----- Original Message -----

From: akhlaq ahmad

To: Tippler Talk

Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 3:43 AM

Subject: RE: [TT] FW:( AK] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT FOUNDING

Nino,
Please remember that God only help those
who help themselves and do keep an open
mind but are full of bias and predice.
 A carefull study of Chapter 9 of Dr. Stovin's
 book would reveal that he did not use any
of the " inter-related families" that could or did 
"get collected"/crop up during progeny testing.
In fact he has mentioned that he selected 20 
for progeny test. That only one from those
twenty stock birds produced progeny of any
consequence shows poor selection. My
contention is that had he paid attention to
the art or science of judging birds by their
phenotype characteristics; what we here in
the East call "Perkh" or "Jaanch", he would not
have wasted so much time and effort.
No I don't label any person a "School Drop-Out"
merely because one disagrees with my opinion
but give such credit to only the bonafide ones.

Akhlaq Khan

---

To: TipplerTalk@yahoogroups.com
From: neen@tipplers.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:24:56 -0500
Subject: Re: [TT] FW:( AK] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT FOUNDING

AK,

 

I am calm, and I would have to be a lot more "loaded" before I could screw this up LOL !! If you really believe what you are saying here, then god help us all !!

 

Who can spend 20 years of their lives doing something you say, and then you call that fact absurd !! Only a true breeder with a vision to achieve excellence would do that, something you are not by the way you are talking.

 

You see how you now have even taken the position that Stovin does not know what he is talking about, sounds just like the way you talk of me !!!! I am willing to bet, that any one that does not agree with your opinions on things of "fact" are "School Drop Outs" in your view . You on the other hand have no where to produce any "Facts" to back up your beliefs on breeding other than your meaningless claims.

 

Our mutual friend Danny has so kindly given you a answer to what Stovin was attempting to do, in the hopes he can make you understand what he was doing, so that you do not put forth such a stupid argument ! take head to what he says !!

 

Good luck

 

 

 

 

All the Best!
Neen
C.N.T.U

----- Original Message -----

From: akhlaq ahmad

To: Tippler Talk

Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:57 PM

Subject: RE: [TT] FW:( AK] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT FOUNDING

Nino,
Why do'nt you cool dow a bit and for once and pay more attention to what you read in asobre state of mind !
As would appear from the following para of his book Dr Stovin did not use Inter-relate- Sub families initially but these were out crosses of his breeding efforts that he discarded :
   " Next I propose to show how my projected system of progeny testing operates. In the course of time " A NUMBER OF INTER-RELATED SUB-FAMILIES COLLECT IN THE LOFt, AS IS ONLY TO BE EXPECTED. I AM NOT INTENDING TO INTRODUCE ALL SUCH INDIVIDUAL BIRDS BECAUSE THE TEXT WOULD QUICKLY BECOME A MERE REPETITION OF RING NUMBERS WITHOUT ANY USEFUL PURPOSE HAVING BEEN SERVED. "
Now what have you to say about Inter-Related Sub-Families.
If you care to read the last para of his book under review you woul realise that he started with 20 foundation Pigeons out which the Blue Bar Cock--NURP 56 HPN 236, " was the only one to come to the fore as a sire of useful youngsters ".
It is apparent that despite of his experience in Racing Pigeon Fancy he was an extremely poor judge of Pigeons. I am confident that had he paid attention to faciclity of " Perkh " that we find here in the East so useful in judging individual birds in the absence of written pedigrees he would have done much better.
Again if what you say about paucity of time as a hurdle in his way to produce any worthwhile true-breeding birds of winning ( not race-time making) quality, it is quite absurd. As who lives or can spare 20 years of life time to avail the fruits of his efforts for the next 20 years, even if he is successful to achieve his objectives ! 

Akhlaq Khan

---

To: TipplerTalk@yahoogroups.com
From: neen@tipplers.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:40:51 -0500
Subject: Re: [TT] FW:( AK] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT FOUNDING

AK,

 

If you would go back and read it again, you would find that yes, you clearly have missed that very point in question, and that is exactly what he started his progeny testing from !!!! In fact, your whole first paragraph is totally wrong and out to lunch !

