I own a compounding pharmacy and have some experience with capsules as
we use ~30,000 of them a month.  Here are my thoughts...

Number 3 and 4 capsules are a good choice for most cats.  #5 capsules
are hard to find, more expensive, and so small that they are not
practical for most applications.  In fact, we don't use #5 capsules at
our compounding pharmacy (and I don't know any other compounder that
does either).  There are some folks that use #2 capsules to administer
pills to their cats and some on the Feline-CRF lists that administer
Azodyl capsules (for renal failure) that come in #1 capsules.  In my
opinion #1 are too big except for the largest cats and #2 are
borderline.  Another compounding convention is not to use #2 capsules,
so like #5 capsules they can be a bit harder to find.

Personally, I don't like the flavored capsules because the idea behind
the capsule is that it isolates the medication from the tongue, taste
buds, and throat.  The idea is to get the capsule washed down intact
so that the cat doesn't taste the foul medication.  If the capsule
tastes like food, the cat may be more likely to bite the capsule,
exposing the contents and defeating the purpose of the capsule.

-Ian
ThrivingPets.com
(303) 320-6034



--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "bluestar.light"
<bluestar.light@...> wrote:
>
> Do any here use empty gelatin capsules to combine pills to give their
> cats?  At this point Gracie gets five pills a day and she's more
> patient than I ever imagined she'd be a year ago, but it's still a bit
> much.  I've ordered some "size 5" capsules the smallest I can find and
> will try this out.  I'd be interested to hear any tips and experiences
> people here have had with giving cats capsules.   Even the size 5 is
> way bigger than each individual pill she gets now...it'll be smoother
> and tasteless but will she gag on it?
>
> blue & gracie
>

I found this info from a Google search. Hypercard 10 is Diltiazem.
It's evidently given to cats with HCM (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy),
but it says in the "precautions" to not give it to cats with
congestive heart failure or crf, so I might look into this a little
more before giving it to Boris.  Here's some of what I found. Sorry,
it's kinda long.

As far as Boris throwing another clot, it could happen, but
hopefully with giving the aspirin or other blood thinner type of
thing (heparin or nattokinase), you can cut down the possibility of
that happening again.

I wish I knew more. Perhaps some of the other members can chime in
and elaborate on these two things for you too.

I found this description on a vetmed website:  HyperCard 10 is
indicated for the therapeutic treatment of Feline Primary
Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy. Diltiazem Hydrochloride is a
benzothiazepine derivative which acts as a calcium channel blocker
and exerts its effect by selectively inhibiting the inward movement
of calcium ions across the cell membrane into vascular smooth muscle
cells and myocardial cells.

Here's another good one with a lot more information.

http://209.85.173.104/search?
q=cache:BP5nQT95Ln8J:www.vmd.gov.uk/espcsite/documents/105896.doc+hyp
ercard+10&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us
or this tinyurl if that long one doesn't work.
http://tinyurl.com/yw59mo

Here is some of the info from that site.

5.2 Indications for use, specifying the target species
For the therapeutic treatment of feline primary hypertrophic
cardiomyopathy

5.3 Contra-indications
-Do not use in animals suffering from AV block (2nd or 3rd),
hypotension or sick sinus syndrome.
Diltiazem should not be given to patients suffering from hepatic
disease.
-Do not use in animals suffering from renal disease.
-Do not use in cats less than 12 months old.
-Do not use in cats weighing less than 3kg.
-Do not use in animals that are hypersensitive to diltiazem.
-Do not use in cats with severe bradycardia or arterial hypotension.
-Do not use in conjunction with â blockers, digitalis or digoxin.

5.4 Undesirable Effects
Some lethargy can occur at the beginning of treatment. Diltiazem may
cause gastro-intestinal problems eg. constipation, and anorexia.
Rashes, skin reactions and erythema are potential side effects of
dilitazem. Bradycardia, hypotension and conduction abnormalities may
occasionally occur.

5.5 Special Precautions for Use
-Monitor glucose levels carefully in diabetic animals.
-Use with caution in cats suffering from congestive heart failure.
-Cats with possible pre-existing thyroid problems or hyperthyroidism
should be treated for this first and then reassessed prior to
commencing treatment with diltiazem.

