--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "g minnier" <paragem@h...>
wrote:
My Bud is 16 lbs and the vet says that is TOO MUCH - in fact, he is
what she calls "pre-diabetic".
The easiest way I have found to lose weight in a cat is:
1. Remove all carbs from diet. Cats need MEAT
2. Feed small frequent meals
This is the way cats are biologically designed to eat and it will
also help his elevated sugar level.
Wellness and Nature's Variety make canned cat food with no grains.
Adding real meat is also helpful: either raw or lightly cooked.
Kibble is THE biggest contributor to obesity and diabetes in my
eyes. There are no carb free kibbles as it's physically impossible
to form kibble without carbs to hold it together. So if you feed
kibble, go lightly.
Clara was a kibble addict when I adopted her and could have been
described as a football with a tail. A meat-only diet had her
trimmed down in no time. It was painless for both of us.
This summer, I left her with my outlaws while on vacation. I
returned to a *basketball* with a tail who literally doubled in size
in 10 days. I left her food, but they chose to feed her kibble. A
month later, she was once again a lean, mean, fighting machine, once
I replaced her candy with a species appropriate diet.
I have not seen prescription diets work for weight loss. Actually,
I feel they perpetuate the problem. They are full of fiber and will
add greatly to deposits in your litter box. You are much better off
with a species appropriate diet, to reduce intake, and increase
frequency of meals. This boosts metabolism, stabilizes blood sugar,
and maximizes the immune system so Bud can better handle the other
things that are going on.
Good Luck,
Deena
I want to feed my cats more canned food (without grains) but I find that the
premium ones (Wellness, etc) contain "cranberry" etc..for "urinary tract
health." Besides my HCM kitty, Max, One of my other cats is now obese after
being put on a special prescription diet for Calcium Oxalate stones in his
bladder. He had to have surgery to have the stones removed. My understanding
is that acidifying the urine can help create an environment for oxalate
crystals/stones. (at least with cats who have this propensity....my other cats
never got them) Most cats have gotten the other type of crystal (struvite) over
the years, and pet food companies have responded by creating a more acidic PH
and my understanding is that now they are seeing more of the rarer calcium
stones. I can't feed the canned foods I have heard mentioned by the group
because of the acidifying cranberries, etc. When a company makes a claim that
their food helps with "urinary tract health" I am wary, as they basically mean
that the ph of their food is acidic enough to prevent struvite crystals...but,
certain cats, like mine, end up with the other,muich more difficult oxalate
crystal/stone to deal with. Struvite crystals can be dissolved---calcium
oxalate crystals cannot. If they are too large to pass, you end up with
surgery. This is an excert from an article called "The truth about dry cat
food" from Blakkatz: (article written by Michelle Bernard)
http://www.blakkatz.com/dryfood.html
"the current trend towards dry food with urine acidifiers (for urinary tract
health according to pet food manufacturers) can cause metabolic acidosis
resulting in impaired kidney function and mineral imbalance that includes
potassium depletion. Urine that is too acidic provides a good environment for
oxalate crystals to form that can cause urinary obstruction. Sturvite crystals,
associated with an alkaline urinary ph were once the common form of urinary
tract disorder, now calcium oxalate crystals, associated with a more acidic
urinary ph, are more common."
They're talking about dry food here, but I still read the specs on some of the
"premium" canned foods and some of them mention the "urinary tract health"
stuff....
***Wellness" canned food reads: ....."Fresh, whole Cranberries and Blueberries
are added to help maintain proper urinary tract health."
***"Natural Balnace" canned food reads: ...."All formulas contain cranberry
powder as well, which is great for maintaining a healthy urinary tract." (my cat
was on this food when he got calcium stones)
I'm trying to find premium canned food with a balanced ph...but it's hard. Does
anyone know anything about this? Most people don't have this issue, but it's a
tough one. I'm sorry if this is off the subject...
Thanks!
----- Original Message -----
From: Deena
To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 3:45 AM
Subject: [FH] Re: Weight loss
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "g minnier" <paragem@h...>
wrote:
My Bud is 16 lbs and the vet says that is TOO MUCH - in fact, he is
what she calls "pre-diabetic".
The easiest way I have found to lose weight in a cat is:
1. Remove all carbs from diet. Cats need MEAT
2. Feed small frequent meals
This is the way cats are biologically designed to eat and it will
also help his elevated sugar level.
Wellness and Nature's Variety make canned cat food with no grains.
Adding real meat is also helpful: either raw or lightly cooked.
Kibble is THE biggest contributor to obesity and diabetes in my
eyes. There are no carb free kibbles as it's physically impossible
to form kibble without carbs to hold it together. So if you feed
kibble, go lightly.
Clara was a kibble addict when I adopted her and could have been
described as a football with a tail. A meat-only diet had her
trimmed down in no time. It was painless for both of us.
This summer, I left her with my outlaws while on vacation. I
returned to a *basketball* with a tail who literally doubled in size
in 10 days. I left her food, but they chose to feed her kibble. A
month later, she was once again a lean, mean, fighting machine, once
I replaced her candy with a species appropriate diet.
I have not seen prescription diets work for weight loss. Actually,
I feel they perpetuate the problem. They are full of fiber and will
add greatly to deposits in your litter box. You are much better off
with a species appropriate diet, to reduce intake, and increase
frequency of meals. This boosts metabolism, stabilizes blood sugar,
and maximizes the immune system so Bud can better handle the other
things that are going on.
Good Luck,
Deena
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Gwen,
In a message dated 10/31/05 9:57:10 PM, paragem@... writes:
<< My Bud is 16 lbs >>
What does Bud eat (brand, flavor, canned or dry)? The leading contributing
factor to obesity in cats is a dry food diet, which is high in carbohydrate.
Just two excerpts from the links below:
1. From Elizabeth Hodgkins DVM (former director of Hill's Pet Nutrition) at
http://rocquoone.com/diet_and_health.htm:
"Excessive carbohydrate consumption, over time, causes both obesity and
strongly predisposes the cat, an obligatory carnivore, to the metabolic "train
wreak" we know as type II feline diabetes mellitus....Consumption of dry cat
food
causes a very rapid and extreme surge in blood glucose as the predigested
carbohydrate in the food is dissolved and absorbed into the bloodstream
essentially as sugar from the stomach and intestines....Along the way, the
constant high
insulin levels (hyperinsulinemia) cause the cat to experience
hypertriglyceridemia (high triglycerides) and hypercholesterolemia (high
cholesterol), and
obesity results....For now, there is compelling scientific evidence to show that
high carbohydrate diets (essentially all dry cat foods) fed to pet cats on a
continuous and exclusive basis predispose to, or even directly cause, feline
obesity and type II feline diabetes mellitus."
