars.  ...and
a card table, baseball cap, drinking water, snack, clipboard, folding
chairs, holding cage, release cage, good weather, and a football
stadium.  :)


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/
http://pigeonsnw.com/ - A group for Northwest Flyers and Fanciers



> -----Original Message-----
> From: NWDRS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NWDRS@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of overbykelley
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 8:39 PM
> To: NWDRS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [NWDRS] Re: Release Duv News
>
> Wynn,
> Who judges these fly offs?????
> Kelley
>
>
> --- In NWDRS@yahoogroups.com, "Wynn Smith" <wds.0513@o...> wrote:
> > We have a new record.
> >
> > Yesterday I did my first Fly-Off scoring with this year's
> youngsters.
> > Every year I've been getting better bests and fewer bads.  This
> year I
> > added a new outcross family to the competition and I worried
> whether the
> > new family would bring my average down.
> >
> > I got my best flight ever.  One kit of Release Duvs, from my older
> > family, set a new record before going home.  It was the first time
> a kit
> > of Release Duvs ever circled for more than a minute.
> >
> > I can't tell you how exciting that feels.  I've been developing
> these
> > birds since my married daughter was eight years old.  Yesterday I
> stood
> > there in the middle of the field watching my birds circle.  I felt
> my
> > blood pressure rising and my excitement building.  I just wanted
> to give
> > the whole world a big high five.
> >
> >
> > -Wynn Smith
> > (503)650-9496
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/
> > http://pigeonsnw.com/ - A group for Northwest Flyers and Fanciers
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> --------------------~-->
> Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo!
> your home page
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/6uurlB/TM
> --------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
>




Yahoo! Groups Links

Thanks Lee.  I've reached a point where the gene mix in my old family is
beyond the reach of the new outcrosses.  In earlier years, each outcross
project brought an improvement to their flying and so it was easy to
make the transition into new families.

This last outcross project started four years ago and they look great.
They fly good too.  A few years ago they would have been my best flyers.
But the new family needs to go through another outcross cycle before
they can catch up with my old family's flying skills... as they
demonstrated Sunday.  :-)


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/
http://pigeonsnw.com/ - A group for Northwest Flyers and Fanciers


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee
> Subject: Re: Release Duv News
>
> Lee here,
>  Wynn thats great i know how hard it is  to breed like that  seems
> like it is never gonna happen damn wish i could have been there
> .......... great stuff  wynn  really great !
>
>
>> Wynn Smith <wds.0513@...> wrote:
>>
>> We have a new record.
>>
>> Yesterday I did my first Fly-Off scoring with this year's
>> youngsters.  Every year I've been getting better bests and
>> fewer bads.  This year I added a new outcross family to the
>> competition and I worried whether the new family would bring
>> my average down.
>>
>> I got my best flight ever.  One kit of Release Duvs, from my
>> older family, set a new record before going home.  It was the
>> first time a kit of Release Duvs ever circled for more than a
>> minute.
>>
>> I can't tell you how exciting that feels.  I've been developing
>> these birds since my married daughter was eight years old.
>> Yesterday I stood there in the middle of the field watching my
>> birds circle.  I felt my blood pressure rising and my
>> excitement building.  I just wanted to give the whole world a
>> big high five.
>>
>>
>> -Wynn Smith
>> (503)650-9496
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/
>> http://pigeonsnw.com/ - A group for Northwest Flyers and Fanciers

We have a new record.

Yesterday I did my first Fly-Off scoring with this year's youngsters.
Every year I've been getting better bests and fewer bads.  This year I
added a new outcross family to the competition and I worried whether the
new family would bring my average down.

I got my best flight ever.  One kit of Release Duvs, from my older
family, set a new record before going home.  It was the first time a kit
of Release Duvs ever circled for more than a minute.