I hope Boris does well for a long time for you.

hugs,
Carol and angel Chris
Puddy Boo Punkie MeanMama Misty Snowball and Chelsea
(angels Fritzy Sweetie Ducky Bouncer and Muffy)

"I know you're there...a breath away's not far to where you are."



>>
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "tudeski2007" <tudeski2007@...>
wrote:

He is now on a whole 75mg of asprin every four days now, but the VET
has also given my Hypercard 10 to give Boris. Can anyone tell me
what it is.
>>

If Boris has survived his blood clot and is showing signs of improvement,
then that is reassuring. Yes, he's a t risk of throwing another clot, but if
he's on anti clot meds, the risk will be reduced. It was lucky you got him to
the vets so quickly.

There are cats here who have survived clots and recovered use of their  legs,
but I personally have no experience with them. Thankfully none of mine  have
thrown a clot, but I keep nattokinase for emergencies. I`m also going to  get
baby aspirin and keep that in the cupboard too.

Lyn :)



www.furkids-uk.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all:  in reading this I had a question.  Is it to be "expected" for cats with
HCM that they will throw clots?  My cat Max was diagnosed in CHF and is doing
very well on meds.  In retrospect I believe we lost his sister last year to
clots from HCM (we were in Mexico and it went undiagnosed.)  Should I be
expecting that Max will have clots? and CRF?  So many of the cats mentioned here
have multiple problems, and at first I was just feeling lucky...now I'm
wondering if the others come as a result of the HCM/CHF with time.  Thanks for
your help and to all that participate for your wonderful advice.
Judi Levens


To: feline-heart@...: carolroars@...: Fri, 28 Dec
2007 05:41:40 +0000Subject: [FH] Re: Boris..first blood clot




I found this info from a Google search. Hypercard 10 is Diltiazem. It's
evidently given to cats with HCM (hypertrophic cardiomyopathy), but it says in
the "precautions" to not give it to cats with congestive heart failure or crf,
so I might look into this a little more before giving it to Boris. Here's some
of what I found. Sorry, it's kinda long.As far as Boris throwing another clot,
it could happen, but hopefully with giving the aspirin or other blood thinner
type of thing (heparin or nattokinase), you can cut down the possibility of that
happening again.I wish I knew more. Perhaps some of the other members can chime
in and elaborate on these two things for you too.I found this description on a
vetmed website: HyperCard 10 is indicated for the therapeutic treatment of
Feline Primary Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy. Diltiazem Hydrochloride is a
benzothiazepine derivative which acts as a calcium channel blocker and exerts
its effect by selectively inhibiting the inward movement of calcium ions across
the cell membrane into vascular smooth muscle cells and myocardial cells.Here's
another good one with a lot more
information.http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:BP5nQT95Ln8J:www.vmd.gov.uk/esp\
csite/documents/105896.doc+hypercard+10&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=usor this tinyurl
if that long one doesn't work. http://tinyurl.com/yw59moHere is some of the info
from that site.5.2 Indications for use, specifying the target speciesFor the
therapeutic treatment of feline primary hypertrophic cardiomyopathy5.3
Contra-indications-Do not use in animals suffering from AV block (2nd or 3rd),
hypotension or sick sinus syndrome.Diltiazem should not be given to patients
suffering from hepatic disease.-Do not use in animals suffering from renal
disease.-Do not use in cats less than 12 months old.-Do not use in cats weighing
less than 3kg.-Do not use in animals that are hypersensitive to diltiazem.-Do
not use in cats with severe bradycardia or arterial hypotension.-Do not use in
conjunction with â blockers, digitalis or digoxin.5.4 Undesirable EffectsSome
lethargy can occur at the beginning of treatment. Diltiazem may cause
gastro-intestinal problems eg. constipation, and anorexia. Rashes, skin
reactions and erythema are potential side effects of dilitazem. Bradycardia,
hypotension and conduction abnormalities may occasionally occur.5.5 Special
Precautions for Use-Monitor glucose levels carefully in diabetic animals.-Use
with caution in cats suffering from congestive heart failure.-Cats with possible
pre-existing thyroid problems or hyperthyroidism should be treated for this
first and then reassessed prior to commencing treatment with diltiazem.I hope
Boris does well for a long time for you. hugs,Carol and angel ChrisPuddy Boo
Punkie MeanMama Misty Snowball and Chelsea(angels Fritzy Sweetie Ducky Bouncer
and Muffy)"I know you're there...a breath away's not far to where you are.">>---
In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "tudeski2007" <tudeski2007@...> wrote:He is now
on a whole 75mg of asprin every four days now, but the VET has also given my
Hypercard 10 to give Boris. Can anyone tell me what it is. >>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Blue & Gracie;