 

Stovin never failed as you have suggested in his selection process by what you call "Perkh" , but rather made note that a birds worth can not be judged by its visual appearance with any certainty ! I have no idea where you come up with that from reading this book.

 

Like I said in my last post to you, the reason was he did not continue this program to its end as he was just to old, time was against him. He made that criteria clear early in the chapter, again you must have missed that point.

 

In closing I would like to know exactly what you mean when you say "Corrective Breeding ". What is the method behind this statement.

 

 

 

 

All the Best!
Neen
C.N.T.U

----- Original Message -----

From: akhlaq ahmad

To: Tippler Talk

Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 1:59 AM

Subject: RE: [TT] FW:( AK] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT FOUNDING

Nino,
I have not missed anything. About inter-related
families he says that he has ignored discussing
them for saving time. I am sure he did not use
birds from these families, at least for any good.  
I stick to my thoughts that breeding technique
adopted by Dr Stovin was very sound but he 
failed to avail it properly producing just mediocre
progeny, birds making race time only and many a
failure; even the ones that "fielded". 
Rest assured that I have always used Inbreeding 
as well as Line Breeiding but did avial a cross here
 (but not with Tumblers or Rollers) and this for
what I term "Corrective Breeding ". You will be
glad know that, in addition to a century old
Strain / of my family of High Fliers I have only 6
other Breeds/Strains for the last 20  years. and
with these I get one or more positions every year in
highly contested competitions.  What Dr Stovin
 failed to ensure was the selection of proper
parent stock due mainly to the fact that he did
not know nor believed in what we call "Perkh" or
the art of judging birds by their physical
appearance/traits or the Phenotype that reflects
Genetype of birds and other animals. This is
supported by the fact that according to him only
one out of the 20 birds that he selected for breeding
initially proved to be of some consequence and that
too failed to produce progeny of any great
consequence. 
Akhlaq Khan

---

To: TipplerTalk@yahoogroups.com
From: neen@tipplers.com
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:22:42 -0500
Subject: Re: [TT] FW:( AK] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT FOUNDING

AK,

 

Evidently you say ! I will venture a response to you about chapter 9, and without going through it to carefully as you have prep me to do as this will leave the door open for an answer from you, how does that sound ?

 Chapter 9 was meant to offer a progeny testing method, and outline the general principals behind it, as well as a follow up to his writings on what he believed in through deeds done in his lifetime. He also makes comment to the fact that he really should not write on a method before he has seen through to the end, as he did this at an age that would not allow him the time to do just that.

 

What you seem to have missed while reading this chapter, is the fact that he states quite clearly he will be starting this method with "interrelated sub-families" as he referred it to, not a in-breed family of individuals. As you read on, he describes what he did and just how the stock performed from said mating. It goes on and on with just mediocre results. As I sated at the beginning he claimed due to his age, he would with all likely hood not get to where it would prove to be rewarding, but by know means was it the wrong approach. In other words he was trying to establish, to find those birds that were exceptional, that was his driving force.

 

Here is what he wrote in that chapter  He is talking about a cock bird he was using and at some point he was able to acquire a brother and it goes something like this, he is making mention of a acquiring a brother to a cock he has been using. It was a half brother from the same cock but an outside hen. He goes on to say that he mated that cock to a number of different hens without having bred a youngster of any merit.

 

 " here ounce again is corroborative support for the statement that I made earlier. In a outbred stock, relationship is no criterion of similar breeding or racing merit. Only a closely inbred stock can brothers or sisters be expected to breed or race in like fashion. "

 

So let me take this one step more, because the two cocks were from the same sire, but from unrelated hens, they were in all likely hood Heterogzous, or Impure for the traits he so desired, get it !

 

Lastly, I believe Stovin like so many others had the great animal sense to understand how to and achieve exactly what they were after. Yes it took years, but their rewards are undeniable..

