Hi Leonard, Bill, and John

(I left Steve out because his mail bounces)

In order to facilitate our discussion of top-bar hives, I have
created this discussion list.

It is ours to do with as we wish, at the price of a small, non
obtrusive add the bottom of each message.

In order to prevent the spread of computer vira through this list, I
have swicthed off the ability to attach files to messages sent to
this list.

This is no big loss, as there is both an area for sharing photos and
one for sharing other files. In order to use the group facilities
(other than the list itself), those of you that do not have an Yahoo-
ID should consider getting one - just remember to uncheck all those
boxes that say yes to receiving this and that information.

best regards

Ping.

MAIL LIST:

Steve: Let me know when you can recieve the list and I will stop copying to
you.

I forwarded to steve. Thanks for setting up the list - good idea to kill the
attachments.

If his mail bounces from you please look for "open relay" in the return
message. An open relay allows spammers to use sendmail to send spam
(blindly) to all on the mailserver's list. My company had this problem and I
recieved spam through it until I complained to Earthlink, which then bounced
all mail from that server until it was fixed. (Our system administrator did
not appreciate that as he had told me I should learn to live with spam, but
it was a great motivator for him to fix it as he could not send to anyone at
Earthlink.)

What benefit do I gain by getting a Yahoo ID?

TOPBARS:

I highly recommend adding one or more vertical drops from the bar - I am
using high impact polystyrene strips - 1" (25mm) wide, aligned with the bar
axis. If spaced properly the bees start their comb between the drops and
then embed them.

I moved my hive to a local garden club to help with polination. After moving
I did an inspection. I had not brought my long bread knife to clear
attachments to the side. on one old wooden bar I had more that the usual
attachment and when I lifted the bar the comb tore horizontally exactly at
the transition between honey stores and polen stores. Fortunately there was
no brood on either side so it is now in the freezer ready to help a new
swarm get started. As for the honey - yum, yum! It filled one 8 oz and one
12 oz container with comb and is far superior to store bought.

Leonard.

> From: "PingHansen" <ping@...>
> Reply-To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 07:59:32 -0000
> To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [TopHive] Top-bar hive discussion list
>
> Hi Leonard, Bill, and John
>
> (I left Steve out because his mail bounces)
>
> In order to facilitate our discussion of top-bar hives, I have
> created this discussion list.
>
> It is ours to do with as we wish, at the price of a small, non
> obtrusive add the bottom of each message.
>
> In order to prevent the spread of computer vira through this list, I
> have swicthed off the ability to attach files to messages sent to
> this list.
>
> This is no big loss, as there is both an area for sharing photos and
> one for sharing other files. In order to use the group facilities
> (other than the list itself), those of you that do not have an Yahoo-
> ID should consider getting one - just remember to uncheck all those
> boxes that say yes to receiving this and that information.
>
> best regards
>
> Ping.
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> TopHive-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> The group archive and other pages can be accessed at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopHive
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

At 11:21 13-03-02 -0800, Leonard and Anita Barton wrote:

>What benefit do I gain by getting a Yahoo ID?

You can

a, b, c, d and, e) use the online facilities of the discussion list,
including file and image sharing.


f) personalize many Yahoo settings
g) get a free homepage at GeoCities
h) use Yahoo Messenger
i) a whole lot of other crap ;-)


Ping.

best regards / venlig hilsen

P.H. Rankin Hansen
Mølletoften 45, Gaarslev
DK-7080 Børkop
Danmark

>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 20:31:27 -0500
>Subject: Re: Welcome to the TopHive group
>From: watkin3@...
>
>Thanks, I appreciate you including me,  Does anyone have actuale drawing
>and dimentions of a hive?
>
>Thaks, Bill


Ping.

best regards / venlig hilsen

P.H. Rankin Hansen
Mølletoften 45, Gaarslev
DK-7080 Børkop
Danmark

At 11:21 13-03-02 -0800, Leonard and Anita Barton wrote:

>What benefit do I gain by getting a Yahoo ID?

You can

a, b, c, d and, e) use the online facilities of the discussion list,
including file and image sharing.


f) personalize many Yahoo settings
g) get a free homepage at GeoCities
h) use Yahoo Messenger
i) a whole lot of other crap ;-)


Ping.

best regards / venlig hilsen

P.H. Rankin Hansen
Mølletoften 45, Gaarslev
DK-7080 Børkop
Danmark

>Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 20:31:27 -0500
>Subject: Re: Welcome to the TopHive group
>From: watkin3@...
>
>Thanks, I appreciate you including me,  Does anyone have actuale drawing
>and dimentions of a hive?
>
>Thaks, Bill


Ping.

best regards / venlig hilsen

P.H. Rankin Hansen
Mølletoften 45, Gaarslev
DK-7080 Børkop
Danmark

Ping,
I'm having a devil of a time getting in to the group.  Yahoo says they
have sent me a confirmation number via email but they have not so I can't
"verify" my email or whatever.  I'll keep trying.  Interesting to note
that there is a Buckfast Bee group also.  Great bees if you haven't
heard.

Bill

At 21:40 26-03-02 -0500, watkin3@... wrote:
>Yahoo says they have sent me a confirmation number via email

I signed you up directly for the group, so no confirmation necessary there.
the Yahoo-ID is another thing. You have to go to the groups homepage at
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/tophive.