We order from http://tubenterprises.com/.  She is the cheapest source we
have found, and responds quickly.  Pepper, who is only about seven months at
this point, is getting Lasix, Fortekor, and Pro Pectalin(ground up), in #4
capsules, which are the smallest we have found a source for, so I would be
interested in your #5 source.  I do find that the #4 is about the smallest
my fingers can handle without causing spillage, and one way or another we
have been compounding these pills for years.

What we do is shoot a bit of water across the tongue with a syringe, which
wets the mouth down and prevents the pills from staying in the mouth as the
water is swallowed.  Usually I open the mouth from behind as I can drop the
capsule in quite far back that way.  Kittens are a bit fractious as it takes
a while for a cat to learn that swallowing quickly is the best way to get
through the experience, but luckily Pepper loves the cold water squirted
across his tongue, so even though one squirt is good enough to get th pill
down, we have to do a fair number of small squirts until all the water is
gone out of the syringe before he will quit, which means it  has become a
game.  All the cats also have a treat of a shared can of Fancy Feast, (the
high protein varieties), after pilling, so the experience doesn't end up
being so negative.

It would be nice if Pepper was growing at a normal rate as it is harder with
a smaller mouth, and I understand that #5's may be an issue as they can also
stick to the mouth if it is dry.

We wouldn't waste the money on flavored capsules for the reason previously
mentioned in another post, too.  We don't want them to chew and possibly
spit out the pill if it becomes exposed.

Pat and all the boys.
http://pat-fearlessfosdick.blogspot.com/


----- Original Message -----
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "bluestar.light"
<bluestar.light@...> wrote:
>
> Do any here use empty gelatin capsules to combine pills to give their
> cats?  At this point Gracie gets five pills a day and she's more
> patient than I ever imagined she'd be a year ago, but it's still a bit
> much.  I've ordered some "size 5" capsules the smallest I can find and
> will try this out.  I'd be interested to hear any tips and experiences
> people here have had with giving cats capsules.   Even the size 5 is
> way bigger than each individual pill she gets now...it'll be smoother
> and tasteless but will she gag on it?

Good people of the list - I have a feeling that in my panic over Missi and
losing Toffee I didnt thank you all enough for your help.  I wanted to do that
now as I've really appreciated your support and advice.  Missi came home on
Christmas eve from her 3rd CHF crisis in just a few weeks - I'm hesitant to
celebrate but she has stayed breathing nicely for this week - hopefully she can
continue this as we have a vet appointment next Monday and if the vet sees she
can be stable then he will try that little harder for her I feel

I'm thinking too that its about time I started getting my head round all this
RCM business - finding out what's best and what I can do to support Missi
better.......So if you dont mind I'd like to ask a few questions....

1) re the supplements - would anyone know if taurine is ok with RCM?  Might it
cause a problem if it makes the muscle more well muscular?  Or doesnt it work
that way and is more general in improving funcion or something?
2) Enalapril verses benazepril? Is one considered better re the heart than the
other?  Missi is on Benazepril aka Fortekor which is more popular perhaps in the
uk.  I asked my vet (who's also a cardiologist) whether Missi might do better on
enalapril -because she hadnt been doing well after the adverse reaction to
Atenolol and I was wondering whether one might be more effective than the other
- he said that no they were both about the same and that in trials none of the
most commonly used three ACE Inhibitors performed better than the other.  He
felt that to get the same effect from enalapril you needed to give higher or
more frequent doses. I havent a clue whether this is right or not as you might
gather - so I wondered whether anyone else had heard anything to this effect or
even anything to contradict this?