 

In your last paragraph you state that Stovin is an expert when breeding milk or beef cattle, but not with pigeons but this also tells me that you really have no idea of what he/ or others have done over time through Line-breeding/In-breeding. You have missed the point by many on this point including myself. Remember, it is you that have all the degrees in these areas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

All the Best!
Neen
C.N.T.U

----- Original Message -----

From: akhlaq ahmad

To: Tippler Talk

Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:49 PM

Subject: RE: [TT] FW:( AK] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT FOUNDING

Nino,
Evidently Stovin must have used breeding
methods that he has advocated in his book.
Sorry I was not there to study and analyse
reasons for his failure to produce birds that
could become winners and not just birds
that achieved " race time ". I have quoted his 
words and results of his pairing as given by him.
May be you could throw some light and answer
the question that you have posed. I would
however appreciate/request that you go through
his book; specially its Chapter 9, very carefully
 before venturing an answer. 
In my opinion Stovin might have been an expert
 in breeding milch and meat cattle but his book
reflects him to be an ordinary/mediocre Pigeon
Fancier. I say so as Fanciers without so deep
a knowledge of genetics often do better. I can
quote Frank as one of several of them !
Akhlaq Khan

---

To: TipplerTalk@yahoogroups.com
From: neen@tipplers.com
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:38:05 -0500
Subject: Re: [TT] FW:( AK] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT FOUNDING

AK,

 

About your statement concerning chapter 9 of Stovins book, exactly what method of breeding was he using ? You stated that he was unable to produce any birds other than those that produced "Race Time " ability ! In other words nothing other than mediocre stock right ? In your opinion what were the reasons for this, especially when dealing with a man of such achievement and recognition when it comes to breeding.

 

 

All the Best!
Neen
C.N.T.U

----- Original Message -----

From: akhlaq_khan2006

To: TipplerTalk@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:56 AM

Subject: Re: [TT] FW:( AK] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT FOUNDING

It is very typical of you to assume that others have not read what
you have gone through. How can a reasonably intelligent person doubt
that the writer has not read the book when he quotes some of its
paras verbatum. It is also clear that it is you who have forgotten
what you read from the book that you lostlong time back.
If you care to read that book and my quotes once again and more
carefully it is the method of selection of the parent stock
recommended for a novice by Dr Stovin through the use of " his
wisdom and efficieny " that is so strange. In fact I have not seen
any book where selection of the basic stock and breeding/Genetics
has been made so easy.
It is characteristic of you again to presuppose that others have no
knowledge of basics of Genetics and naieve of you to claim that I
was not familiar with Mendel'3 Laws and it was you who explained
these to me. And this in the face of the knowledge that I studied
Biology for my Bachelors degree, Botany for my Master's degree and
took 100 Credit courses; both in Genetics and Plant Breeding at the
prestigious University of Minnesota in USA.I and many others know
where you stand in accademic qualifications.
I muted the question about the method a novice should use to select
initially birds for stocking his loft with a view to agitate minds
of experienced practical fanciers and have been quite successfull to
achieve this objective.I am sure many members have gained a lot. I
agree with methodolgy laid down so beautifully by Danny and Mick
through TT and Aussie Tipplers and also by Rich in Tippler Chat. To
it I would add mandatory assistance of an experienced and competent
Ustad/Mentor for selecting stock birds as no amount of "wisdom and
efficiency" on the part of a beginner would help him in this regard.
Or do you think it would ?
Akhlaq Khan