2. From Lisa A. Pierson, DVM at www.catinfo.org:
"Obesity is an extremely common and very serious health problem in cats. For
instance, overweight cats are four times more likely to develop diabetes than
cats that are at an optimal weight. Obligate carnivores are designed to meet
their energy needs with a high protein, moderate fat diet with little to no
carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are minimally used for energy and those that are
not used are converted to and stored as fat. The so-called “light” diets
that
are on the market have targeted the fat content as the nutrient to be
decreased, but in doing so, the pet food manufacturers have increased the grain
fraction, leading to a higher level of carbohydrates. Hence, many overweight
cats
eating these diets are still obese. These "light" products are among the most
species-inappropriate, unhealthy diets available to cat caretakers. Many
caretakers feed very small amounts of these diets hoping that their cat will
lose
weight but feeding a small amount of a diet that is inappropriate for the
species
is NOT the answer!".
<< the vet says that is TOO MUCH - in fact, he
is what she calls "pre-diabetic". >>
See above. A high carbohydrate diet is also the leading contributing factor
to feline diabetes. Cats who are borderline...with a blood glucose of 150-200
mg/dL...are giving us a warning that the pancreas is starting to not function.
Changing the diet to a high-quality, low-carbohdyrate, well-balanced,
moisture-rich, meat-based diet...that is, the diet for which a cat's body was
designed...can restore pancreatic function in most cats.
<< the bad news was the
high sugar. >>
How high? Above 200 mg/dL? Was it a fasting blood sample? If not, how many
hrs was the sample taken after a meal?
<< She says she has seen cats lose weight and stay on one of the
prescription diets and get rid of the diabetes >>
She may have seen that. But there is absolutely no reason to feed any cat a
"prescription" diet, which are uniformly of poor nutritional quality. This is
doubly true for diabetics, who used to be prescribed Hill's w/d...which is a
high-carbohydrate, high-fiber diet that is completely contraindicated for cats,
esp diabetics (it doesn't work well in humans or dogs, either)...precisely b/c
it is high in carbohydrate. Now they are prescribed either Purina DM or
Hill's m/d, both of which may have lower carbohdyrate content than most
commercial
dry foods (13% of calories, as opposed to the usual 20-50%; Innova's new EVO
has 7% of calories from carbohdyrate)...but they have very poor nutritional
quality.
There are several canned commercial products with high nutritional quality
and low carbohydrates. These incl: Wellness, www.oldmotherhubbard.com; Nature's
Variety, www.naturesvariety.com; PetGuard, www.petguard.com; Felidae,
www.canidae.com; Natural Balance, www.naturalbalanceinc.com; Innova,
www.naturapet.com; and Eagle Pack, www.eaglepack.com.
Only the first 2 are grain free in the entire line...and contain usually less
than 5% calories from carbohydrate. The rest contain grains but are generally
under 10%.
<< I need to find a good way
to help him lose a couple of pounds. >>
Cats will achieve and stabilize at a healthy weight for their frames when fed
a species-appropriate diet.
<< Any suggestions will be appreciated. >>
It might be useful to start with feline nutrition. Many of these articles
also contain information about the relationship between diet and
diabetes/obesity. Feeding the high-quality species-appropriate diet that cats
need "magically"
eliminates many common health problems.
1. http://home.earthlink.net/~jacm2/id1.html
2. www.catinfo.org
3. www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm
4. http://rocquoone.com/diet_and_health.htm
5. www.advancepetfood.com.au/nutrition
6. ww.drsfostersmith.com/general.cfm?siteid=0&gid=74&ref=2066&subref=AN
// Rosemary
Hi again...
This is my second post today...sorry for asking so many questions in one
morning!
My vet came over to see Max here at home. This is the first time anyone has
listened to his heart, since when I actually took him to the vet, he couldn't
breathe, and no one could even hear his poor heart. (he just ended up on oxygen,
which is why he can't make anymore vet visits) Anyhow, she didn't hear a
murmer, and thought he was doing okay overall. However, he sounds as if his
nose has wet mucus in it. He makes these odd "upper respiratory" sounds, and
yet no infection seems apparent....no discharge from the eyes or nose. He will
sometimes inhale deeply and swallow, as if he is swallowng some mucus from his
nose. Sometimes he has an actual cough which sounds like a "bronchitis" type
cough, and that alleviates his breathing some. The oddest thing is that
congestion that seems nasal. She listened to him, and thought some of the
noises were emanating from his trachea! She called the whole thing "an unusual
presentation." We decided to up his lasix dose minimally..one and a half 12.5
mg pills in the morning, and one at night. (he was taking one in the morning,
and one at night). I am to try that for a week and let her know if that
congestion that at least APPEARS to come from his upper respiratory tract gets a
bit better. In the meantime, I want to get him on supplements. I mentioned the
"heart discovery" supplement to her which has all sorts of stuff in it,
including carnatine and CoQ10 and she said that would be okay.
http://www.usanimalnutritionals.com/heartdiscovery.html
However, is it better to go with the supplements slowly...as in one at a time to
get him acclamated, or just dose him with all that stuff at one time? The
"Heart Discovery" has 250 mg of carnatine, and 20 mg of CoQ10. (I understand
that those are the most important ones?) Max weighs 15 pounds. I just don't
want to give his body too much too handle all at once...but I don't know if it
would be okay to throw all that into his system at the same time.
Thanks..again....for your help.
Betty
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hey all,
My Alec is doing really well with keeping fluids from backing up in
his lungs but I am afraid it (lasix)is causing him to be constipated.
When he finally relieves himself, he gets very weak and lays down and
pants for a few moments. I read in a cat book that bulk fiber, like
Metamucil, will help without hurting him. Any thoughts? I have bought
some Benefiber that is sugar-free, no-taste, grit free that I can put
in some water for him. I just don't want to do something wrong and
make him more stressed so that he has another episode, as I call them.
Leah and Alec
Betty,
I didn't know any better in the beginning and just gave Pepper everything
(she is also 15 pounds). Fortunately it didn't bother her although
sometimes it could cause a bit of a tummy upset. You may be better giving
them to Max gradually. Since it's a capsule, that's easy to do - just give
part of the capsule in his food. It's very fish smelling.
As for the gulping noises - my Pepper does that all the time. Her
cardiologist said that's from her asthma and not from the heart disease.
She had asthma for several years before she developed heart disease.
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: "Betty Seni" <bmusical@...>
To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 9:14 AM
Subject: [FH] Max vet visit
>
>
> Hi again...
> This is my second post today...sorry for asking so many questions in one
morning!
> My vet came over to see Max here at home. This is the first time anyone
has listened to his heart, since when I actually took him to the vet, he
couldn't breathe, and no one could even hear his poor heart. (he just ended
up on oxygen, which is why he can't make anymore vet visits) Anyhow, she
didn't hear a murmer, and thought he was doing okay overall. However, he
sounds as if his nose has wet mucus in it. He makes these odd "upper
respiratory" sounds, and yet no infection seems apparent....no discharge
from the eyes or nose. He will sometimes inhale deeply and swallow, as if
he is swallowng some mucus from his nose. Sometimes he has an actual cough
which sounds like a "bronchitis" type cough, and that alleviates his
breathing some. The oddest thing is that congestion that seems nasal. She
listened to him, and thought some of the noises were emanating from his
trachea! She called the whole thing "an unusual presentation." We decided
to up his lasix dose minimally..one and
> a half 12.5 mg pills in the morning, and one at night. (he was taking
one in the morning, and one at night). I am to try that for a week and let
her know if that congestion that at least APPEARS to come from his upper
respiratory tract gets a bit better. In the meantime, I want to get him on
supplements. I mentioned the "heart discovery" supplement to her which has
all sorts of stuff in it, including carnatine and CoQ10 and she said that
would be okay.