Kim and the assorted fur-kids (UK)
An expert opinion is just that - an opinion, trust your own instincts


      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Kim,
I can't answer the taurine question - sorry. I do give taurine
supplement along with other ones to Luigi, my HCM cat. Some vets give
a combo of heart drugs and in Luigi's case, his HCM has remained
fairly stable with these for the last 2 yrs (which is amazing). He
takes 2.5 mg Fortekor twice daily. He also takes compounded time
release Diltiazem once daily (evening). He also takes amlodopine
(a.m.). The other meds he takes are lasix, compounded ASA (5 mg)
every second day and 1/4 plavix once daily.  He now has a few other
issues but is stable (fingers crossed always).
I'm glad Missi is doing better.
El

> 1) re the supplements - would anyone know if taurine is ok with
RCM?  Might it cause a problem if it makes the muscle more well
muscular?  Or doesnt it work that way and is more general in
improving funcion or something?
> 2) Enalapril verses benazepril? Is one considered better re the
heart than the other?  Missi is on Benazepril aka Fortekor which is
more popular perhaps in the uk.  I asked my vet (who's also a
cardiologist) whether Missi might do better on enalapril -because she
hadnt been doing well after the adverse reaction to Atenolol and I
was wondering whether one might be more effective than the other - he
said that no they were both about the same and that in trials none of
the most commonly used three ACE Inhibitors performed better than the
other.  He felt that to get the same effect from enalapril you needed
to give higher or more frequent doses. I havent a clue whether this
is right or not as you might gather - so I wondered whether anyone
else had heard anything to this effect or even anything to contradict
this?
>
> Kim and the assorted fur-kids (UK)
> An expert opinion is just that - an opinion, trust your own
instincts
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________
> Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Sorry to be a pain this evening - but can I also ask.....

Missi is on 75mg Aspirin every 72hours which I know is not uncommon for a cat
who threw a clot - but she is also on Plavix 1/4 tablet every day.
I just wanted to ask is it common that a cat has both?  Or does this seem a bit
over-cautious?  I guess I just worry a little about the Aspirin thing and would
rather not do that unless its really necessary.
If it helps I did ask the cardiologist about it and she said that it was a study
in humans that showed that taking both in conjunction was beneficial in humans
who had coronary artery problems.
What do we think?  Cats dont get this do they - how relevant then do we think
this is gonna be for cats and might the heavy meds schedule also have some
disadvantages?
Thanks in advance

Kim and the assorted fur-kids (UK)
An expert opinion is just that - an opinion, trust your own instincts


      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. 
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>cardiostrength has become available in the
UK as cardio-S and that formula doesn't seem as oily. <<

Catching up with a vengence here ;-) And sorry if this has already been asked
and answered - but can I ask Lyn, where did you get yours from?

Kim and the assorted fur-kids (UK)
An expert opinion is just that - an opinion, trust your own instincts


      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now. 
http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kim,
Studies on humans have found that AFTER someone has had a clot, that
taking both ASA and Plavix has helped in preventing another. There's
been no study on felines. Luigi is on both. The drs. thought he was
throwing small clots in his intestines (recently diagnosed via scan
with IBD) so they put him on both. His HCM is severe and his left
atrium is severely enlarged but his left atrium isn't smoky and he
hasn't thrown any major clots. His ASA is 5 mg compounded in capsule
form once every 48 hrs. He gets 1/4 of a 75 mg Plavix once every 24
hrs.
Hope this helps a bit.
El
  --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Kim Gregory
<kimothygregory@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry to be a pain this evening - but can I also ask.....
>
> Missi is on 75mg Aspirin every 72hours which I know is not uncommon
for a cat who threw a clot - but she is also on Plavix 1/4 tablet
every day.
> I just wanted to ask is it common that a cat has both?  Or does
this seem a bit over-cautious?  I guess I just worry a little about
the Aspirin thing and would rather not do that unless its really
necessary.
> If it helps I did ask the cardiologist about it and she said that
it was a study in humans that showed that taking both in conjunction
was beneficial in humans who had coronary artery problems.
> What do we think?  Cats dont get this do they - how relevant then
do we think this is gonna be for cats and might the heavy meds
schedule also have some disadvantages?
> Thanks in advance
>
> Kim and the assorted fur-kids (UK)
> An expert opinion is just that - an opinion, trust your own
instincts
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
______________
> Looking for last minute shopping deals?
> Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Kim,