In TipplerTalk@yahoogroups.com, "nino" <neen@...> wrote:
>
> Its a good book and meant to put forth some challenge in its
writings. Stovin like many other informed animal breeders are of the
same thinking when referring to in-breeding/line breeding.
>
> Its nice to see that Danny is in agreement with such writings and
has a great grip on what is asked and how to achieve it. He also
recognizes that when striving foe Excellence, it is an ongoing saga
that can last a life time, a part of this book I think you have
missed from what I read below.
>
> I am at a loose reading what you wrote below, from what you posted
earlier and the question you asked of the forum ! If you have read
the book by Stovin, then I think you have missed the point of what
he has been saying. Also, he is referring to an Outcross within the
same breed, not crossing to other breeds of birds at some point if
the fancier feels that his stock is lacking in the areas he is
after. He also stresses that the bird must be of the highest caliber
to start the new breeding off in the right direction.
>
> There is no "Snag" as you put it in his wisdom, but rather your
understanding of how those that wish to have "Better Stock" achieve
it. He is speaking of "Genetic Purity" in his, or others stock for
Traits and Characteristics that they strive for, again an ongoing
saga.As you must have read he refers to "Mendel" why ? because he
basis his life's work on "Mendel's" theory's of genetics, you know
his "Three Laws" I spoke to you about.
>
> You spoke of fanciers wasting their time on colors as
being "Frivolous" and you utilizing the term "Ideal", would show
that your understanding of the term is lacking in itself, as if it
were not for our forefathers in the breeding of pigeons, there would
not be such colors and color marked birds like Helmets, Nuns, and a
host of others.
>
> I do not know how many if any 18hr plus birds have been shipped
from Great Britain around the world, but to say that those that may
have received such stock have failed in some respect with them is
shocking and wrong, and that they only do this to "Glean
Satisfaction " is totally wrong, as is your understanding of why
they take such action. For those that go to the trouble of importing
what is perceived to be much higher quality are doing this to try
and improve their existing stock, something I guess you overlooked
when writing what you did.
>
> It would seem that you have different thoughts on how one would
create a loft full of birds or cows, rats or mice for that matter
that are of higher caliber than their own respective breed, so the
question begs to be asked: tell us how you would have a novice start
and exactly what coarse of action in terms of a breeding program
would you have them follow. One that would and could answer all the
negativity you have put forth hear to us on this post from you.
>
>
> All the Best!
> Neen
> C.N.T.U
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: akhlaq ahmad
> To: Tippler Chat ; Tippler Talk
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 10:22 AM
> Subject: [TT] FW: [aussietipplers] BREEDING BETTER
PIGEONS...LOFT FOUNDING
>
>
>
> Hi All,
> For Info pls. !
> Urs in the Sport,
> Akhlaq Khan
>
> To: aussietipplers@yahoogroups.com
> From: akhlaqspigeon@...
> Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 20:01:46 +0500
> Subject: RE: [aussietipplers] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT
FOUNDING
>
>
>
>
>
> BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS
>
>
> WELDONE DANNY !!!
>
> I wish Dr. Stovin had described and explained
>
> the procedure to the beginner to procure initial
>
> stock as you have done so beautifully
>
> instead of leaving it to his " wisdom and
>
> efficiency".However, there is still a big snag.
>
> It is admitted that an " ideal " can be created
>
> and maintained for 20 year but would it do for
>
> competitions?. Again would his competitors stand
>
> still and would not try to create a better "ideal"
>
> than him. And then there is the question of improvement
>
> in the flying techniques and feed-ups to contend with.
>
> You see here in Pakistan, and now in Emirates, there
>
> is cut throat competition due to ever increasing stakes,
>
> both in financial terms and prestige of Fanciers and
>
> their Ustads. So if an " ideal " created so long
>
> back is allowed to be static where would that leave the
>
> developer viz a viz his opponent who is constantly
>
> trying to improve the quality of his birds and his flying
>
> technique and feed ups.
>
> It is true that there is many a hazard in cross-breeding
>
> but an experienced fancier can do wonders provided
>
> one does not delve in such frivolous pastime as
>
> introduction of a colour, etc. What I have found is
>
> that most of the fanciers outside Great Britain import
>
> 18 hr.+ birds but, failing to exploit their full potential
>
> try to glean satisfaction by such action. ( This is an
>
> impression that I have gathered and by such
>
> comment I do not intend to negate any Fancier.)
>
> Another set back is undue reliance on pedigree instead
>
> of the individual bird and scrupulous avoidance
>
> of cross breeding even for what I call corrective
>
> breeding. This assertion is backed by the fact that
>
> even when one is successful in producing all birds
>
> like peas in a pot, inbreeding or line breeding would