To the right, above the blue bar, there is a link to sign up for yahoo. You
usually get a message that you simply have to reply to. It has been a while
(years) since I signed up, so I cannot really remember exactly how it goes.


Ping.

best regards / venlig hilsen

P.H. Rankin Hansen
Mølletoften 45, Gaarslev
DK-7080 Børkop
Danmark

Ping: Third try - if this got in previously, delete it
>
>> Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 20:31:27 -0500
...
>> Thanks, I appreciate you including me,  Does anyone have actuale drawing
>> and dimentions of a hive?
>>
>> Thaks, Bill
>
>

Greetings all:

A week ago I moved my bees out to a garden club as they were inclined to
sting my wife without provocation. They continued this behavior at the new
site (I should have placed them in the center of the undeveloped space
rather than near one garden) so I am moving them back. I am quite happy with
population growth and honey production and do not wish to requeen at this
time.

I've been busy preparing an enclosed beeyard 14' x 16' in a corner of my
back yard and moved my bees back last evening. There was some confusion
today - about 200 bees around the old hive location as they had only been
out a week, but they all eventually found their way home.

Hive #4 design and construction will start this week as the bees are running
out of room in my 38" long equalateral triangle interior (22 inch interior
space on bar). This will be longer than usual while the published design
will be the longest practical interior length consistant with material sizes
(over 45 inches). (I have found that excess interior length is needed to
give working space as the combs are inspected.) The CK4 will have a
trapezoidal interior space. Materials will include two sheets of poly
(optionally one black and one white), cardboard box material for insulation,
1 by 12 pine board stock, and 2 by 4 redwood, cedar, or cyprus for legs,
some 8 mesh screen and one styreen light diffuser. This new hive will
incorporate all learned to date and will be the initial published hive with
dimensions and step by step photos.

We will probably want to also design a horizontal hive that uses standard
frames. Perhaps Ping could lead this effort?

Ping: What are the standard metric dimensions of corrugated polypropyline
sheets approximately 4' by 8' (121.35 cm x 242.70 cm) - would this be 125 x
250 or 100 x 200 or other?

Steve: Can you furnish more info on your ventilated attic idea?

Best wishes,

Leonard

At 18:51 19-03-02 -0800, Leonard and Anita at AT&T BI wrote:
>We will probably want to also design a horizontal hive that uses standard
>frames. Perhaps Ping could lead this effort?

There was an excellent article in ABJ  about this subject last year. I
think it was called "the long hive".

I have based my thoughts on that construction, while adapting it to the
Danish climate and the arrival of the various mites, by using a detachable
screened bottom with a slide-in bottom board and side walls built on a
skeleton of 2 by 1½ with 1/4" ply on the outer side and 3.2 mm (1/8")
oil-herdened masonit on the inside. The space between the outer and inner
skins is filled with insulation - styropor being the easiest.

I did want to using Langstroth, but the rest of my equipment is another
frame size and pesticide-free foundation is next to impossible to come by
in that size, so I will most likely use another frame size.

>Ping: What are the standard metric dimensions of corrugated polypropyline
>sheets approximately 4' by 8' (121.35 cm x 242.70 cm)

The same, roughly 122 by 242 cm, although I never have seen corrugated
polypropylene here


Ping.

best regards / venlig hilsen

P.H. Rankin Hansen
Mølletoften 45, Gaarslev
DK-7080 Børkop
Danmark

Note to list - see Steve's new hive at "http://www.xscd.com/tbh/"

I don't think I can eliminate the longitudinal elements as proposed below,
at least for this go-around.

Greetings Steve:

I am posting this to the list also as we are getting into areas of potential
general interest.

Concerning your concerns about honey flow:

If you have the exotic "star thisle" rangeland pest plant you may find a
substantial flow of green colored honey in late Summer - I have heard that
it is quite tasty. We have that here as an invasive pest from central asia
and we are attempting to control it with an imported wapsp that is specific
to it.

Concerning your hive:

Another thought - the "attic" could contain some kind of shallow western
super with standard frames if you wanted to extract honey. This can be a
very efficient way of producing honey if you use a centrufugal extractor and
reuse the extracted comb. You will need a queen excluder, of course.

My CalKeyan Four:

CK4 is underway (Sat Afternoon) and will be a 22.5 degree (from vertical)
Kenyan with the advanced features. I am hoping that this angle will reduce
or eliminate adhesions. This will incude polystyrene hanging bars
(anti-swarm bars) from lighting fixture grid and the ends will be made from
1x12 pine board, legs from 2x4, inner and outer sides from corugated
polyethylene, and box cardboard insulation. I am attempting to eliminate
longitudinal wood elements at these appear to cause buckling of the
polyethylene when it gets hot, so this next hive will be a stressed skin
design. CK5 will likely include some of your ideas for the attic while
continuing the Tazanian theme and current materials.

For the list:

there is no standard for bar length - I propose a 22 inch interior span on a
24 inch nominal bar (four bars out of an 8 foot piece of stock) - this so
bars can be moved between hives. Any thoughts on this? The Langsroth frames
are sized to fit a 19th century wood soap box (the kind that park and street
orators could stand on).

Following communication with Steve is included for background to the group:

_________

NOTE NEW ISP AND RETURN ADDRESS (elgeebee@...) - earthlink dies on Apr
18th.

Greetings:

This looks good. I'll link to your site.

What changes would you make on the next one?