Lester, our 9 year-old Maine Coon, is on both 1/4 Plavix daily and an Aspirin
every 72 hours.  He has thrown two clots -- one before he was on any meds and
one while he was on Plavix.  The Aspirin every 72 hours was added right after
the second clot.

After he had thrown the second clot, his tail was dragging on the ground. 
Within 3 hours of the first Aspirin, the tail started to come back to normal and
was totally back to normal within 24 hours after that first Aspirin.

Cathi in Toronto



----- Original Message ----
From: Kim Gregory <kimothygregory@...>
To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:11:15 PM
Subject: [FH] Another Missi question Aspirin AND plavix?













             Sorry to be a pain this evening - but can I also ask.....



Missi is on 75mg Aspirin every 72hours which I know is not uncommon for a cat
who threw a clot - but she is also on Plavix 1/4 tablet every day.

I just wanted to ask is it common that a cat has both?  Or does this seem a bit
over-cautious?  I guess I just worry a little about the Aspirin thing and would
rather not do that unless its really necessary.

If it helps I did ask the cardiologist about it and she said that it was a study
in humans that showed that taking both in conjunction was beneficial in humans
who had coronary artery problems.

What do we think?  Cats dont get this do they - how relevant then do we think
this is gonna be for cats and might the heavy meds schedule also have some
disadvantages?

Thanks in advance



Kim and the assorted fur-kids (UK)

An expert opinion is just that - an opinion, trust your own instincts











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks everybody!  Well I'm glad to report that Gracie took her first
capsule tonight with no problem.  The #5 is tiny, the three different
quarters of pills she gets fits exactly inside the capsule so I
actually couldn't go any smaller.  I dipped the capsule in water first
and then used a pill popper to get it way back in her throat and she
seemed fine with it.  So I'm very happy and I think she was too to
just get "one" pill.  I got the capsules from the local compounder
here and I'm not sure if would send out orders or not, I can ask him
if there is interest.  In the meantime I also found an internet source
here at http://www.westernsporting.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?
Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1111&Product_Code=FE4050 .

blue & gracie

--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "bluestar.light"
<bluestar.light@...> wrote:
>
> Do any here use empty gelatin capsules to combine pills to give
their
> cats?  At this point Gracie gets five pills a day and she's more
> patient than I ever imagined she'd be a year ago, but it's still a
bit
> much.  I've ordered some "size 5" capsules the smallest I can find
and
> will try this out.  I'd be interested to hear any tips and
experiences
> people here have had with giving cats capsules.   Even the size 5 is
> way bigger than each individual pill she gets now...it'll be
smoother
> and tasteless but will she gag on it?
>
> blue & gracie
>

I feed my CRF kitties (two of 'em) Renal LP made my Royal Canin and
it seems pretty well received.  It's been the best of the vet type
foods I've tried so far.  Wishing you and Midnight well.

blue & gracie

--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "midnightgirl01"
<Fluffyflud@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you to everyone who kept Midnight in your prayers over the
past
> few days.  Have an update for her as we got her to our vet
yesterday
> and had a blood test done.  At this point she is showing signs of
> kidney failure and anemia.  I am taking her back to the vet
tomorrow
> and she is going to give her an etrhropoetin injection and some
> subcutaneous fluids.  She said she would teach us how to do that
for
> her as keeping her hydrated is important.
> She still thinks she passed another small clot over Christmas so
the
> heparin injections will still be needed.
>
> I'm going to look at getting some foods that are good for CRF
> kitties, and she said since she has an appetite that we should feed
> her as much as she will eat.  She has lost some weight since she
was
> last at the vet.
>
> She still seems to get around ok although her back leg is fairly
> stiff, and she does tug at the hair on her leg a bit.  The vet
thinks
> it is because she has tingling in her legs from the poor blood
> circulation.
>
> This is very tough for me as she has been my little girl now for
over
> 18 years.  She is still just as beautiful and just as precious as
> ever.
>

Hi

My vet orders it for me from Vetri science laboratories, 17, Nursery Close,
West Felton, Oswestry. SY11 4LZ. I did order it from a website but this new
formula is veterinary prescribed.