I can't tell you how exciting that feels.  I've been developing these
birds since my married daughter was eight years old.  Yesterday I stood
there in the middle of the field watching my birds circle.  I felt my
blood pressure rising and my excitement building.  I just wanted to give
the whole world a big high five.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/
http://pigeonsnw.com/ - A group for Northwest Flyers and Fanciers

Catherine,

Point 4, "Don't practice from the actual site", is good advice when
preparing for a business release.  But if you're testing for breeding
selection and you want to obtain circling skills, you'll want to release
from the same place multiple times.  This allows you to measure their
willingness to circle so you can make better breeding selections.


-Wynn Smith


> -----Original Message-----
> From: NWDRS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NWDRS@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of catherine bartuska
> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 6:51 AM
> To: NWDRS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [NWDRS] circling
>
> Hello!
> There were some good points in some older messages on
> the NWDRS--a couple I have found helpful are:.
> 1. A dark basket is helpful in that the bird seems to
> take a few seconds longer in geting out as he's
> allowing his eyes to adjust to the light.
> 2. If possible, place the release so the birds are
> faced in the opposite direction of their loft. They
> then have to go up and circle to get their bearings.
> 3. Educate your customers. Tell them the birds USUALLY
> circle and they may have to look for them as they will
> do this where they are comfortable--and usually high
> up. If they know what to expect and where to point the
> cameras they won't be disappointed.
> 4. Don't practice from the actual site! The birds will
> know where they are on the day of the event and fly
> straight up and like a bullet, head for home! I have a
> big wedding in a week about 15 miles from home. I have
> practiced a few times in the general area so they have
> a few landmarks in mind for the fly home, but not
> within 2 miles from the actual site in hopes for a few
> good circles.
> Anything else from anyone?
> Good luck!
> Catherine
> Silver Wind Loft
>

Matt and Jenn,

Circling is what everyone wants.  Many web pages promote the idea that
their birds gently circle up to the sky.  I have two suggestions below.

Unfortunately, most of us are flying white racing pigeons.  The trouble
with racing pigeons is that they've been selected and bred for their
ability to get home fast.  It's the opposite of what we want.

My first suggestion is a trick you can use on racing pigeons to make
them circle a bit longer.  Either cover the basket with a blanket, or
alter your basket so they can't see the sun.  It is the sun and its
position relative to time that pigeons use to orient first.  If the
pigeons can see the sun, or even the clouds covering the sun, they learn
which way to fly.  This trick will lose it's effect after a pigeon
becomes familiar with the release point.  So as it gets older, you're
left with its natural behavior.

It's not enough to blacken the inside of the basket.  It's the view of
the sun that needs blocked.  Upon release, the pigeons will take a
little longer to orient if they can't see the sky from inside the
basket.  The basket can be light inside or not.  It's the view of the
sky that matters.

My second suggestion is to breed for the features you want your birds to
have.  My own list includes things like tameness, small size, circling,
and beauty.  I know of several people breeding birds for the release
business.  Their birds are not selected for speed, but for other
features.

It's clear to me that white release birds will become a different breed
than racing pigeons.  I'm trying to start a new breed called Release
Duvs.  If you start your own breeding program, don't use the blanket
trick.  You want to select birds based on their natural behavior.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/
http://pigeonsnw.com/ - A group for Northwest Flyers and Fanciers



> -----Original Message-----
> From: NWDRS@yahoogroups.com [mailto:NWDRS@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf Of Matt and Jenn Rich
> Sent: Friday, August 26, 2005 6:29 AM
> To: NWDRS@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [NWDRS] circling
>
> We just had our first practice release with a upcoming bride and
> groom.  When we released the birds they hardly circled before heading
> out and went so far out to circle.  My question, is there anything
> that we can do to help this problem, I know we can not predict what
> they will do, but just to help us perfect the release.

---

From: geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com [mailto:geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kim Wright
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 2:14 AM
To: geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [geneticsforpigeons] Nature vs Nurture

This is the discussion about whether parenting skills (for instance) are inherited (nature) or are learnt from their parents (nurture). Does anyone have any thoughts about making good parent pigeons? I've recently had a couple of sets of youngsters just abandoned after a week or so.