>
> http://www.usanimalnutritionals.com/heartdiscovery.html
>
> However, is it better to go with the supplements slowly...as in one at a
time to get him acclamated, or just dose him with all that stuff at one
time? The "Heart Discovery" has 250 mg of carnatine, and 20 mg of CoQ10. (I
understand that those are the most important ones?) Max weighs 15 pounds.
I just don't want to give his body too much too handle all at once...but I
don't know if it would be okay to throw all that into his system at the same
time. Thanks..again....for your help.
> Betty
>
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "leahandhercats"
<leahandhercats@y...> wrote: My Alec is doing really well with keeping
fluids from backing up in his lungs but I am afraid it (lasix)is
causing him to be constipated.
Hi Leah,
My favorite for GI issues is slippery elm powder. It comes in
capsules or you can buy bulk and add to food. It tastes "mapley" and
most cats don't mind the taste. It regulates the GI tract, so will
work for both constipation & diarhea. Products which address
either/or situation often go too far the other direction, in my
experience. Plus, slippery elm is highly nutritious. It's the stuff
Washington's army lived on while no food was available at Valley
Forge.
To correct the problem from reoccuring, take a look at his diet and
make sure it's species appropriate. If my cat gets constipated, I
just up her meat and/or intake for a few days.
Deena
Leah,
First, make sure he's drinking enough water. If you feed him dry food,
that's probably a big part of the problem. Cats get a large percentage of
their water from canned food. If he's eating canned, try mixing in a bit of
water.
I buy psyllium husks in bulk from the health food store and add a tiny pinch
into her canned food. You can also get it online
http://www.vitacost.com/SourceNaturalsPsylliumHuskPowder
It's just fiber without anything else and can help get his system moving.
You might also syringe some oil into him to help things slide through better
too. I've seen the vet do that for other animals. Just give him part of a
ml of omega oil or something like that a couple times during the day. If
you don't have omega oil, be careful of what you give him. I wouldn't use
corn oil since so many animals are allergic to corn.
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: "leahandhercats" <leahandhercats@...>
To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 10:39 AM
Subject: [FH] What do I do about a constipated kitty?
> Hey all,
>
> My Alec is doing really well with keeping fluids from backing up in
> his lungs but I am afraid it (lasix)is causing him to be constipated.
> When he finally relieves himself, he gets very weak and lays down and
> pants for a few moments. I read in a cat book that bulk fiber, like
> Metamucil, will help without hurting him. Any thoughts? I have bought
> some Benefiber that is sugar-free, no-taste, grit free that I can put
> in some water for him. I just don't want to do something wrong and
> make him more stressed so that he has another episode, as I call them.
>
> Leah and Alec
>
hi!
i have been looking for home oxygen in case my cat needs it. i have
been looking and im getting a bit confused there are concentrators and
tanks. can someone explain the difference? is getting oxygen hard on
some of the sites i checked they asked for a physicians prescription.
i am sure my vet will be fine with me wanting it for home use. can
they be rented... guess im just a bit intimitaded and consfused on
which to get and how to get it. i also see them on ebay. are they hard
to use? im totally clueless on how to use oxygen as well.
>^..^<
katy & belle
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, savionna@a... wrote:
But there is absolutely no reason to feed any cat a "prescription"
diet, which are uniformly of poor nutritional quality. This is
doubly true for diabetics...
As usual, I agree with Rosemary. With minimal understanding of
feline nutritional requirements and an understanding of what needs
to be tweaked with certain conditions, you can often do better on
your own. If you have the time and willingness to do this.
If not, there IS a line of prescription diets that seems to be based
on science rather than profits: Wysong. I have no financial
connection and will probably always make my own. While not still
perfect, IMO, for those most comfortable with a prescription diet,
it's an option that you should have your vets investigate.
Dr Wysong's "Scientific & Philosophical basis of Rx Diets" paper
does an excellent job at explaining nutritional concepts which few
vets unfortunately don't understand.
http://www.wysong.net/PDFs/introduction.pdf
Feeding food that the cat's body is able & designed to utilize is
the best defense against disease. When cats are fighting other
illnesses, it's even more important. Many of the supplements
recommended for heart kitties, I was able to get into Mr Pepe in
their original form, aka food.
Check out the "Pancreas Size" chart on pg 14. Rats & Mice fed
processed foods have pancreas's that are more than twice the size
(.84 vs .32) as those fed a species appropriate diet. The pancreas
is one of the masters of our immune system and allows us fight
disease. Bigger is not better, since this indicates its working too
hard and is breaking down.
I had a funny dog experience a few weeks ago, which hammered this
home. I took my 4.5 yr old dog in for an ultrasound to check her
reproductive organs. The first thing out of the vets mouth
was "whoa, what a pancreas!" His assistant walks in and he shouts
to her, "check out Buddie's pancreas?" I was afraid to ask what's
wrong with her pancreas - thinking the worse. As dogs age, it
becomes bigger, mushier and less distinct on u/s. Her's jumped off
the screen and looked like a puppy's pancreas. I took her off
kibble at 7 mos and have been feeding her a species appropriate diet
for the past 4 years. Looks like her pancreas hasn't aged since the
switch. Hmmm....
Lisa: It was Dr C who got so excited about Buddie's pancreas. He's
also one of the few vets in the area who doesn't hassle raw
feeders. I hope he made the connection.
Deena
Leah, My Lillie had a consipation issue that really went too far (we
almost lost her), so now her specialist writes me an Rx for Lactulose
and we get it filled at any pharmacy. It is NON-systemic, so it is VERY
SAFE...and probably a good idea for heart kitties because many of these
meds cause constipation. Lillie's a big water drinker too, but it
still happens. It's a cheap liquid that I give her with an oral
syringe 1 ml 2 times a day (with her other meds)...you can play around
with the amount to see what works the best for your cat. The lactulose
has been wonderful...you don't want to have to put a heart kitty under
anesthesia like we had to do, because nothing else would work. Good
luck. :)
I don't know what to say. I never posted to this group, I just always silently
lurked. And
now...my Boogie is gone and I don't really know who to talk to. No one seems to
understand. Two weeks ago today, he lost his battle with HCM. And I don't really
understand what happened. And I think about all the things I should have done.
Maybe
should have posted more to this list. Asked some questions. I don't know.
I had him 14 years. Rescued him as a stray one cold November night in 1991. I
was a
college freshman, so lonely 200 miles away from home without a kitty for the
first time in
my life. We were inseparable from the very beginning. I could hardly bear to be
without
him, so I took him to my classes in my pocket until he got too big. My high
school
boyfriend moved back home, found another girl, but Boogie was always there.