I requeened last Saturday with a non-virgin Russian (a black bee) from Tabor
(honeybeegenetics.com). Suposedly resistant to varroa due to grooming
behavior. PETA is right - honey is not vegan! (My neighbor crushed the old
queen on the new queen cage.)

I'll start CK4 on Sunday. My bees are running out of room!

Leonard.

_________ ALSO

Greetings Steve:

A couple of things I noticed while looking at the pictures.

It appears that you have no partition to regulate the volume of the hive.
Reducing the volume can help a small number of bees keep warm, important
when starting from a small swarm or pakaged bees (which will loose
population initially). (I assume  that even in this season it will get quite
cold at night in your locale.) Also, you will need enough working space when
opening the hive to cut adhesions and some free space to place inspecded
bars, so it is a good idea to have some partitioned free space, even with a
full hive.

Although the queen is suposed to keep brood near the entrance mine layed
brood far to the back (probably due to lack of free comb in the brood
region). To prevent this I included an excluder partition and add empty bars
on each side of the brood region. In your case, the exclusion would also
have to extend above the  bar into the top gallery.

Good luck with your bees!

Leonard.

_________

Leonard.

> From: Steve Doonan <xscd@...>
> Reply-To: xscd@...
> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 12:36:19 -0600
> To: Leonard and Anita at AT&T BI <landabee@...>
> Subject: Re: TBH
>
> On Friday 12 April 2002 07:58 pm, Leonard and Anita at AT&T BI wrote:
>> Greetings Steve:
>>
>> Another way to keep them warm would be to add an inner top cover over the
>> upper screen. The partition could extend above the top line of bars to
>> extend to the screen.
>>
>
> ---
>
> Hello Leonard--
>
> Thank you for your suggestion. I had planned for variable
> ventilation by placing a piece of plywood inside the
> "attic" (ventilation chamber) of the hive, directly
> on top of the divider board. That way I could cover or
> uncover as much of the ventilation screen as I wanted,
> depending on the weather. When it's cold I'll probably
> close it down almost all the way to limit heat loss
> from the bee cluster.
>
> We're going to make a movable false wall, as you suggested,
> to place in the hive to increase or decrease the
> living space of the bees, and to give me some room to
> work (removing attached comb, etc.). My only fear now
> is that the hive body may not be big enough for a good
> sized colony of bees. However, there is not much honey
> flow in this region I don't think (because it is hot
> and dry--usually less than 13 inches of rain per year),
> so the bees may not need any more space than the hive
> provides.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Steve

Greetings Top Bar Group:

CK4 is well under way. This is a 22.5 degree (from vertical) with 48 inch
interior length (my bees need more room in both dimensions). I hope the
steeper angle will reduce adhesions. I have designed a cutting plan that
will use one 2x12 inch 8ft long for the ends, and one 2x4 inch 10ft long for
the legs. The sides are built with a 19 by 48 inch frame of 1x2 stock and
corrugated polyethyline (e.g., "Coroplast(TM)") as an inner and outer liner
with corrugated box paper as insulation. The poly is stapledto the frame.

This hive will include polystyrene lighting grid as anti-swarm hangers.

The outer hull is complete, including entrance and fanning draft slots in
one end. I'll staple in the bottom screen tomorrow. The legs follow, which
will then enable the hive to be set up for adding the bottom screen,
insulation and inner liner.

I am making a step-by step construction web site with pictures. This can be
made available immediatly if anyone wants to start constructon.

My mites appear under control using only cultural methods (drone excision),
and my new queen (a black Russian) is suposed to be mite resistant due to
grooming.

Best wishes to all,

Leonard.

Greetings to the group:

Please see "http://www.ccdemo.info/GardenBees/CK4/CK4Construction.html",
also acessible from the GardenBees page

There will be some additional material posted this week as the hive is
completed, but there is currently sufficient information for an experienced
person to complete the hive.

Your review and commentary will be appreciated.

Leonard.

Hello all--

I recently redesigned the "divider board" that goes between the
hive body and the ventilated "attic" of my first homemade
Tanzanian (straight-sided) top bar hive. Took a couple new
photos and updated my webpage at:

http://www.xscd.com/tbh/

This is my first experience with a top bar hive, and I like it so
far. The bees seem to like the hive also, and although the days
here in New Mexico are in the 80s and 90s now (late May), the
nights at this altitude (4,050 ft.) are typically about 30 degrees
cooler (upper 40s to lower 60s). However, the bees seem to
like the ventilated aspect of the hive. They cluster inside the hive
when it is cool (I can observe them by removing the sliding
board beneath the 1/8th-inch mesh mite screen and looking
up into the hive from beneath), but they do very little fanning at
the hottest times of the day. So far I think the ventilation is
a good idea, and the "attic" also provides a convenient area
to place jars of sugar syrup to feed the bees inside, without
the supposedly robber-prone use of lower entrance "boardman"
feeders.

The thing I personally fear the most in a hive, aside from getting
way too hot, is to be both cold AND wet inside which I'm sure
promotes disease, and I'm sure
the ventilated attic will greatly reduce the moisture inside the
hive and will help condense the nectar the bees gather as
the warm moist air rises and escapes from the ventilation holes
in the attic.

The bees have loved the thousands of tiny blooms on our
asparagus, and have been gathering pollen and nectar very
vigorously from them. Now that the asparagus is almost done
blooming, the yellow sweet clover that lines the sides of
the roads is coming into bloom.

