Having problems with message search?
Neen
C.N.T.U
----- Original Message -----From: akhlaq ahmadTo: Tippler TalkSent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:22 AMSubject: RE: [TT] outcross .. when ?Nino,
I hope you know meaning of the word 'quote'.
If not please consult some dictionary!
By Corrective Crossing I simply mean the removal
of a shortcoming in an otherwise very good bird by
crossing it with a bird that possesses the trait lacked
by the former.
I shall write a short note about my
method some time later.
Akhlaq Khan
To: TipplerTalk@yahoogroups. com
From: neen@tipplers.com
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:15:45 -0500
Subject: Re: [TT] outcross .. when ?
+AK,I am not sure what you mean by 'Quote" it was you tar said you have a method called Corrective Breeding, I am simply asking what you mean and do when applying said method .All the Best!
Neen
C.N.T.U----- Original Message -----From: akhlaq ahmadTo: Tippler TalkSent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:32 PMSubject: RE: [TT] outcross .. when ?Could you quote your message containing
your request for explaining Corrective
Crossing?
Akhlaq Khan
To: TipplerTalk@yahoogroups. com
From: neen@tipplers.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:53:46 -0500
Subject: Re: [TT] outcross .. when ?
Hey, I asked you what you meant by Corrective Breeding, but you refuse to give me a answer as usual.Also, what is so profound a statement from what I say ? You are the one that laid the ground rules down on how you select your stock, not just new, but for many months now, and in many other posts. This all the information you give us, so yes, that is how I see things. And yes, Stovin is saying that one can not, with any sound assurance select stock on performance based on a visual only. He is not alone on this one and for good reason, it all goes back to a informed understanding of what you claim to be so "learned on" and that is genetics !So are you going to tell me what you call Corrective Breeding or not ??All the Best!
Neen
C.N.T.U----- Original Message -----From: akhlaq ahmadTo: Tippler TalkSent: Friday, January 16, 2009 3:28 AMSubject: RE: [TT] outcross .. when ?Hi,
" Next... Ak's method is not realy a sound one,
but in all fairness to that statement I think we
do all that to a certain extent. It is just that
we like to (too?) many birds ". Nino !
What a profound statement in the face of the
fact that person issuing it is not even fully
aware of the details of my method and when in
actuality it is the one that has been developed
and put to practice hundreds of years ago and
is being used by hundreds of thousand of
Fanciers in the East. Does he mean to say
that "We also use this method of pairing but
it is not sound as it is also used by Akhlaq? "
Urs in the Sport,
Akhlaq Khan
President of Punjab Flying Tippler Club
Lahore-54000, Pakistan
To: TipplerTalk@yahoogroups. com
From: neen@tipplers.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:50:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [TT] outcross .. when ?
Mick,This is a mitt full to respond to >First,, I can not speak for Oskar, other than over his long term in the fancy, and given that man is very wise in his thinking along with that never ending take on things can always be better. He was after birds with traits that could be utilized in his loft that would help give him what he needed to dark fly. For those reasons he did introduce some outcrosses and he would fly and test them to their full potential, as young and then as old birds if you will. If they didn't work out he would eliminate all if them. Don't get me wrong, he was still the top flyer long before I met him, but dark flying over here meant birds that flew lower and had more control, so he experimented with some until he settled on something he thought would work with his family.As for me, I started with different birds from a few different sources and worked with them until I found what was worth while . I also was gifted with some from Oskar, and Danny Boy in my early years, and up until last year have not needed a outcross for any reason other than to fly them and now to have some fun with some ideas in terms of breeding. But as I said, it can take a very long time to get where one wants when doing this, and you must understand that I really do not believe I have a "Strain" yet, but rather I am working in that direction with my stock. They are becoming more "Pure' as a loft, but are not there yet LOL !The cock I used was down from my foundation cock, and was a stock bird. He is black and I kept him on the basis of his linage and I liked his "Type" if you will. He has produced hens I have flown to record times out of two different hens, so with that I jumped in.For your fourth paragraph, I do not understand so please collaborate a bit more on this one.Fifth,,,,, My thoughts on this are as follows, and that is I think your thinking is what is driving you to the question. What you must realize is when following a inbreeding/in-breeding program is that the whole idea is to get the loft to a higher excellence with every passing generation ! There is no bell cure, just a straight line to even more excellence, as your birds can never be to "Pure" for their traits and characteristics. So stop and rethink what you are saying here. It is my belief that when the term Pre-Potent is used for either a sire or a hen, it is representing a bird that is the exception to the group in terms that it is so pure for so many gene pairs in the areas one wants, and that it has proven that fact through progeny testing from at least 10 different partners is what I strive for.Next,,,,, Aks method is not really a sound one, but in all fairness to that statement, I think we all do that to a certain extent. Its just that we like to many dam birds LOL !!!Look, if you have a family of birds that have been following a program of close relationship, and if you have along the way proven some of those birds, and if you have selected correctly ( a lot of ifs ) then yes your chances of stocking birds that are not proven are for sure more consistent, as they are more Pure genetically than the average of their breed for those wanted traits. But you must remember that even two brother or sisters can prove to be totally opposite in their ability to perform or as a breeder. This is due largely to the