Whenever I
traveled, I took him with me. If he didn't like my dates, we didn't go out
again. I have
suffered from depression for most of my adult life. I spent hours in my bed,
just lying
there holding him, staring into his green-gold eyes. My world has come crashing
down. I
can't imagine life without him. I have six other cats, but it's not the same. He
was my child,
and I'm so lost.
He never was a really hearty eater, but got up to 11 pounds and stayed there for
a long
time. He bore a strong resemblance to a Maine Coon, and I'm sure there was some
in his
background.
The first time I realized something was wrong was in October 2003. I heard a
crash in the
middle of the night, and found him unable to walk, tail dragging. An emergency
trip to the
vet revealed nothing remarkable. The vet thought he had possibly broken his
tail. He
suggested waiting a day or two to see if he improved before sending him out of
town to a
specialist. Surprisingly, he did. We counted our lucky stars. I realize now that
he probably
suffered a small blood clot that resolved itself.
In January 2004, I walked into the bedroom to find him lying flat on the bed,
breathing
heavily. He seemed to be asleep, but his heart was beating fast and he was
breathing as if
he had been running. I called my vet but he was out of town. The vet I was
referred to said
he might have a cold. He suggested bringing him in the next morning. All night,
I held him
in my arms, afraid I would lose him. The next day, the vet gave him amoxicillin
and sent
him home. For two days this went on. By the second morning, he was completely
unresponsive, almost unconscious. I had worked for a vet in high school, had
planned to
be a vet. I had done my research. Hesitant to buck my vet's opinion, but
desperate to save
my baby, I brought him back and suggested that he was in congestive heart
failure. My
regular vet was still out of town, so I begged for a referral to a specialist an
hour away.
By the end of the day, they had confirmed that he had HCM. His heart was
enlarged with a
grade 2 murmur, and the beginning of CRF. He was put on Lasix, and within three
days
was able to come home. He was very weak, but I dutifully gave him his diltiazem
twice a
day (7.5 mg) and he eventually improved. He never regained his appetite and his
weight
fell to 9 pounds, where it stayed until two months ago.
He was scheduled for a repeat echocardiogram, but he was doing so well and it
was so
expensive. I foolishly thought that it would not make a difference knowing if it
wasn't
working. I didn't want to know. Stupid foolish girl. If I had gone for the
checkup, I might
have known that his medicine was not working. Perhaps they could have increased
his
dosage, tried something else. He seemed happy and playful, so I assumed all was
well. I
have a crazy, erratic schedule as a freelance photographer. Sometimes I would
miss his
morning or his evening pill. He was doing so well, I became complacent. Oh God,
how that
stings now.
Over the past six months, eating had been a real struggle. Blood work was
unremarkable.
His BUN and creatine remained borderlevel high (high 30s low 40s). He slept a
lot and
didn't seem to want to jump up on things much, but I thought maybe he was just
getting
arthritis. I took him for a checkup in September and again, bloodwork
unremarkable.
Again, my regular vet was out of town. The young vet who examined him said it
sounded
like he had some fluid in his chest, nothing to worrry about. I mentioned his
HCM, but he
said the fluid didn't concern him. He did mention that his heart sounded very
loud and he
detected a gallop rhythm. He gave me valium to entice him to eat as he had
dropped
dangerously to eight pounds.
The valium worked for a few days, then it was back to a struggle getting him to
eat. I
moved into a new house about two months ago, and he gradually began taking a
turn for
the worse. Every move he made seemed to cause heavy breathing. But when he
rested he
was ok. I kept a close watch and waited for my regular vet to return. On Oct.
10, I called
the vet's office and they said my vet was in, but he was about to go to a
funeral. I told
them my cat was in distress and asked for the referral to the specialist again
(you can only
go with a referral). They said they would call it in. Meanwhile, their office
closed and the
specialist said they never received a call. So we had to wait another night. He
wasn't in
distress, but he clearly wasn't up to his usual self, and he wasn't eating at
all.
The morning of Oct. 11, I called my regular vet again and surprise, surprise, he
was out of
town. So I took Boogie back to the vet where he had been diagnosed with a cold
and just
outright demanded the referral. The specialist that had saved his life before
was no longer
at that clinic, and they no longer handled heart patients. He would be sent to a
new place
--- two hours away to Mississippi State University. I made the long drive
praying he would
live to get there.
Lab work, echo, etc. revealed what I already knew...he was back in congestive
heart failure.
The vet said the echo indicated that parts of his heart had died (I'm not sure
how much...I
got too upset to ask). The vet removed 200ml of fluid from his chest with a
needle. They
put him on Lasix and said they would have to wait to see what happened. He
stayed there
for six days. Every day, by afternoon, he would be back in distress and they
would have to
remove the fluid from his chest again, usually 75-100ml. They upped his
diltiazem to a
stronger once a day dose. They added another heart med. They suggested an herb,
Rutin,
for when he came home.
I brought him in on Tuesday. Because it was so far away, I was going to go see
him on
Thursday. Then they said he would come home Friday, so I just waited. Friday
afternoon, I
was headed out the door to get him when they called and said he was crashing and
they
didn't know why. He couldn't go home. I made four-hour round trip to see him
anyway,
even though I would be allowed only 15 minutes. I was stunned at how awful he
looked.
He was gaunt, even though they told me he had been eating. He was covered in
feces and
urine. His eyes were vacant, and he could barely stand.
He responded to my touch and even purred a little while I was there. I cleaned
him up as
best as I could and promised I would come back the next day with treats. The
next
morning, I returned. He ate some shrimp treats from my hand and seemed a little
better.
He had been taken off the oxygen and made it through Saturday and Sunday without
incident.
Monday they said he could go home. When I arrived at 4:30 p.m. to get him, the
vet said
she was concerned that he had gotten rather depressed and sluggish in the past
hour.
They drained fluids off his chest again (35 ml) and she told me that he would
need to see
his regular vet in three days for another draining. She said the Lasix was just
taking a
while to take effect. His back was turned to me in the carrier, and I was
surprised that he
didn't turn around to greet me, but I was just so happy to be bringing him home.
I patted
his backside and made the drive home.
I was stunned when I took him out of the cage. We got home around 7 p.m. He
stepped
out of the cage and fell down. He was wall-eyed, terrified. He looked drugged. I
called and
the vet tech said he had not been drugged, but that the vet was gone for the
day, and I
should call my regular vet if he was in distress.
He didn't seem in distress, respiration normal, he just seemed very, very out of
it. I
thought perhaps it was just because he hadn't eaten. He wouldn't eat on his own,
so I
mixed a blend of wet food and syringe fed him. I was cheered by the fact that he
took it
well, leaning his head on my shoulder like a baby, looking into my eyes, gently
kneading
my shoulder. God how I treasure that hour now. He fell asleep as I was feeding
him, so I
stopped and carried him to the bathroom, brought a blanket and pillow in and
laid on the
floor beside him.