 

I think in a small loft situation (less than 100 birds) where the birds are bred for colour and show type and aren't flown at all, the fancier will naturally select for that special colour or for a particular type that is likely to succeed in the show pen without taking into account the parenting ability of the particular bird. Over the long run this may lead to a population that has real trouble in raising their own young. For instance do birds "parent" better in isolation (individual pens) or when in a group (open loft)?

 

Over the last season or so I've started to record in my breeding records particular aspects of the pair's parenting behaviour. I guess over the long term this may help in selection of a better parenting strain. But in the short term I have some frustration in getting my birds to parent properly.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

 

Kim Wright

Brisbane, Australia

To look at breeding from a top-down perspective it helps to ask two
questions.

   Why do we breed?
   What tools do we have available?

It makes sense to think about breeding from the top-down perspective
because no matter what the low-level details tell us, we have to conform
our breeding system to the available tools.  In this document we
consider outcross, linebreed, cousin pair, and sibling pair.

For this discussion, linebreed means to pair across generational lines
such as parent/child, grandparent/grandchild, great grandparent/great
grandchild, etc.  Linebreeding is inter-generational.

The following chart may be useful for all kinds of breeding goals, but
this document was written with the idea that our breeding goal is to
generally improve a strain of animals.  Other breeding goals, not
addressed here, may include genetic study, moving phenotypes from one
family to another, or raising individuals for competition, who are not
used for future breeding.

Gene Combinations vs. Mutations

My contention is that improvement primarily comes by creating new mixes
from existing genes as opposed to creating and discovering new
mutations.  Of primary concern is the ability to preserve good mixes
that were achieved in previous generations so that they can be combined
with good mixes in future generations.

Furthermore, I'm not aware of any way to influence mutations.
Therefore, it makes sense to focus the design of a breeding system on
issues we can influence, namely creating and preserving new gene
combinations.

There are 40 or so chromosomes in a pigeon and so the unlinked
assortment described by Mendel is limited to a mixture of about 40
components.  And since the mix is unlinked, it is conceivable to
recreate such a mix in a different time and place.  Therefore, it makes
sense to focus on mixes that are not as easily recreated, namely linked
assortment.

Every chromosome is made of millions of base pairs.  The crossover
mechanism creates something truly unique in every new individual that
can't be easily recreated.  Therefore we should attempt to preserve and
accumulate new good mixes as our strategy for generally improving a
strain.

Diversity vs. Refinement

If we were able to create the perfect bird it would be highly refined
with good homozygous genes in every position that effected our
preferences.  In other words, it wouldn't be diverse.

By improving refinement, we increase breeding consistency.  Of course,
we don't want something that is consistently bad.  The ability to breed
consistently is only a good thing if no further improvement is desired.


Yet we want improvement.  Where improvement is desired, so is diversity.
Obviously, if our only goal were diversity, there wouldn't be any traits
to define a strain.  We may as well breed feral pigeons.

So, there's the other edge of the sword.  In order to eventually capture
good gene combinations, those genes have to be available to us in the
gene pool.  Therefore, breeding methods that excessively destroy
diversity, in an effort to improve refinement, limit the ability of
future generations to improve.

Breeding Strategy Includes "Selection"

Breeding assumes selection.  Unless we are able to make selections at
every generation, we can't improve a strain of birds.  Our goal is to
use a breeding method that provides a diverse choice of offspring
without either destroying the good refinements so far achieved, or
without destroying more diversity than is necessary.

The Expanded Tree

No matter which breeding methods we use, at any generation, we'll likely
face a loft full of birds from which to select future breeders.  One way
to increase our range of choices without increasing the number of birds,
is to use intra-generational breeding methods to allow future
generations to mix the same set of genes in more ways.

The main issue here is linebreeding.  Linebreeding is inter-generational
and injects previous DNA sequences into future generations.  There will
be fewer choices available when every bird is a direct descendent of a
single bird.