Best wishes,

Steve D, New Mexico US


--- previous correspondence between Steve and Leonard G. Barton below ---
--- Steve's text is double-quoted (> >), Leonard's is single-quoted (> ) ---

> > I also wish I knew how to use a bee brush without making the bees
> > angry. Perhaps it is better to brush firmly and smoothly rather than
> > with short gentle strokes.
>
> It is important not to "roll" the bees. If you take them off individually
> you can get much more control. I just place the brush tip next to the bee
> at about a 45 degree angle to the surface and flick the bee into the air.
> This lifts the bee, rather than pushing across the surface.
>
> > How are your bees doing? Is there a good honey flow now? Here in
> > New Mexico we have had less than a half inch of rain this year so
> > far (WAY below normal) so I was afraid the bees would have nothing
> > to gather, but they are finding a surprising amount of both pollen and
> > nectar.
>
> We have had a good flow - my neighbor with langsroths fills a drawn super
> in a week or so. There is always something blooming here until mid Summer
> with another flow in the Fall.
>
> I was planning on taking honey this weekend but we have had an unseasonable
> cold wet storm (this may actually be a symptom of global warming - central
> California is predicted to be cool and wet under some scenarios). I'll let
> the bees refill the combs and will pull two or three bars. The first part
> of the hive was used for polen stores but this has been cleaned out and is
> now used for honey stores.
>
> I will also need to do a mite check on the drone brood - I saw one badly
> damaged drone ejected.
>
> My new drones are very black like their mother while the new workers now do
> not have that Italian mix appearance (two and a half black stripe on
> translucent amber), but are more like Yugoslavians (two gray-yellow stripe
> and two brown stripe on black, with a black tail, some variation toward
> more black). They are be out working even in our cool, windy dampness. It
> remains to be seen how they will handle dry heat.
>
> When it is cool the bees fan in the twilight and evening - I suspect that
> it is the increased relative humidity with the cooling that they are
> responding to. There has not been an opportunity to test under hot
> conditions. I need to see if they are using my fanning zone with its heat
> siphon.
>
> I will build one more CalKenan about 8 inches longer using the same design
> and then will try a tanzanian following your model. I will probably use
> sides on the brood frames with a dowel across the bottom (per Jackson). The
> attic will be expanded to take standard supers with Perco frames (this is
> plastic foundation with integral frame). My neighbor uses these and they
> look fine for honey supers.
>
> I hope to get some swarms this year to start a second hive. I now have a
> fenced in beeyard that will have room for three or four hives after I
> remove another garden shed. I'd like to get enough honey to make mead.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Leonard

Hello Leonard, all--

Leonard, I have a question regarding the use of a movable false
wall to place at the rear of the hive body, which you use with your
CalKenyan top bar hives.

I like the idea and understand and agree with the reasons you give
for having one, but there is one difficulty regarding them that I have
been wrestling with.

I made a movable false wall for my straight-sided top bar hive, from
3/16" masonite with a half-bee-space (3/16") shim glued to the front
top of it to both hang it by (the shim protrudes from either side at
the top, allowing me to hang the wall just as I would a top bar or
frame) and to provide the extra half bee space that is necessary
to space it from the top bar just in front of it, toward the front of the
hive.

I also cut a piece of wood to place behind the false wall, to lay across
the top of the hive body and to cover the gap caused by the removal of the
back-most top bar.

Now when I want to open the hive and work with the bees, I can remove
the false wall and have a little space to work with, to pry the top bars apart
and lift a top bar with comb from the hive as I work forward from the
back. (The bees haven't built comb that far back yet, but I'm sure they
will in time.)

But what bothers me about the false wall is the space behind it. I can't
decide whether it is better for the bees to not be able to get into that
space at all, so that they don't build comb in that space, or whether
there may be some way to allow the bees access to that space to
keep it free from cockroaches, moths and other insects that might
otherwise want to take up residence there. I don't like the idea of a
space that the bees can't get into, but which other insects and
pests can.

I have thought of no suitable way to both allow the bees to roam in
that space behind the false wall, but to prevent them from building comb
there. Right now the false wall hangs from top to bottom and grazes the
hardware cloth of the screened bottom board. If a bee or bees did happen to
get behind the wall, they would probably not be able to get back into the main
part of the hive and would probably die behind the wall. On the other hand,
the other day when I opened the hive there were no bees behind the false
wall, but there was a cockroach and some ants.

I'm wondering if there might be some way to accomplish all of the following:
a) reserve some extra space for the beekeeper to easily work the hive;
b) allow the bees to roam that extra space to keep it free of pests;
c) prevent the bees from building comb in that space and using it as part
     of their main living chamber.

Some of those ideas seem mutually exclusive. I HAVE figured out how to
keep from trapping bees behind the false wall after I work the hive, when
I'm closing the hive back up. Since my false wall is a thin piece of masonite,
I place it in contact with the inside back wall of the hive and slowly
slide it downward until it contacts the screen of the bottom board. That forces
any bees that may have been walking over the inside of the back of the
hive downward and then forward. Then I gently push the false wall forward
until it contacts the adjacent top bar, watching and being careful to keep
the bees away from the extra space (as much as I can). Then I place the
extra wooden shim behind the false wall across the top of the hive body which
seals it from the bees (but not other insect pests).