His respiration increased slightly during the night, but again, nothing too
major --- at
times he barely seemed to be breathing at all. He didn't want to be near me,
which was
odd. He wanted to prop up against the wall. I realize now he was trying to
breathe. Finally,
he settled down and we both fell asleep.
*****Warning, graphic, may upset some *****
About 6 a.m., I had my hand on him when I felt him get up and let out a loud,
very primal,
unearthly scream. Panicked, I grabbed the phone and called the vet. The
answering service
said they would call me back. He let out several more loud meows and then sank
to the
floor, whiffling and sort of blowing out his breath a bit. His legs and his
muzzle were wet. I
called the answering service back and begged for the vet to return my phone
call. About
10-15 minutes had passed. As the vet called, he laid down on his side and
stopped
breathing. Panicked, I begged the vet to come to my house. He told me he
couldn't do that
and informed me that if he didn't SEEM to be breathing and if his heart didn't
SEEM to be
beating, then he was gone.
Angry at the vet's insensitivity and hurting so much, I just put the phone down,
laid my
head on the floor and cried.
And now. Two weeks have passed. I look back at everything that happened, and
think of
all the things I should have done. I'm terrified that I missed the signs of the
fluid filling his
chest, terrified that I allowed him to drown in his own fluids. I see his last
moments, hear
his cries, all day long. The pain doesn't seem to end. I wanted so much to be
with him in
his final hour, but the memory torments me. I would never have let him suffer
for the
world, and yet I truly feel that his last minutes were in pain. I don't
understand how or why
he died. Was it fluid, a heart attack? I don't know what I should have done.
All I know is that I miss my baby so very, very much. Sometimes I wish I could
crawl inside
his grave with him. Life holds so very little meaning now. I just don't know
what to do
anymore.
And I guess...I just wanted to tell you guys because I know you are all
struggling with this
awful disease. And for those silent lurkers out there like me, go to the
checkups. Take the
medicine seriously. It might not help, but at least you won't have to wonder.
Carmen Sisson
P.S. There are pictures of him on my website, including one awful one from the
hospital,
but this is one of my favorites from shortly after he was first diagnosed with
HCM...
http://www.cloudybright.com/304.php
I am extremely sorry about Boogie and feel for you, but one thing you cannot and
should not do is beat yourself up. Boogie would not be anymore alive or happy at
all to see you unhappy. Our babies HATE it when we are sad or upset. Grief is
natural but you are not God and you can only do what you can do. The vet
situation does sound awful and I sincerely hope that you can find some vets that
are much more compassionate and knowledgeable for your other kitties sakes. I'm
just really really sorry but many cats do not even live as long as Boogie did.
My Grant died from cancer this February and he was just 8. I still miss him
terribly. I understand totally the feelings of loss and guilt (I will always
wonder why I did not see signs of Grant's illness sooner of if some of his
behaviours indicted it and I just didn't see) but it doesn't bring him back and
only makes my memories of him sad instead of the happy goofy ones that are
really the memories that keep them alive. So please do not let Boogie die in
your memory by beating yourself up with guilt. Sitdown and write about all the
good things Boogie was and let him really rest, happy and free from pain.
((((Hugs))))
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tinytim, who has a clubfoot, is a grade 1. Cameron is a grade 2. We
go back to the vet in 10 days for another listen and booster shots
for the distemper. Poor little guys...anyone know what the chances
are that they are developing severe HCM like my darling Dexter, given
that they are from the same inbreeding momma and daddy kitties?
Poor little Timmy - he is absolutely adorable and I was so sure would
find a home in a snap because of the clubfoot but now...who knows?
Here are pictures of my precious boys if I may show them off:
Tinytim (3 mos) http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/393964.jpeg
Cameron (3 mos) (ok, he's more annoying than precious)
http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/394114.jpeg
Dexter (8 mos) http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/393382.jpeg
I guess I can start them on supplements under the assumption that
they too have HCM - maybe it will keep it from getting as bad as
their brother's?
Hi All,
I am the very lucky Mum to Rupert, whom I found ~ 11 years ago in
Toronto. After moving to Michigan 9 years ago, we were fortunate to
find a wonderful vet clinic with several specialists. Fortunate,
because three years ago, rather than doing dental work, the vet
recommended an echocardiogram where we learned that Rupert's long-
standing heart murmur was actually HCM.
Since then, my little brave man has been on Atenolol very
successfully.
Complicating matters, over this past summer, he peed on the plastic
draping that contractors had placed over construction work in my
basement. Fearing a UTI, we took Rupert & a sample to the vet. In
addition to treating the basic UTI, our wonderful vet (a different
specialist than the cardiologist who diagnosed HCM), ran bloodwork
and found early stage CRF, which we are treating with 100 ml sub-Q
Normosol every other day. He also gets Slippery Elm Bark for acid
tummy/constipation as well as Tumil-K to maintain his potassium
level.
I am so lucky we found the CRF group, as they have led us here, to
the cardiology group! We'll be 'lurking' in cyberspace, reading and
soaking up knowledge.
Best regards & kitty greetings!
MJ & Rupert & Bimmer (who is 15 yo and currently healthy as a little
bug!)
>^..^<
Hi All,
I am the very lucky Mum to Rupert, whom I found ~ 11 years ago in
Toronto. After moving to Michigan 9 years ago, we were fortunate to
find a wonderful vet clinic with several specialists. Fortunate,
because three years ago, rather than doing dental work, the vet
recommended an echocardiogram where we learned that Rupert's long-
standing heart murmur was actually HCM.
Since then, my little brave man has been on Atenolol very
successfully.
Complicating matters, over this past summer, he peed on the plastic
draping that contractors had placed over construction work in my
basement. Fearing a UTI, we took Rupert & a sample to the vet. In
addition to treating the basic UTI, our wonderful vet (a different
specialist than the cardiologist who diagnosed HCM), ran bloodwork
and found early stage CRF, which we are treating with 100 ml sub-Q
Normosol every other day. He also gets Slippery Elm Bark for acid
tummy/constipation as well as Tumil-K to maintain his potassium
level.
I am so lucky we found the CRF group, as they have led us here, to
the cardiology group! We'll be 'lurking' in cyberspace, reading and
soaking up knowledge.
Best regards & kitty greetings!
MJ & Rupert & Bimmer (who is 15 yo and currently healthy as a little
bug!)
>^..^<
Hi Leah,
I am a new member here (just bumped over from the CRF group,
although my little Rupert has had HCM for three years!). One of the
things that works well for him (and for his brother Bimmer) is
Slippery Elm Bark. I put 1/8 - 1/4 tsp of the bulk powder form in 2
Tablespoons of meat babyfood. It is wonderful for motility:
constipation, acid tummy (calms the vomiting) and as an added bonus
of helping the little guys' coats look & feel wonderful (the ilatter
is not a priority when we're treating such serious conditions, but
it is certainly a nice side effect.
I get Rupert's SEB in bulk at Whole Foods and if there are none
close to you, you can order online. Let me know and I can send you
a few links as options.
Best regards and good wishes to little Alec - hope his constipation
improves soon!