fact that one may be more Hetrogzous ( impure ) than Pure , or Homo !If I understand your question correctly, when it comes to BOP I never really shy away from flying anything I like. If I raise a bird like that opal white bar, ( far a few between ) I could keep it in on color alone. Then I would use it without really knowing how it performed, and that would be a mistake. I did just that in 07, Luka just about shit himself when I told him I was settling him, he loves that bird and wanted me to keep him in, but what the hell I told him. He fly's or he dies was my answer to Luka LOL !! No, if your loft has been on the right track for some years then I see no reason to worry about any gene loss when it comes to any one bird. Unless you have such exceptional sire that it really would be detrimental to your loft with its loss.In my scenario, I flew my best time of just over 16hrs to beat OMB from New York, that was in 2000, I have bettered that time 4 times and last year called 16hrs 46m, and then went on to get DQEd for over the hour. I got one Indigo on the loft at 17hrs and that opal and red mottle were still flying but would not drop at 17hrs 46 when I got the hammer down on me. Even then we could still see them in the dark passing by.. But as they were not dark trained they would not respond. So I guess the times have gone up, whether it be breeding or better handling I am not sure. When it come to other guys, they have been improving their times in the dark, just bit unlucky is like Oskar has flown them over 19hrs but always something goes wrong at the end like not being able to drop them dam birds, they are just to strong. Luka has been at the 17hr mark a few times but luck has not been on his side, harpreet has flown the birds well over 17hrs and he also has been unlucky. The stock over here, in the right hands are every bit as good as anywhere, just the conditions are different is all, and maybe the dedication is lacking with a lot of guys over here as well.So in answer to your question YES the times are still going up, and if we had the same conditions as our friends over the pond, believe me we would be knocking at their door LOL !!Boy, I need a rest !All the Best!
Neen
C.N.T.U----- Original Message -----From: MHSent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 3:57 PMSubject: RE: [TT] outcross .. when ?Nino,
Another few questions to you … I’m pretty sure I have an idea of just some of the answers, not all, but I would like to hear your thoughts. When one is attempting strain building I know that filial degeneration determines the need to bring in a quality cross to that continuous inbreeding program. I’ve read the term Grand Dam used and understand that she is brought in at a particular point in a breeding program in the hope of transferring the inherent qualities of her well bred family to create a subfamily of your main family.
Thanks to guys like yourself and Oscar, your family is already an established strain over many generations, so if it’s not a personal question, what prompted you guys to introduce new blood into the established Canadian lines, they have been well performed for many years, have they hit a ceiling in performance or are you just looking to increase the abilities before they do hit that performance and breeding ceiling.
Tell me about the cock you’re using to perform the cross with, is he your main stud cock or a son of, or are you mating her with a couple of quality cocks from different generations, selecting the best performed and going forward from that point.
The method of selecting half the young hens bred in a round and testing them in the stock box before they are flown is probably perceived by some as a huge gamble, but as we know a well performed bird is not always a guarantee of a good producer, all we know is that on paper, it has acquired the average of the performance genes of the family.
Successfully passing them on to progeny is one set of qualities, increasing the average performance of the family group is another, so once the so called family performance bell curve has been improved and maintained, is this then the stage of pre-potency ? What are your thoughts ?
Breeding for Stock only ….. Contrary to the western method of not using hens until they’ve had the tits flown off them, I’m interested in AK’s method of selection for some stock using their technique of “Paerk” ? or birds selected from a well bred family on their phenotype only.
In these days of increased BOP’s, if one knows the path of blood derivation in their family then technically it’s just as calculated a gamble as flying your birds, the odds are even, well down here in Aus they are, what are your thoughts and experiences on this, have you backed your selection skills and made such a decision ?
One more question, Nino … over the last decade the Canadian Tipplers have performed well, but on a performance scale annually what has the increase in performance been in terms of minutes or hours on the wing ?
Regards, Mick.
-----Original Message-----
From: TipplerTalk@yahoogroups. com [mailto:TipplerTalk @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of nino
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 12:25 PM
To: TipplerTalk@yahoogroups. com
Subject: [TT] outcross hen for Mick
Mick,
This is the hen in question, and I do not have a better picture to date. Time will tell what I will get from this journey back to her sire, but hopefully the first round will prove promising. If all goes well and I get a great hen from them that has proven herself in the air, then I will put her back to the original sire to keep purifying her genetic past with more from her grandfather.
As you know, nothing is for sure and it could be a few years for nothing exceptional, but this is breeding with a direction in mind, and one of the reasons it takes years to prove ones position.
Neen
The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments:
birds 052
Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent sending or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your e-mail security settings to determine how attachments are handled.
See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family
check out the rest of the Windows Live™. More than mail–Windows Live™ goes way beyond your inbox. More than messages
See all the ways you can stay connected to friends and family
Send Email