Anyway, it seems to work OK for now, but I'm wondering if there might be
a better way to accomplish these goals, a different design or something.
I'm going to continue to try to think creatively about this particular problem
and see what might occur to me, but so far all my ideas have had
flaws from a practical standpoint. One of my ideas was to work with the piece
of wood that lays across the top of the hive body behind the false wall, and cut
many pieces of masonite to glue to that piece of wood, crosswise, hanging from
that piece of wood, with only a bee space between them and a bee space at
the bottom between the hanging strips and the screen of the bottom board.
Then I would cut a notch (3/8" x 3/4") at the top (like I did with all my top
bars--pictures at http://www.xscd.com/tbh/ ) so that the bees could enter
and exit the space by way of that notch and across the other top bars,
beneath the divider board that separates the main hive body from the
"attic."

Hopefully the hanging masonite strips, with only a bee space separating
each one, would discourage the bees from building comb in that space but
would still allow them to patrol that space to keep away invading pests.

But this idea seemed overly complicated, and I couldn't rid myself of the
feeling that there was a flaw in that design or my reasoning regarding it.

Anyway, best wishes all,

Steve D
New Mexico US

Greetings All:

(Response to Steve's concerns about access to space behind the adjustable
wall.)

Leave an access for bees down low (in my hive the wall only extends to the
hanging ("anti-swarm") grid. The bees can (and do) access the space freely.
By their nature, they will not build comb in this region - this is not the
case if they can travel through the wall higher up. Also, you may move the
wall forward so that no more than one undeveloped bar is on the active side
of the wall. This makes it easier to get working room by lifting the unused
bars out which will not be stuck together.

My bees have access to the attic space under the roof via some gaps caused
by sagging plastic bars and could travel over the top to get behind the
wall, and could even build burr comb on the roof, but as they have free
space for comb development they are not inclined this (even though bees are
suposed to put honey stores high in the hive). The bees have sealed up
excess inter-bar gaps but still maintain passages and some bees (nurse
bees?) hang out on the top of the bars. I'll post some pictures next week.

Steve: What are the interior dimensions of your hive and how many bars are
there?

Best wishes,

Leonard.

In order to examine a bar of comb well it is necessary to get the
bees off the comb. It seems that every beekeeper has his or
her favorite technique for doing this.

In my experience, using a bee brush makes
the bees angry. Leonard suggested:

> > It is important not to "roll" the bees. If you take them off individually
> > you can get much more control. I just place the brush tip next to the bee
> > at about a 45 degree angle to the surface and flick the bee into the air.
> > This lifts the bee, rather than pushing across the surface.

That sounds like good advice, and in my continuing search on the Internet
regarding this subject I discovered two other techniques that are
highly recommended, though neither use the ubiquitous bee brush.

Technique A:
Pluck or cut a shock of grass, tie the thicker ends into a bundle, and use that
to brush the bees. The beekeeper that suggested this idea said that he can
use considerable force with this technique and still the bees do not get angry.
He believes that the fact that the material he uses is fresh vegetable matter,
something the bees are very familiar with (perhaps they smell it or are
comfortable
with its texture), is what makes this method of brushing the bees preferable to
using brushes with mineral (plastic) or animal bristles.

Technique B:
Use a large feather--a turkey feather, goose feather, etc.--to brush the bees
from
the comb. The feather is soft and gentle yet effective, and the bees cannot get
tangled within the filaments as they can with regular commercial bee brushes.

Both of these ideas sound great to me. I found a large turkey feather and plan
to use it the next time I open the hive, to see whether it works well. I like
Leonard's
suggestion about how to use a bee brush too, but I feel rather clumsy using a
brush and don't like the idea of making the bees angry while I learn the proper
technique. Of course the grass and feather ideas may not work that well either
until one develops a good technique, but I guess I will try and see how it works
out.

Best wishes all,

Steve

Hello all,

Thank you Leonard for your suggestions and the interesting information
below. I will cut my movable wall a little shorter from top to bottom (leaving
a 3/8-inch bee space at the bottom between it and the screen of the hive
base)  so that the bees can get under it to patrol the area behind it.

I will also move the wall toward the front of the hive, leaving just one or
two yet undrawn top bars between it and the bars the bees have
already drawn comb on.

I am enjoying watching my bees and how they use the hive.
It has flaws, but I am reasonably satisfied with it as my first attempt
at designing and building a hive (with the help of a good woodworker friend)
and it has been a fun project.

I need to get apistan strips and menthol I guess. The last time I kept bees
(22 years ago) varroa and tracheal mites were irrelevant in the U.S.

I also bought a hatless ("monk's hood" type) veil and a smoker, although
I haven't had to use either of them yet. Regarding smoke, I would prefer
not to use it because I believe it makes the bees panic, rushing to gorge
themselves in case they have to flee from a burning hive. But one thing
I HAVE learned is that when smoke is used, it should be used extremely
sparingly (heavy doses seems to do real harm to bees as it does to humans,
and can also make them very angry).

Years ago I spent a little time with the state beekeeper in Texas, a very
likeable and practical man. Instead of a smoker he just took a pack of
cigarettes with him to the bee yard. He didn't normally smoke; he just
allowed the cigarette to smolder, in his mouth or placed on a rock or
some other object, and if he thought a little smoke was necessary
while working the bees he would suck shallowly on the cigarette and
blow the tiniest puffs where he wanted them, and it was very
effective.