MJ & Rupert & Bimmer
>^..^<
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "leahandhercats"
<leahandhercats@y...> wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> My Alec is doing really well with keeping fluids from backing up
in
> his lungs but I am afraid it (lasix)is causing him to be
constipated.
> When he finally relieves himself, he gets very weak and lays down
and
> pants for a few moments. I read in a cat book that bulk fiber,
like
> Metamucil, will help without hurting him. Any thoughts? I have
bought
> some Benefiber that is sugar-free, no-taste, grit free that I can
put
> in some water for him. I just don't want to do something wrong and
> make him more stressed so that he has another episode, as I call
them.
>
> Leah and Alec
>
MJ,
Hi & welcome to the group. Sorry to hear that your kitty is sick, but it sounds
like he's in good hands!
I can't comment on the CRF but a lot of the cats on the list get supplements
including CoQ10, omega oils and l-carnitine. I'll let someone else comment on
how they work with the CRF.
Best to you and your crew!
Sue
Hi All,
I am the very lucky Mum to Rupert, whom I found ~ 11 years ago in
Toronto. After moving to Michigan 9 years ago, we were fortunate to
find a wonderful vet clinic with several specialists. Fortunate,
because three years ago, rather than doing dental work, the vet
recommended an echocardiogram where we learned that Rupert's long-
standing heart murmur was actually HCM.
Since then, my little brave man has been on Atenolol very
successfully.
Complicating matters, over this past summer, he peed on the plastic
draping that contractors had placed over construction work in my
basement. Fearing a UTI, we took Rupert & a sample to the vet. In
addition to treating the basic UTI, our wonderful vet (a different
specialist than the cardiologist who diagnosed HCM), ran bloodwork
and found early stage CRF, which we are treating with 100 ml sub-Q
Normosol every other day. He also gets Slippery Elm Bark for acid
tummy/constipation as well as Tumil-K to maintain his potassium
level.
I am so lucky we found the CRF group, as they have led us here, to
the cardiology group! We'll be 'lurking' in cyberspace, reading and
soaking up knowledge.
Best regards & kitty greetings!
MJ & Rupert & Bimmer (who is 15 yo and currently healthy as a little
bug!)
>^..^<
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My vet recommended fish oil capsule. Full of omega 3s and vitamin E. Sim
will take it some times. He has been generally constipated all his life for
some reason.
Bridget Bailey (bab0066vpy)
_eBay Store - 0-BridgetsVintageUniqueFinds-0: On Sale, Free Shipping,
Puzzles_ (http://stores.ebay.com/0-BridgetsVintageUniqueFinds-0)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi,
What cute kittens!
Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended on this group
would help improve the health of any cat. They are good all-round
supplements. Personally, I take CoQ10 myself.
I might hesitate to get them shots. Sometimes the vaccinations can affect
the health of a comprimised animal. My girl had vaccinosis from her rabies
shot and required major surgery (twice - I didn't realize what it was the
first time and stupid me - got her another shot two years later).
Does anyone else on the list have an opinion on that?
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: "taloah2000" <lisabee@...>
To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:51 PM
Subject: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too
> Tinytim, who has a clubfoot, is a grade 1. Cameron is a grade 2. We
> go back to the vet in 10 days for another listen and booster shots
> for the distemper. Poor little guys...anyone know what the chances
> are that they are developing severe HCM like my darling Dexter, given
> that they are from the same inbreeding momma and daddy kitties?
>
> Poor little Timmy - he is absolutely adorable and I was so sure would
> find a home in a snap because of the clubfoot but now...who knows?
>
> Here are pictures of my precious boys if I may show them off:
>
> Tinytim (3 mos) http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/393964.jpeg
>
> Cameron (3 mos) (ok, he's more annoying than precious)
> http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/394114.jpeg
>
> Dexter (8 mos) http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/393382.jpeg
>
> I guess I can start them on supplements under the assumption that
> they too have HCM - maybe it will keep it from getting as bad as
> their brother's?
>
>
Hi Katy!
Thank you for the nice welcome message! Too funny
about the kitty signatures! And yes, my family and
friends are getting used to me doing it. In fact, my
parents have only one grandson, but 6 grandcats! LOL
- my two other sisters each have two kitties, so there
is no way my parents can get around it!
Great to hear that little Belle is doing well on
atenolol, too. I get the emulsified version from a
compounding center - they can make it with Tuna
flavour, which helps Rupert take it mixed with his wet
food. How do you give it to Belle? >^..^<
For the testing for CRF, the vet actually did
bloodwork and ran BUN, CR, etc. The BUN for Rupert
had been high two years earlier (for a cardiac
workup), but with the recent results, the CR
(creatinine) was elevated, indicating kidney failure.
The urine test was just for WBC (white blood cell)
count, which indicated a urinary tract infection that
the vet treated with amoxicillin - hot pink cherry
flavor!! Imagine the fun giving 1ml each day to a
kitty? LOL - Rupert was a trooper. The good thing
about the antibiotic, it helped clear his chronic
rhinitis (weepy eyes, sneezing) for a while.
Sending you good kitty karma!
MJ & Rupert & Bimmer
>^..^<
--- Katy van <katy_van@...> wrote:
---------------------------------
i am sad that rupert has hcm but i am happy you found
this group. it is a wonderful group. what test did the
vet do with the urine for CRF do you know? just
curious. my belle is on altenolol as well but so far
that is it. we sign off our signatures the same way:)
i am so bad that when i write friends and family i
usually sign it the same even with the katy & belle
part. lol. most of them think im a little coo coo!
>^..^<
katy & belle
---------------------------------
From: "mjj_007" <mjj_007@...>
To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FH] Introduction: Rupert, 17 years young
with HCM and CRF
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2005 00:05:55 -0000
Hi All,
I am the very lucky Mum to Rupert, whom I found ~ 11
years ago in
Toronto. After moving to Michigan 9 years ago, we
were fortunate to
find a wonderful vet clinic with several specialists.
Fortunate,
because three years ago, rather than doing dental
work, the vet
recommended an echocardiogram where we learned that
Rupert's long-
standing heart murmur was actually HCM.
Since then, my little brave man has been on Atenolol
very
successfully.
Complicating matters, over this past summer, he peed
on the plastic
draping that contractors had placed over construction
work in my
basement. Fearing a UTI, we took Rupert & a sample to
the vet. In
addition to treating the basic UTI, our wonderful vet
(a different
specialist than the cardiologist who diagnosed HCM),
ran bloodwork
and found early stage CRF, which we are treating with
100 ml sub-Q
Normosol every other day. He also gets Slippery Elm
Bark for acid
tummy/constipation as well as Tumil-K to maintain his
potassium
level.
I am so lucky we found the CRF group, as they have led
us here, to
the cardiology group! We'll be 'lurking' in
cyberspace, reading and
soaking up knowledge.
Best regards & kitty greetings!
MJ & Rupert & Bimmer (who is 15 yo and currently
healthy as a little
bug!)
>^..^<
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I 100% agree. There is nothing that can be gained by looking back on what
was. Look towards what will be. Remember that you still have 6 wonderful
babies that need you and need you to be strong.