01691 610818
_info@..._ (mailto:info@...)

www.furkids-uk.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello.  When I was at the vet's office today I was talking to a
receptionist about arthritis problems.  A vet who is not
Snowball's(there are around 4 in the practice) mentioned that because
Cosequin has 100 mg of Sodium Chondroitin Sulfate in it and Snowball
has hypertension she did not recommend Snowball taking Cosequin
because sodium is bad for cats with hypertension.  Do people here
think that Cosequin would be ok for a cat with hypertension or would
giving Snowball Cosequin potentially make the hypertension worse?

Judi,

>Is it to be "expected" for cats with HCM that they
will throw clots?

It is not exactly expected, but it is a common
problem so not terribly surprising.
Although the risk of clots is there, not all cats
with heart disease will have a clot.  For
example my cat who  developed a murmur
between the ages of 3.5  and 4.5 died at 6.75
never, to my knowledge suffered a clot.  However,
we did not have a necropsy done, so I cannot
say that definitively.

There is believed to be a correlation between the
size of the left atrium (typically a comparison
of the left atrium to the aorta), and clot formation
due to
blood stasis which might promote hypercoagulability.

http://maxshouse.com/arterial_thromboembolism.htm
(this info is now several years old, but basically not
much has changed as far as I am aware)

"Curent data indicate that arterial emboli
originate from the heart and therefore represent
  a cardiac disorder. Cardiomyopathies
commonly progress to evolve similar
pathophysiologic end-points that favor
thrombosis due to a triad of precipitating
factors identified by Virchow over a century
ago: endothelial injury, a zone of circulatory
stasis, and a hypercoagulable state (see Patho-
physiology, earlier). Therefore, primary
prevention of thromboembolism is basically
  a battle against the underlying cardiac
disorder. No therapies have been identified
  that reverse or significantly retard the
development of feline heart disease or its
  related pathologic or prothrombotic sequelae.
Moreover, it is likely that multiple interactions
  are involved in thrombogenesis, including
myocardial pathology and cardiac dysfunction,
platelets, and other blood components and factors."


>My cat Max was diagnosed in CHF and is doing very
well on meds.
That's really great news!

>In retrospect I believe we lost his sister last year
to clots from HCM (we were in >Mexico and it went
undiagnosed. )
I think you mentioned that before, I am sorry for the
loss.

>Should I be expecting that Max will have clots?
I would certainly keep in in the back of my mind, but
I would try not to spend the next months or years
expecting it.

This info is from the same site as above - again the
data he (Philip Fox) cites is several years old, but
it can give
you a rough idea.

"Cardiogenic emboli frequently complicate the course
of myocardial disease and result in significant
morbidity and mortality.  

At necropsy,
thromboembolism has been reported in up to 48 percent
of HCM cats 29 percent of RCM,  25 percent of DCM, 
and 14 percent of cats with excessive LV moderator
bands.  The prevalence in the general population is
undoubtedly less than that detected from necropsy
surveys.   Clinical studies have reported incidences
of arterial thromboembolism
ranging from 16
percent to 18 percent in taurine deficiency DCM; 18
percent in idiopathic myocardial failure; 12 percent
in HCM ; 13 percent of cats with nondilated IV
hypertrophy; and 19 percent of 46 HCM cats either at
clinical presentation or during long-term follow-up.  
Most cats with systemic arterial thromboembolism have
CHF concurrently at the time of clinical embolism. 
Thromboembolism is uncommon with hyperthyroidism, and
a 3 percent incidence of thyrotoxicosis was recorded
in 100 cats with saddle embolism.