That really impressed me, but since I am an ex-smoker with a real
weakness for cigarettes, I decided to buy a smoker instead and just
use it conservatively if need be.

I remember reading many years ago that Lorenzo Langstroth, the
generally regarded discoverer of the bee space and inventor of the
modern standard frame hive, preferred to use instead of smoke, a
container filled with sugar solution flavored with mint that he could
sprinkle over the bees to keep them happily occupied while he
examined and worked with the hive.

Best wishes all,

Steve
http://www.xscd.com/tbh/


--- --- previous correspondence below --- ---

On Tuesday 28 May 2002 17:38, Leonard and Anita at AT&T Broadband wrote:
> Greetings All:
>
> (Response to Steve's concerns about access to space behind the adjustable
> wall.)
>
> Leave an access for bees down low (in my hive the wall only extends to the
> hanging ("anti-swarm") grid. The bees can (and do) access the space freely.
> By their nature, they will not build comb in this region - this is not the
> case if they can travel through the wall higher up. Also, you may move the
> wall forward so that no more than one undeveloped bar is on the active side
> of the wall. This makes it easier to get working room by lifting the unused
> bars out which will not be stuck together.

Leonard asked:
>
> Steve: What are the interior dimensions of your hive and how many bars are
> there?
>
---

Hello Leonard, all--

I think my top bar hive is actually kind of small. The dimensions of the
interior
cavity of the hive body (not with the ventilated attic) are:

35.25 inches depth (front to back)
11.5 inches height (to bottom surface of top bars)
17 inches width (side to side)

There were 25 top bars in my hive, but I took one out and replaced it with a
movable wall and a shim. Each top bar is 1 3/8 inches wide, to allow for a
fully drawn comb down the middle line plus half a bee space on either side.

My previous experience in beekeeping was with several standard Langstroth
hives. Only in recent years did I learn of the top bar hive and became
fascinated
with it. Most of the references I read suggested space for 30 top bars in a TBH,
and many suggested dimensions so that standard Langstroth supers could be
placed on top of the hive during good honey flows.

But I live in a desert and was doubtful that the honey flow would be plentiful
enough
to support a large hive. That and the fact that I am a thin, kind of small
person made
me decide to try a slightly scaled down hive that I thought I could manage, as
well
as one that I felt might be appropriate to our harsh dry climate. I don't yet
know
whether there will be even enough nectar gathered to support the colony itself,
much less a surplus that I can harvest. My interest was and is more in the
nature of a hobby and an enjoyment of the bees and their activities.

However, I hope that the honey flow around here (eastern New Mexico dry
grasslands, where from January to now (end of May) we have had less than
1/2 inch of rain this year!) will be sufficient enough for me to harvest at
least
a little honey, even if I have to feed the bees to make up for what I harvest.

---

A stupid beginner beekeeper (me) story
---------------------------------------------------

I was thinking some more today about smoking the bees while working a
hive. I remember when I got my first smoker I loved the ingenious little device.
I stuffed it and stoked it until hot sparks shot from the opening.

I then puffed thick billows of smoke into and around the hive, the hot
smoker close to the bees as if to warn them to stay away.
MAN did the bees get angry. Rather than rushing to gorge themselves
in preparation for possible flight, they flew out of the hive immediately
and began to buzz angrily around me. I was stung several dozen times
(despite protective gear, the bees found their way inside my shirt and
up into my veil). I ran  to the house, the bees in angry pursuit. My
horrified brother and sister, who had been observing me from
the safety of the window inside the house, rushed to lock the back door.
They refused to unlock it until I promised to give them 30 seconds
or so to leave the house by the front door.

As soon as I heard the front door slam I rushed inside and down the hall
to my bedroom, slammed the door behind me and sat on the bed feeling
very sick and faint. I passed out, and when became conscious again there
was a little group of bees at an upper corner of the window trying to get out.
I went to the bathroom and my swollen face in the mirror would have been
comical if it weren't so sore.

Anyway, I learned that the best use of smoke is to be very sparing
with it. The smoke should be THIN and wispy and COOL, and the
smoker should not be held too close to the hive or to the bees where
the smoke could be so dense it could harm the bees or the air from
the mouth of the smoker so hot it might burn the bees or their wings.
All that is necessary is the merest whiff of smoke to get the bees
to run down into  the hive body to begin to gorge themselves
with honey.

I wish I had already known that. But a bee smoker is so efficient at
creating dense clouds of smoke that it almost begs one to use it at its
maximum potential, which is WAY too much.

---

Greetings All:

Steve wrote:

>
> I need to get apistan strips and menthol I guess. The last time I kept bees
> (22 years ago) varroa and tracheal mites were irrelevant in the U.S.
>
VARROA MITES:

I have had my bees now for 8 months, with endemic varroa and they are still
healthy. Apistan is not recommended for top bar hives as it is less
practical to seasonaly separate the honey frames from the brood frames.

Sample the drone brood. Use a multi-needle cappings scratcher to dig out
capped drone brood or simply cut out the comb for later inspection. I have
had up to an average of one mite per drone (some none, some more, up to 3 or
4). Cutting out the drone capped brood agressively reduced the mites. I
stoped cutting out brood after moving to the 30 degree hive and sampling
reveals almost no mites in brood, although there are some as I see damaged
wing workers and drones and some mite fall on the bottom  board. I do have a
lot more drones, so destroying drone brood will improve the economy of the
hive if you desire, even if not needed for mite control. At present I have
achived varroa mite control without chemicals and can step up the excision
if shown to  be required by sampling.