>
> seldom afford birds with potential excelling the
>
> original " ideal ' and better gene/genes shall have to
>
> be availed through crossing.
>
> If you go through Chapter 9 of Dr. Stovin's book
>
> you will find that he personally was never able to
>
> produce birds capable of achieving any worthwhile
>
> position in races but those that just achieved
>
> "race time" ability. What is more he lost a number
>
> of birds through " fielding" and attributed such loss
>
> to the farmers using insecticides.
>
> Urs in the Sport,
> Akhlaq Khan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
-----------
> To: aussietipplers@yahoogroups.com
> From: Danny4919@...
> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 19:37:45 +0900
> Subject: RE: [aussietipplers] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT
FOUNDING
>
>
> Hi AK,
> I will try and answer your questions which relate to
Dr.Stovin's statements in his book "Breeding Better Pigeons".
> The first step a novice should take, is to do his homework on
the breed he intends to keep. He should try and learn as much as he
can about the breed, where it comes from, what if any is the
standard of the breed. What are it's characteristics and who are the
people who have them in their loft, so that he could go and view
some. Once he has done all this, he should find a reliable breeder
with good standing in the sport , who has the breed that he is
interested in. If he has done his home work well, he will know
pretty well who the breeders are that he should be talking to. He
should try and purchase a couple of pairs from his chosen breeder
and start his breeding programme with the said birds. He should not
expect miracles straight away, but as time passes on he will have
bred birds from the original 2 pairs from which he would pick his
IDEAL.
> This can only happen once he has bred a bird that is outstanding
enough with all the traits that he would like in a bird, which in
turn can pass down all his traits to his offspring, so as to
basically reproduce himself. This bird would then be his foundation
sire. His" IDEAL".
> Once he has been able to produce birds that are his Ideal or
close to it, he should only bred from these birds so as to
strengthen the gene pool and produce birds of a same likeness. By
inbreeding his birds he will with proper selection and culling
create his own line of birds which mirror image his ideal. He would
then have his own line of birds, created to what his standards are.
As far as out crossing is concerned I totally agree with Dr. Stovin.
You would not have to do this for a very long time due to the strong
gene pool that one has already created. By introducing an out cross,
no doubt one increases the vigour of the new offspring's, but along
with it one also introduces a lot of undesired traits,that one has
previously ironed out over a long period of time in ones original
birds. As Dr. Stovin says it may come to pass that the introduction
of an out cross in many cases may not be as good as the original
line one already has. It is a risk one takes every now and then, but
the results can be very regressive. In my view, to increase the gene
pool of any close inbred line is flirting with disaster. Especially
if the line is living up to ones IDEAL.
> Cheers, Danny..
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussietipplers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:aussietipplers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of akhlaq ahmad
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 January 2009 12:30 AM
> To: Tippler Talk; Tippler Chat; aussietipplers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [aussietipplers] BREEDING BETTER PIGEONS...LOFT
FOUNDING
>
>
>
>
>
> On page 40 of his book tiled " Breeding Better Pigeons " Dr.
G.H.T. Stovin ( 1960) writes:
>
>
> " As soon the owner is successful in
>
> finding one, two, or three pigeons capable
>
> of breeding birds that can fly and race, he
>
> should completely close his loft. This
>
> means simply that, having the foundation
>
> pigeons required, he resolutely resists the
>
> temptation to buy, or to accept as gifts,
>
> birds from some outside source. If his
>
> initial choice has been made wisely and
>
> efficiently, and, if he pursues the breeding
>
> policy outlined later in this book, he should
>
> not need an outcross for at least twenty years."
>
> The breeding policy he recommends is
>
> Inbreeding or Line Breeding. The question
>
> arises as to how can a new and an
>
> inexperienced fancier succeed " in finding
>
> one, two or three pigeons capable of
>
> breeding birds that can fly and race " ?
>
> Can any fancier friend throw some light on
>
> the subject.
>
> In addition to his stand that one shall
>
> not need an out cross for at least twenty
>
> years he also claims that even at the end
>
> of twenty years if that fancier contemplated
>
> an out cross he shall find that " his own inbred
>
> stock was vastly superior to anything that
>
> can find " and he will be " compelled to
>
> continue with his own inbred family ".
>
> I shall submit my own thoughts about
>
> this issue on receipt of views of my learned
> and experienced fancier friends !
>
> Urs in the Sport,
> Akhlaq Khan
>
>
>
> President of Punjab Flying Tippler Club
> Lahore-54000, Pakistan
>
>
>
>
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