Age of
occurrence for thromboembolism ranged from 1 to 20
years (mean, 7.7 years; median, 10.5 years) in one
report. The highest incidence occurred in 4- and
7-year-old cats. A male preponderance was recorded (67
percent).  

The site of cardiogenic
embolism is variable, but distal aortic ("saddle")
embolization is the predominant clinical location in
more than 90 percent of cats affected with
thromboembolic complications. The right brachial
artery is  occasionally occluded (the left brachial
artery is only rarely embolized). Leftsided heart
mural thrombi are sometimes present,
particularly
in the left auricle and less often
in the left ventricle. Various other organs may become
embolized as a consequence of systemic embolic
"showers," especially the kidneys and, less often, the
mesenteric arteries."

More recent info from the same author can be found
here (watch the URL wrap)
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2007&PID=18181&O=Generic

A different author's presentation on the same topic:
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2007&PID=18210&O=Generic

>and CRF?
>So many of the cats mentioned here have multiple
problems, and at first I was just >feeling lucky...now
I'm wondering if the others come as a result of the
HCM/CHF >with time.

It's hard to say.  A lot of body systems are linked.
High blood
pressure for example can effect both the heart and the
kidney.

Many of the cats here are older and CRF/CRD is,
unfortunately, relatively
common in older cats.  However, the heart and the
kidney systems
are related to each other in certain aspects.  If the
heart doesn't pump
so well, not enough blood will get to the kidneys
which can cause
some problems.  My cat had what I believe was acute
renal failure
(pre-renal azotemia), but she was (mis)diagnosed with
CRF.    Briefly,
as I mentioned, decreased blood flow causes the
kidneys to be
less well perfused with blood.  This can be compounded
by the
fact that by giving diuretics, the cat can become a
bit dehydrated
(hypovolemia).  However, after we increased her
hydration and
reduced her diuretics, her kidney values returned to
normal and
ultrasound indicated normal kidneys. The kidneys can
also
suffer when a small blood clot travels to them.  Clots
can
also travel to the liver.  Not all clots cause the
classical
saddle thrombosis.  There can also be problems with
the kidney
from overhydration, in this case the filling pressure
in the left
ventricle increases such that it can't pump out enough
blood -
again starving the kidney, so to speak for blood.

Another thing to keep in mind is that many heart
cats take aspirin for several  months or years.  In
my opinion, it is not the best choice for a cat.
First,
there is no evidence yet that aspirin works as a clot
preventative in cats (as far as I know, nothing has
been shown to be effective yet).  Second, although
it is common to give aspirin every 3 days in a
clot prevention strategy designed to help avoid
the toxic effects of this drug in cats, cats do
lack certain liver enzymes that are needed to process
aspirin and other NSAIDs (e.g. metacam).  In cats,
NSAIDs can cause kidney damage.  Possibly
because NSAIDs block prostaglandin production -
reducing kidney perfusion...

Other common things that cause kitties and their
people to wind up here are hypertention and
hyperthyroidism.  Both of these diseases can effect
the heart and the kidney.  That's one of the reasons
it is important to rule out these other conditions
before categorizing a cat as an HCM cat.

I hope this helps a little.

best,

Nala with Camille and Cozette in spirit.




      
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Hello all,

Dakota had a wheezing attack tonight. While he was having it I petted
him and it calmed him down and made him stop. I have some lasix for
him from 3 months ago, but have not used it for him yet because the
vet warned it could quickly dehydrate him. Now I'm wondering if maybe
he needs it? I thought about giving him one dose tonight but am not
sure if that is a good idea or not. Any thoughts on this would be
appreciated. Otherwise he is doing well. He has been eating and has
been warm and affectionate. Of course I'll be calling the vet when she
gets back on Wednesday but in the mean time would appreciate any
thoughts on the subject.

Thank you!
Dody, Dakota, and Vanessa

Please be sure to trim all replies, especially all the junk that Yahoo puts on
the bottom of the emails. When replies are not trimmed reading the digest can be
nearly impossible. It also takes longer for emails to download for those on a
dial-up connection.


Thanks!