However, if intra-generational breeding is used, allowing the same genes
to mix and remix through the generations, a wider selection of choices
will become available.  The non-intuitive and apparent contradiction is
that the observable differences can increase simultaneously as
refinement improves.

Intra-generational breeding is like acceleration, allowing each stage to
advance on previous progress.  It allows the family tree to expand in
multiple dimensions to provide better future choices and to enable
differences to accelerate.


1 Low                                   Preserves  Leads to
2 Some             Preserves Increases  Assortment Expanded
3 High             Diversity Refinement Progress   Tree
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sibling Pair          1         3          3          3
-------------------------------------------------------------
Intra-Generational
Cousin Pair           2         2          3          3
-------------------------------------------------------------
Inter-Generational
Linebreed             1         3          1          1
-------------------------------------------------------------
Outcross              4         0          2          X


Sibling pairs reduce diversity, increase refinement, and preserve those
linked assortments which influenced selection.  It's important to note
that while diversity is reduced on any given branch of the family tree,
each branch potentially becomes an important sub-family that uniquely
preserves different diversity until the families are combined at later
stages.

Cousin pairs also reduce diversity, but to a lesser degree than sibling
pairs.  They increase refinement, but to a lesser degree than sibling
pairs.  Like sibling pairs, they preserve those linked assortments which
influenced selection.

Linebreeding reduces diversity and increases refinement for those gene
sequences carried by the senior mate.  The word "sequence" denotes the
lack of mixing.  Linebreeding returns some chromosome segments to an
earlier state thus erasing previously achieved linked assortments.
Every generation becomes a direct descendent of a single bird.

Outcrossing is used to inject new genes into a population.  Therefore it
dramatically increases diversity and destroys refinement.  Assortment is
not a consideration.  Outcross is typically only used for the first
generation and then followed by other breeding techniques.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReleaseDuvs/
http://pigeonsnw.com/

I've spent days writing what I thought were brilliant paragraphs to
describe the following chart.  And try as I might, I haven't found the
words to describe the complexity of what is going on here.  BTW, my
paragraphs wain't so brilliant.

The fourth column has as much long-term impact on a breeding project as
any other factor.  I believe it is the fourth column that has been
neglected by so many breeding programs.  The concept is acceleration.

1 Low                                   Preserves  Leads to
2 Some             Preserves Increases  Assortment Expanded
3 High             Diversity Refinement Progress   Tree
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sibling Pair          1         3          3          3
-------------------------------------------------------------
Intra-Generational
Cousin Pair           2         2          3          3
-------------------------------------------------------------
Inter-Generational
Linebreed             1         3          1          1
-------------------------------------------------------------
Outcross              4         0          2          3


-Wynn Smith

P.S.  Those numbers deserve some explanation.  I'll let it rest for a
few days, and then try fixing some of them paragraphs.  Be warned, they
wain't be brilliant.

Genetics only gets complicated if you let it.  Most of us, only need to
know enough about genetics to understand how our breeding decisions
effect future offspring.  So here's the "one screen-full version of
genetics"...

Every bird carries the genes of two birds.  Imagine that inside of each
bird are two ribbons; a blue ribbon from dad and a red ribbon from mom.
(Each ribbon represents a chromosome.  Each chromosome carries thousands
of genes.)

Before a bird becomes a parent, it prepares a ribbon to pass to its
offspring.  Imagine stacking those two ribbons so that the top and
bottom are perfectly aligned, and now cut the two ribbons in some random
place.  Trade halves so you have one ribbon that is red on top and blue
on the bottom, and the other is blue on top and red on the bottom.  This
trading of ribbon segments is called a crossover.

Now at random, choose one of the ribbons to pass to the offspring and
throw away the other ribbon.  The other parent will do the same, and so
now the offspring gets two ribbons, one from dad, and one from mom.

In reality there are about 40 pairs of chromosomes. (80 ribbons)

Some chromosomes may not go through a crossover, and in that case, the
parent passes one complete chromosome to its offspring.  On the other
hand, there could be multiple crossovers on a single chromosome.