My heart goes out to you, and believe me, I understand the helpless feeling.
My cat has a ventricular septal defect (a hole in her heart) and there is no
treatment. I would be giving her supplements and feeding a better food but
we barely have money for groceries for ourselves right now. I certainly
wish I could do more, but right now I just can't, and it's not something you
beat yourself up over.
So please remember the times you had with him with joy and keep your chin
up. Eventually it won't hurt quite as bad.
And be sure you snuggle those other kitties, they could use it right now,
and it might be therapeutic for you.
Ruthie and the crew.
IBM: Impersonal Bellicose Magnate
Visit www.ruthieville.com today for your daily dose of me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen" <kchuplis@...>
To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>; "Carmen Sisson" <cksisson@...>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [FH] I lost my Boo.... (really long - may upset some)
>I am extremely sorry about Boogie and feel for you, but one thing you
>cannot and should not do is beat yourself up. Boogie would not be anymore
>alive or happy at all to see you unhappy. Our babies HATE it when we are
>sad or upset. Grief is natural but you are not God and you can only do what
>you can do. The vet situation does sound awful and I sincerely hope that
>you can find some vets that are much more compassionate and knowledgeable
>for your other kitties sakes. I'm just really really sorry but many cats do
>not even live as long as Boogie did. My Grant died from cancer this
>February and he was just 8. I still miss him terribly. I understand totally
>the feelings of loss and guilt (I will always wonder why I did not see
>signs of Grant's illness sooner of if some of his behaviours indicted it
>and I just didn't see) but it doesn't bring him back and only makes my
>memories of him sad instead of the happy goofy ones that are really the
>memories that keep them alive. So please do not let
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Your reply will go to the author of this message. If you feel your reply
> will benefit the entire group, please change the "To:" line to
> feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Sue B <rockii@o...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> What cute kittens!
>
> Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended on
this group
> would help improve the health of any cat. They are good all-round
> supplements. Personally, I take CoQ10 myself.
>
> I might hesitate to get them shots. Sometimes the vaccinations can
affect
> the health of a comprimised animal. My girl had vaccinosis from
her rabies
> shot and required major surgery (twice - I didn't realize what it
was the
> first time and stupid me - got her another shot two years later).
>
> Does anyone else on the list have an opinion on that?
>
>
>
> Sue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "taloah2000" <lisabee@c...>
> To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:51 PM
> Subject: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too
>
>
> > Tinytim, who has a clubfoot, is a grade 1. Cameron is a grade 2.
We
> > go back to the vet in 10 days for another listen and booster shots
> > for the distemper. Poor little guys...anyone know what the chances
> > are that they are developing severe HCM like my darling Dexter,
given
> > that they are from the same inbreeding momma and daddy kitties?
> >
> > Poor little Timmy - he is absolutely adorable and I was so sure
would
> > find a home in a snap because of the clubfoot but now...who knows?
> >
> > Here are pictures of my precious boys if I may show them off:
> >
> > Tinytim (3 mos) http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/393964.jpeg
> >
> > Cameron (3 mos) (ok, he's more annoying than precious)
> > http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/394114.jpeg
> >
> > Dexter (8 mos) http://img.makeupalley.com/0/3/7/4/393382.jpeg
> >
> > I guess I can start them on supplements under the assumption that
> > they too have HCM - maybe it will keep it from getting as bad as
> > their brother's?
> >
> >
>
Thank you Sue...they are all really sweeties although Dexter is my
favorite - he has a Maine Coonish personality.
I have a couple more supplement questions. I understand people are
using DMG for their babies - is anyone using TMG (basically the same
thing except with three methyl groups instead of two, and much
cheaper) instead? And is anyone using the supplement "Missing Link?"
I was thinking it might be easier to mix a proportionate amount of
each of the powdered supplements in with it rather than having to
mash up a new Carnitine (and potentially TMG) every day. Any thoughts
on whether this stuff is truly useful or not?
Thanks!
Lisa (and foster kitties Dexter, Tinytim, and Cameron, and forever
kitty Gracie)
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Sue B <rockii@o...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> What cute kittens!
>
> Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended on
this group
> would help improve the health of any cat. They are good all-round
> supplements. Personally, I take CoQ10 myself.
>
> I might hesitate to get them shots. Sometimes the vaccinations can
affect
> the health of a comprimised animal. My girl had vaccinosis from
her rabies
> shot and required major surgery (twice - I didn't realize what it
was the
> first time and stupid me - got her another shot two years later).
>
> Does anyone else on the list have an opinion on that?
>
>
>
> Sue
>
Lisa,
I never heard of TMG and would love to hear what other people have to say.
I was feeding Missing Link but someone here (Rosemary or Lisa?) mentioned
that it's really not appropriately formulated for cats. The Kelp contains
something that may actually be harmful and there's too many carbohydrates.
My girl is a Maine Coon - I absolutely love her personality -
http://www.magdrl-nj.com/Pepper.html
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: "taloah2000" <lisabee@...>
To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too
> Thank you Sue...they are all really sweeties although Dexter is my
> favorite - he has a Maine Coonish personality.
>
> I have a couple more supplement questions. I understand people are
> using DMG for their babies - is anyone using TMG (basically the same
> thing except with three methyl groups instead of two, and much
> cheaper) instead? And is anyone using the supplement "Missing Link?"
> I was thinking it might be easier to mix a proportionate amount of
> each of the powdered supplements in with it rather than having to
> mash up a new Carnitine (and potentially TMG) every day. Any thoughts
> on whether this stuff is truly useful or not?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Lisa (and foster kitties Dexter, Tinytim, and Cameron, and forever
> kitty Gracie)
>
>
> --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Sue B <rockii@o...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > What cute kittens!
> >
> > Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended on
> this group
> > would help improve the health of any cat. They are good all-round
> > supplements. Personally, I take CoQ10 myself.
> >
> > I might hesitate to get them shots. Sometimes the vaccinations can
> affect
> > the health of a comprimised animal. My girl had vaccinosis from
> her rabies
> > shot and required major surgery (twice - I didn't realize what it
> was the
> > first time and stupid me - got her another shot two years later).
> >
> > Does anyone else on the list have an opinion on that?
> >
> >
> >
> > Sue
> >
>
>
>
>
Mj,
Welcome to the group, though I'm sorry you had to join us!
Rupert is a very lucky boy to have such a devoted mama! It sounds like he's
doing well and this is always a great thing :)
Lisa
On 11/1/05, mjj_007 <mjj_007@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I am the very lucky Mum to Rupert, whom I found ~ 11 years ago in
> Toronto. After moving to Michigan 9 years ago, we were fortunate to
> find a wonderful vet clinic with several specialists. Fortunate,
> because three years ago, rather than doing dental work, the vet
> recommended an echocardiogram where we learned that Rupert's long-
> standing heart murmur was actually HCM.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Carmen,
I am so, so sorry to hear about Boogie :( I am also so sad for you that you
had to go through this!