TRACHEAL MITES:

I have not treated for tracheal  mites. The symptoms are said to be large
numbers of crawling bees (which I did see up to several dozen a day when the
hive was young). The organic method of treatment is to use baker's sugar
(not powderd, which contains starch) in Crisco as patties on top  of the
bars.  The bees clean up the suger and  get coated with the Crisco. The
Crisco smells to the tracheal mites the same as a newly emerged bee, which
the mite must infect to complete its  reproductive cycle. As all bees now
smell like newly emerged bees this interferes with the cycle. The  bees are
adversly affected by physical congestion in the trachea, so breeders are
attempting to breed resistan bees with larger tracheas. Conformation of
tracheal mites requires microscopic disection and can be done by your ag
department - just drop the bees in alcohol.

Greetings All:

(Haven't heard from Ping - how are things going in Denmark?)

SMOKE:

I agree with Steve that minimal smoke is the best, mainly because I do not
like smokey honey, which I have had from other beekeeper's hives.

When my hive was new I have done complete inspection without smoke for the
first couple of months.

If you are working in an area where fire is a danger you can use "liquid
smoke" (a beekeeping product) in a water spray. This is also much less
hassle than lighting a smoker (I have not tried it but have heard that it
gives good results).

HIVE VOLUME:

Steve wrote:

> I think my top bar hive is actually kind of small. The dimensions of the
> interior
> cavity of the hive body (not with the ventilated attic) are:
>
> 35.25 inches depth (front to back)
> 11.5 inches height (to bottom surface of top bars)
> 17 inches width (side to side)
>
> There were 25 top bars in my hive, but I took one out and replaced it with a
> movable wall and a shim. Each top bar is 1 3/8 inches wide, to allow for a
> fully drawn comb down the middle line plus half a bee space on either side.
>

Steve's hive sounds a bit tight for a strong and mature hive. I am now up to
48 inches long with 22 inch internal bar exposure at 22 degree sides with
15.5 inch depth to the hanging grid, 9 inch across the grid and 24 bars
active, room for three more. One of the bars has partial double comb and
must be replaced. Full buildout with 27 bars will give about 15 * (22 - (9 /
2)) * 27 / (12 * 12) = 49 square feet of comb. Current use at 24 bars with
some not fully complete, one partially doubled, one 30% built, one unfilled
gives about 49 * 22 / 27  = 40 sf. Steves has a maximum of 11 * 17 * 24 /
(12 * 12) = 31 sf, about 75% of my present use and 63% my maximum capacity.

AVAILABL NECTAR

As far as the amount of nectar in the area, statics in Egypt showed that
that area amount of honey was limited by the amount of nectar - as hives
were added the total honey stayed constant. As there are probably not many
beekeepers in Steve's area, this will may not be the limiting factor (it
realy depends on the feral bee population). For the first year, I suggest
that you just take a small amount of honey to enjoy the taste and to get the
anti-alergic benefits of the local honey ingestion. I do not know if the
bees store sugar feed in the honey stores - there should be some floresent
tagging method to determine this and it would make a good home science
project.

SUPERSEDURE AND AHB:

There is some concern in my area that purchased queens may tend to be
quickly superceded. This could be a serious problem in locals with AHB
(Africanized Honey Bees). For Steve, who is close to such an area, I would
recommend inspecting regularly and finding the queen. If superceeded,
replace with a purchaced queen (a beekeeper in San Diego was killed by
africanized bees from his own managed hive some years ago).

GENE SEQUENCING:

Some recent very good news is that now that the human genome project is
complete that one of the new sequence projects will be the honey bee. What
we need to manage AHB is a ferral bee that swarms frequently, breeds
agressively, and is not otherwise dangerous, and sequencing may help to
create such a bee. (How about a cross between the africanized bee and the
Australian stingless bee?)

Best wishes to all,

Leonard

At 18:32 29-05-02 -0700, Leonard and Anita at AT&T Broadband wrote:
>(Haven't heard from Ping - how are things going in Denmark?)

Extremely busy. I expanded last year and time sort of slipped slipped away,
so I'm big time short of equipment. I'm fighting to keep ahead of the bees
in order to keep them from swarming. Just finished building 10 supers and
threading 100 frames. Now I have to build 20 supers more and another 200
frames from scratch. With the first 100 frames I used hammer and nails, but
now I bought me a stapler.

I also have to extract the honey from rape before it crystallizes.

Looking forward to getting my TBH's into operation. ETA is some time in July.


Ping.

best regards / venlig hilsen

P.H. Rankin Hansen
Mølletoften 45, Gaarslev
DK-7080 Børkop
Danmark

>Steve wrote:
> >
> > I need to get apistan strips and menthol I guess. The last time I kept bees
> > (22 years ago) varroa and tracheal mites were irrelevant in the U.S.

Both varroa and trancheal mites can be handled with formic acid. Here in DK
we use a mixture of drone brood trapping and fall-treatment with formic
acid. In essence we place a cloth or fiber(whatever), which has been
saturated with a measured amount of formic acid, in the hive and let the
acid evaporate from that. It is very effective against both pests. No
residue in wax or honey, but it may kill a weak queen now and then.