You can be sure that every youngster receives multiple crossovers even
though any given chromosome may not have a crossover.

One final point;  There is one chromosome called the sex chromosome
because the hen only gets one, while the cock has the usual two.  For
most breeding decisions it doesn't make any difference.  However, if you
get interested in color genetics, you'll find this fact to be important.


-Wynn Smith

I posted this message in genetics.

-----Original Message-----
From: geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wynn Smith
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2005 12:08 AM
To: geneticsforpigeons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [geneticsforpigeons] Creating a new breed - (2 of 3, Bottom-Up)

Dick,

Thank you for being a good sport.  As you pointed out, it was a trick
question.  The question isn't "Where's the dollar?", because there is no
dollar.  The right question was, "Where's the $27"?

In our discussion, I'm viewing the issue from the perspective of what
breeding methods we should use.  So to me, it feels like a trick
question to ask how much science we have to determine the number of
chromosomes that effect color or pattern.

To understand how a breeding program should be designed, I asked myself,
"Is there scientific evidence to suggest that a chromosome can carry
more than one gene that effects a common area?"  Clearly the answer is
yes.  I believe we are both familiar with scientific evidence for
chromosomes that carry multiple genes that effect a common area.  It
doesn't matter how many other chromosomes carry genes that effect that
same area.

This message discusses the issue of breeding from a bottom-up
perspective.

I raised the issue of color and pattern because we are familiar with
those genes.  Clearly the genes that make bars in pigeons and colors in
parrots perform a specific function that helps their genes reach future
generations.  But I doubt that is true for most color and pattern
"genes".  I think the effect of most color and pattern genes is just a
side-effect of whatever other job they normally do.  I haven't analyzed
the known genes to speculate which genes are likely doing their function
and which are simply a side-effect.  But such an analysis would filter a
subset of data worth discussing.

Yet, we know of several genes whose linkage is mapped to others.  If
this is true of known genes, what about the huge number of unknown
genes?

I mentioned behavior and muscle tone because the genes that drive
pigeons home in a race haven't been mapped, but clearly they exist and
have an effect even though we don't know what chromosomes they live on.


We simply don't know much about 99.99..% of the DNA.  Yet it determines
virtually everything from visible feather shapes, to the invisible way
their liver processes blood after flying 500 miles.

We are too focused on phenotypes.  I believe my thinking cleared up a
bit when I began to consider the huge numbers we're talking about.
Rather than dozens of phenotypes, rather than twenty or thirty thousand
genes, we're really talking about billions of Cs, Ts, Gs, and As.

Each crossover creates a unique combination of DNA not found in any
other bird.  To the degree that we can prove the DNA combination
provides a benefit, we should strive to keep it.  If our goal is to
improve a strain, then we must use breeding techniques that allow us to
accumulate multiple, unique, beneficial gene combinations.

But it's not enough to create new unique gene combinations.  We have to
test them properly and we have to breed so that the best gene
combinations can be kept.

(that idea circles back into the note I wrote last year explaining that
diversity allows us to create unique gene combinations.)

Dick, you mentioned a few things that support my position more than your
position.

> if they were on an autosomal chromosome it is possible we might not
> even realize they are linked due to the weak linkage

I agree.

> [concerning the amount of unknown linkage]  Probably more then we know

> as if it is recessive and autosomal you do not have the advantage of
> showing when only one copy is present like you have with a sex linked
> character.

I agree.

> And for practical breeding purposes if they are that weakly linked you

> could as well view them as being on different chromosomes as they are
> inherited independantly.

That's where I disagree.  Yes, your statement is true if we limit our
view to observable phenotypes.  But that limitation ignores the other
99.99..% of DNA and shows a devotion to the philosophy of "independent
assortment".