You did the best you could for him, and the others are right, there is
nothing to be gained by beating yourself up. While some experiences are
better than others, the sad reality is that this is a battle 99.9999% of
cats will just not win, no matter what we do.
I can see how his death was so traumatic for you to witness ... but really,
despite whatever pain he may have felt in the last moments of his life, his
eternity is pain-free. And he wouldn't want you to beat yourself up like
this! This didn't happen because you didn't love him, it didn't happen
because you didn't care or were too lazy or anything else ... you didn't
cause it, you couldn't cure it, and it is *not* your fault.
I know how awful this is for you now, and I'm so glad you posted ... please
don't feel you can't because it's sad, this is a support group and we're
here in good times and in bad. Vent as much as you'd like! As difficult as
this is now, I promise, there will come a time when you can remember Boogie
with nothing but happiness, and you *will* see him again someday!
*hugs*
Lisa
On 11/1/05, Carmen Sisson <cksisson@...> wrote:
>
> I don't know what to say. I never posted to this group, I just always
> silently lurked. And
> now...my Boogie is gone and I don't really know who to talk to. No one
> seems to
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa,
Interesting.... What form do you use and how much? I'm current giving Pepper
.5 ml twice daily of the liquid DMG from US Animal Nutritionals.
Where do you get yours?
Sue
----- Original Message -----
From: Lisa Clarizia
To: Sue B
Cc: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too
Sue (and Lisa),
It wasn't me ... Rosemary's the nutrional guru :)
Baby Boy gets DMG (dimethylglycine) and TMG (trimethylglycine) -- they are
different, aside from the number of methyl groups, they do different things.
DMG serves as an oxygen transport molecule and methyl donor in the respiratory
cycle of cells. It is dervived from TMG in the body, which in turn is derived
from choline. I give this because Baby Boy's heart has the elasticity of a
sandwich baggie and I figure he needs all the help with oxygenation he can get.
TMG, on the other hand, methylates and detoxifies homocysteine (which is
harmful) to form methionine (an amino acid). It's debatable how much good the
elimination of homocysteine will actually do for a cat with a cardiomyopathy,
since homocysteine is implicated in coronary artery disease, not cardiomyopathy
-- but I give it on the theory that if it helps protect the integrity of the
blood vessel linings, it can't hurt and may have a *slight* benefit in terms of
preventing clot formation.
Basically, if you were to give just one (and with so many cats getting buckets
of supplements, you might want to do this) I'd give TMG, since you will end up
with DMG as a breakdown product of TMG.
Lisa
On 11/2/05, Sue B <rockii@...> wrote:
Lisa,
I never heard of TMG and would love to hear what other people have to say.
I was feeding Missing Link but someone here (Rosemary or Lisa?) mentioned
that it's really not appropriately formulated for cats. The Kelp contains
something that may actually be harmful and there's too many carbohydrates.
My girl is a Maine Coon - I absolutely love her personality -
http://www.magdrl-nj.com/Pepper.html
Sue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sue, your girl is beautiful! I always said the only way I'd get
another cat was if a Maine Coon rescue fell in my lap like my last
guy - he was such a love. But Dexter is so much like one that I am
seriously tempted to keep him (though am a bit leery of having foster
kids who may have major issues around him). Thanks for the tip on
Missing Link - I will stay away!
Anyone know of any other good powdered supplement that I could mix my
taurine, TMG, and carnitine in to simplify life a bit?
Lisa, I guess I need to find out more about how efficiently TMG is
converted into DMG since it seems to be the more important
supplement. I had TMG already since I take it to keep my own
homocysteine levels down and ward off depression. Thanks for the
explanation - I didn't realize DMG had a function beyond methyl
donation.
Thank you for your help!
Lisa
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Clarizia <lclarizia@g...>
wrote:
>
> Sue (and Lisa),
>
> It wasn't me ... Rosemary's the nutrional guru :)
>
> Baby Boy gets DMG (dimethylglycine) and TMG (trimethylglycine) --
they are
> different, aside from the number of methyl groups, they do
different things.
>
> DMG serves as an oxygen transport molecule and methyl donor in the
> respiratory cycle of cells. It is dervived from TMG in the body,
which in
> turn is derived from choline. I give this because Baby Boy's heart
has the
> elasticity of a sandwich baggie and I figure he needs all the help
with
> oxygenation he can get.
>
> TMG, on the other hand, methylates and detoxifies homocysteine
(which is
> harmful) to form methionine (an amino acid). It's debatable how
much good
> the elimination of homocysteine will actually do for a cat with a
> cardiomyopathy, since homocysteine is implicated in coronary artery
disease,
> not cardiomyopathy -- but I give it on the theory that if it helps
protect
> the integrity of the blood vessel linings, it can't hurt and may
have a
> *slight* benefit in terms of preventing clot formation.
>
> Basically, if you were to give just one (and with so many cats
getting
> buckets of supplements, you might want to do this) I'd give TMG,
since you
> will end up with DMG as a breakdown product of TMG.
>
> Lisa
>
> On 11/2/05, Sue B <rockii@o...> wrote:
> >
> > Lisa,
> >
> > I never heard of TMG and would love to hear what other people
have to say.
> >
> > I was feeding Missing Link but someone here (Rosemary or Lisa?)
mentioned
> > that it's really not appropriately formulated for cats. The Kelp
contains
> > something that may actually be harmful and there's too many
carbohydrates.
> >
> > My girl is a Maine Coon - I absolutely love her personality -
> > http://www.magdrl-nj.com/Pepper.html
> >
> >
> >
> > Sue
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "taloah2000" <lisabee@c...>
> > To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 11:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [FH] So my baby boys have heart murmurs too
> >
> >
> > > Thank you Sue...they are all really sweeties although Dexter is
my
> > > favorite - he has a Maine Coonish personality.
> > >
> > > I have a couple more supplement questions. I understand people
are
> > > using DMG for their babies - is anyone using TMG (basically the
same
> > > thing except with three methyl groups instead of two, and much
> > > cheaper) instead? And is anyone using the supplement "Missing
Link?"
> > > I was thinking it might be easier to mix a proportionate amount
of
> > > each of the powdered supplements in with it rather than having
to
> > > mash up a new Carnitine (and potentially TMG) every day. Any
thoughts
> > > on whether this stuff is truly useful or not?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Lisa (and foster kitties Dexter, Tinytim, and Cameron, and
forever
> > > kitty Gracie)
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Sue B <rockii@o...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > What cute kittens!
> > > >
> > > > Yes, I would start supplementing. The supplements recommended
on
> > > this group
> > > > would help improve the health of any cat. They are good all-
round
> > > > supplements. Personally, I take CoQ10 myself.
> > > >
> > > > I might hesitate to get them shots. Sometimes the
vaccinations can
> > > affect
> > > > the health of a comprimised animal. My girl had vaccinosis
from
> > > her rabies
> > > > shot and required major surgery (twice - I didn't realize
what it
> > > was the
> > > > first time and stupid me - got her another shot two years
later).
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone else on the list have an opinion on that?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sue
>
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