Recommended .

Apistan, on the other hand, leaves residue in both wax and even in the
honey. It also bad for the bees' immune system - lowers it. The utterly
perverted and immensely stupid practice of using Terramycin is prohibited here.


Ping.

best regards / venlig hilsen

P.H. Rankin Hansen
Mølletoften 45, Gaarslev
DK-7080 Børkop
Danmark

At 18:32 29-05-02 -0700, Leonard and Anita at AT&T Broadband wrote:
>I agree with Steve that minimal smoke is the best

The best time is late afternoon on a slightly overcast day - especially if
it has been raining a few hours before. Then I can visit my bees - even the
aggressive ones - almost without protection or smoke.

When I use smoke, I use either rotted wood (never resinous) or certain
dried herbs for my smoker. Yes I stoke it plenty to get the fire going, but
then I let it sit for a bit while I suit up.

The reason for those particular smoker combustibles is that they produce
the least amount of toxic fumes while generally smelling good. Resinous
wood produces lots of toxic fumes.

My experience is that when I use a little smoke, I crush less bees. A few
puffs through the entry and then I get my things organized and open the
hive. When I'm finished, I sometimes use a few puffs to drive the bees
down, so I can put things back without crushing any of them - I hate
crushing them.


Ping.

best regards / venlig hilsen

P.H. Rankin Hansen
Mølletoften 45, Gaarslev
DK-7080 Børkop
Danmark

Hi All:

This is in response to Steve's ant killing.

Rather than killing ants it is simple to keep them out of the hive. You only
need to have hive legs (or a stand or low standoff table frame with legs)
that set into shallow open top containers. The these can then be filled with
water (but this may tend to drown drinking bees) or with sand saturated with
clean oil (motor oil is said to work). Ants will also not cross grease,
although I have not found a grease that will not harden with age or run off
in the heat.

I tend my hive daily,  so water is not inconvenient for me - the legs of the
CalKenyan are set into cat food tins. They do need to be kept flushed out
and filled, easy to do if a hose is convenient.

Leonard

Greetings all:

95 degree weather yesterday. Had 2 heavy honey stores break off - they broke
at the top of the stored honey and about an inch below the bar web. For some
reason the bees had removed and not replaced honey from the  very top and
these open empty cells were probably much weaker than the sealed and full
cells. These had about 8 inches vertical of deep sealed honey with extensive
developing shalower comb below being filled. I was planning on taking these
soon anyway but was waiting for more to be sealed.

Also lost two brood frames, but after removing honey mixed with polen stores
I parked the brood on the bottom grid inverted below and touching some
smaller comb bars - it remains to be seen what they will do with this.

It looks like I should put up some shade cloth for the summer and get some
greenery growing to cool the beeyard.

The bars in this large size definitly need an arc of strengthening material.

My next design will be a Tanzanian with 3 sided frames and a dowel across
the bottom following Steve's general design.

Best wishes,

Leonard

Greetings All:

From two full bars of honey store, 40% fully built out and sealed, plus
remnant honey from two brood combs and 4 top bars I obtained 36 fl. oz. of
cold pressed honey and 17 fl. oz. of heat recovered honey from wax for
cooking.

The extraction procedure was messy but I got the kitchen cleaned up to my
wife's satisfaction.

I put out an estimated additional 8 oz within comb remnants for the bees to
clean up, for a total of close to 2 quarts (4.4 liters).

Suprisingly few bees were suffocated by the fall - only a few dozen.

I'll build some more wild comb frames for the brood comb that is sitting on
the hanging grid.

Leonard.

Greetings all.

Now on part 2 of the CK4 construction pages - roof foil insulation, solar
powered vent fans, and comb support loop added to bar.

Leonard.

Howdy y'all,

I'm considering changing my frame size from Norwegian Standard to
Langstroth. This will also allow me to use wider bars on my TBH's (my
intention is to be able to place comb from my TBH's in my normal hives).

What dimensions do you all use for your hives ?


Ping.

best regards / venlig hilsen

P.H. Rankin Hansen
Mølletoften 45, Gaarslev
DK-7080 Børkop
Danmark

Greetings:

For my TBH bars I use 24 inch (2 ft.) overall length with 22 inch interior
exposure and hive inside width at the top. Standard U.S. material length is
8 ft so this is an economical size. With the 22 degree side angle this leads
to rather heavy combs, some of which have broken in hot weather. I have
since improved the roof reflectivity and added power cooling (see the CK4
web pages). The vertical depth (from bar resting line to top of hanging
grid) is 16 inches. Perhaps a shallower hive would be better if not using
reenforcing loops or side bar extensions.

Leonard.


> From: "P.H. Rankin Hansen" <ping@...>
> Reply-To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:22:14 +0200
> To: TopHive@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [TopHive] TBH dimensions
>
> Howdy y'all,
>
> I'm considering changing my frame size from Norwegian Standard to
> Langstroth. This will also allow me to use wider bars on my TBH's (my
> intention is to be able to place comb from my TBH's in my normal hives).
>
> What dimensions do you all use for your hives ?
>
>
> Ping.
>
> best regards / venlig hilsen
>
> P.H. Rankin Hansen
> Mølletoften 45, Gaarslev
> DK-7080 Børkop
> Danmark
>
>
>
>
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