By allowing ourselves to break from that philosophy we can design a
breeding program for linked assortments, and still gain the unlinked
assortments too.  Therefore, if our philosophy is based on "linked
assortment", then no extra breeding design is needed to keep the
unlinked assortment.


-Wynn Smith


________________________________

From: Richard Cryberg
Subject: Re: [geneticsforpigeons] Creating a new breed - Time, Lodging
Capacity, Cross-Over


	 Wynn,

	 Do you have any scientific evidence to back up your opinions on
how many chromosomes influence color, behavior and muscle tone?  I ask
because I can count over 20 color differences which are not linked and
thus appear to reside on in excess of 20 chomosomes.  Likewise with
behavior I think I can count in excess of 20 that have not been shown to
be linked.  And muscle tone is governed by so many factors that I would
expect at least 20 chormosomes are involved if not all 40.

	 Also I think you underestimate the importance of cross overs.
After you include the effects of cross overs you will have way more
independant units then the raw chromosome count would indicate.
Admitedly cross overs in some of the short chromosomes may not be all
that common.  But in long chromosomes you can expect multiple crossovers
every generation with the exception of the sex chromosome in hens of
course.

	 Also can you please provide some science that shows that genes
that effect a given character tend to occur on the same chromosome.  I
am unaware of any data that says this is the case.  In fact what has
been published about pigeons would refute this idea.

	 Dick





Yahoo! Groups Links

Gary,

Welcome aboard.

I started a different forum called ReleaseDuvs with the idea that we
would create a new breed called a Release Duv.  It would be a place to
gather and talk about genetics, breeding techniques, breeding goals,
competition, selection, etc.

I started this forum to discuss my own personal brand of birds.  I've
been working on them for a lot of years now.  I think I get too excited
talking about them.  That's probably why people keep asking about them
when I'm trying to discuss breeding issues.  Well, I'm happy to talk
about them, but I worry that I'm misleading people into believing that
I've successfully completed my project.  We have a ways to go.

I haven't tried to promote either forum.  Perhaps eventually I will.  I
expect they will sit quietly for another year or two.  I'll cc messages
to them from other forums that I'm active in.


-Wynn Smith


> -----Original Message-----
> From: CeremonyDove@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:CeremonyDove@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 3:00 PM
> To: CeremonyDove@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [CeremonyDove] new to this group
>
> Hi y'all,Looks like we have a new group going here.
>  Glad to join up and see if we can breed a better dove.
>   Gary H.

-----Original Message-----
From: Wynn Smith
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 10:34 AM
To: 'WDRS@yahoogroups.com'
Subject: RE: [WDRS] Question about Release Duvs flying

Mickey,

I'd like to say I "know" the answer to that.  But I don't.  Here's what
I think.

I think stamina (long-distance ability), homing ability, homing drive,
speed, and joy of flying are all separate things.  I believe the birds
can be tested and selected for those things.  Long term success in
breeding takes a combination of proper test, selection, and breeding
method.

For Release Duvs we want homing ability, but not homing drive.

I think a lot of racing people have been fooled in to the idea that
speed, stamina and homing ability are the same thing.  But speed,
stamina, and homing ability are three different things, of which only
speed has been used for breeding selection in racing homers.

For Release Duvs we want marathon stamina, but not sprinter speed.

Up until this year when I started pairing best flying whites to best
flyers, my entire focus was on the circling skill.  The other things
I've talked about showed up in my birds coincidentally, simply from
gaining the genes from other breeds.

Mickey, you asked a great question; how to increase circling ability
without losing homing ability.  The answer is proper testing and
selection.  I had to define a good test.

My breeding selection is based on Fly-Off scores.  I score the birds by
releasing them someplace that has a well defined viewing area.  For
example there are a couple of parks locally with open fields lined by
trees.  Farther from home, I usually hunt down a high school football
field.

I release the birds and time how long they fly in the viewing area.  As
long as they stay in the viewing area, their score is going up.  But
after they leave the viewing area, they should go straight home.  Their
score goes down for as long as I can continue seeing them in the sky.
BTW, 4X binoculars and an ordinary wrist watch are great tools for this
test.

This test will make more sense if you consider two extremes.  In the
first extreme, a racing homer who is familiar with a certain part of
town will dart straight away and head home.  It only takes two or three
seconds to leave the viewing area, but they remain visible a bit longer
than that.  Most of them will score zero point something.  A younger
racing homer might score two or three, but still their score will remain
low.

In the second extreme, some of my birds were equally bad.  But their
scores were as low as the racing homers because they lacked homing
ability.  Such a bird won't stay in the viewing area very long.  In a
short time they will drift out of the viewing area and continue circling
in other parts of the sky.

But a good Release Duv will circle longer in the viewing area, and when
they leave the viewing area, they'll be less likely to linger.  I often
get scores greater than 20.  The birds who score well tend to score well
with enough consistency to stay at the top of the flying sheets.

Please don't let me mislead you.  While I'm able to raise some good
birds each year, I raise more bad birds.  This project is too young to
breed with much consistency.

But when I compare the scores over the years, I can see every year
getting better.  I'm getting better bests, and fewer bads.

Does that answer the question?  OH!  There is a test for homing ability.
I single toss every bird except for days when I score Fly-Off kits.
Every bird has to prove it can come home on its own.


-Wynn Smith
(503)650-9496


> -----Original Message-----
> From: milkyd402
> Subject: [WDRS] Question about Ceremony Doves flying
>
> Hey Wynn you had said that you were wanting your birds to circle for
> longer and put on a show before flying off, I was just curious how a
> breeder would set this situation up?  Now please I'm sure you know, I
> know very little about breeding, or even pigeons, so what I've always
> imagined was that birds that circled longer were having a harder time
> getting their bearings. And I could be completely mistaken about that,

> Have you found this not to be true?  Or if it is true, do you worry
> about how you'll correct for that aspect, because that would signify a

> weaker homing instinct right, or just a slower one to kick in??
> Anyhow just something I was thinking about earlier today, because my
> young birds put on a great show of flying around and circling, but
> once they know where they are and get more comfortable with the
> "routine" they quit doing that.  Talk with you soon, hope all is well
> in your neck of the country.
>
> ~Mickey

Hi Birney,

I hope dem birds be circling good!

> "pairing birds within their generation"  Is this
> brother/sister matings?

By definition, all F1s are siblings.  So with F1, the second generation
after P1, the answer is yes.  Pair them brother/sister.

It is technically accurate to write "F1" because it's well defined.  But
what's an F2?  Which F1s produced it?  The traditional nomenclature doesn't
allow us to have a technically accurate discussion.  (I've got a different
nomenclature, which I hope to explain someday.)

The puzzle of how to breed after F1 revolves entirely around making the best
use of your lodging capacity.

It only takes a year or two to fill a loft.  After that it's a trade off of
how hard to pursue the best possible new gene combination out of a
particular sub-family, versus making room for more sub-families.

(I'm skipping a big part of the explanation that involves trying to discover
the good recessives.)

It's obvious that if you had unlimited space and money, it would be best to
refine genes with sibling pairs.  This would get you closer to finding 100%
of the best possible new gene combinations that a sub-family could produce.
(remember, P1 will produce F1 year after year.  How do we make room for
them?  How do we make room for their children? grandchildren?  etc.)

I've run a few computer simulations.  I believe that for most of us, it's
best to pair carefully selected cousins.  (but selection involves another
big discussion.)

So there's the spectrum.  Using your lodging capacity to find the best of
each sub-family versus finding the best sub-family.  At the end of a
project, there will have been only a few birds that lead to your result.  I
believe you can use cousins to get 80% of the potential with only a fraction
of the resources... assuming proper selection and enough time for recessives
to play out.


-Wynn Smith


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Birney Bowmaster
> Subject: Re: Line-Breeding clarifications
>
> Wynn,
>
> "pairing birds within their generation"  Is this
> brother/sister matings?
>
> Birney