Diane
Feline-Heart List Mom

Hi,

I'm Catherine, an infrequent poster but avid reader.  Most recently I
wrote about the problems I was facing with a chubby non-HCM mother cat
and her 3 HCM babies who are almost 5 years 4 months old.  Still facing
this ... have been feeding her separately in another room, but she's
been attempting to curry favour by breaking into the 'forbidden room'
(this room with the computer) and then leaving the door open so her
kids go inside & get into trouble, while she sits there all "butter
wouldn't melt in my mouth"-like!

Anyway, tomorrow's due to get to 42 degrees celsius during the day,
only as low as 26 overnight, then back up to 37 again Tuesday, with no
air-con.  (For those in the US, 42C = 108F, 26C = 79F and 37C = 99F).
Friday and Saturday next week are due to be hot also.

We've had a couple of days over 40 already this season, but they've
been followed by a cooler day.  eg Saturday was 41C, but overnight it
dropped to 14C and then today was "only" about 32C followed by a drop
again tonight.

Anyway, the point of this post WASN'T to be the weathergirl (I know it
seems otherwise) ... the point was to say ... wish us luck!  It's going
to be hard on them with no aircon, though they're pretty clever at just
hanging out and conserving energy.

See you all on the other side of this hot spell,

Catherine and:
Kitty (mother), Buttons-Angel, Patch, Claude & Tuppenny.

Hi all...I have been reading much on your forum today and would love
some input.   My cat - Spice is a 5 year old female.  I have had her
since birth.  Her mother is a siamese but I do not know her dad and
they catagorize her as an american short hair.  I first oticed a
problem a week ago when she refused her treats and seemed much
lighter in my arms.  REalized she was not eating and took her to the
vet right away.  They barely looked at her, said she had an infection
gave her clavamox and sent her home.  I know that kitties must eat
and had also noticed that she was ot drinking or going to the box.  I
reasearched on line and from sysmptons thought it ws fatty liver so I
started a force feeding program with a mixture of baby food or cat
food with pedialite round the clock every 3 to 4 hours.  Once daily
vomiting and one week later, I became extremely concerned and found
another vet.  He did confirm the fatty liver but said it was
secondary to hcm.  This was on friday.  He put her on atenolol and
benazepril and has me to continue with the feedings every 4 hours.
She is not very active,  just lays in her bed.  she is alert and her
eyes follow everything with interest.  Her breathing is very fast
though..around 55 a minute, which is actully down from yesterday when
they were over 70.  will that improve as the medication gets into her
system?  He did not indicate how soon we should see improvemnet but
we go back on the 7th to be checked.

any help or advise that you can give me would be great.  She did just
poop for the first time in over a week and has stared urinating
regularly.

I am so glad to find a group like you for support as I am very
concerned.

Shannon

Hi Judi,

>I want to try to prevent that (clot) for Max if
> it's possible.

I completely understand.  I opted to give my
cat Plavix before the cardiologist thought that
it was needed.  I believe that it must've had some
effect on her platelet stickiness because once she
started taking it, rather than seeing an estimate
of "adequate" and a note that platelet clumping
had occurred, I got an actual count.

  >but I am just trying to be
> prepared for the future (and given that we are in
> Mexico till May I feel a personal need to be able to
> help him.)

I talked with my cat's cardiologist about the
possibility
of clots and treatments when my cat was diagnosed.
She suggested trying Plavix as a prevention med.  She
said that she had used aspirin for many clients, and
she
felt that the Plavix was better tolerated with fewer
side effects (anecdotal).  However, after my cat had
taken Plavix for nearly a year, she mentioned that now
that she had more cats taking it, she found more
patients
who did not tolerate it as well as she initially
thought they
would.

> I was prepared to use asprin if he threw
> a clot...is there anything else you would recommend
> using instead?  I'd like to have something here just
> in case.

Aspirin cannot dissolve a clot that already exists.
Aspirin
has its effect by making platelets less sticky so a
clot
is less likely to form in the first place.  Some
people
are resistant or become resistant to this effect of
aspirin.   It is believed to be safe, in low doses
for cats, but some cats don't tolerate it well.  I
personally
would try to avoid chronic use of aspirin or any NSAID
for my cat. However, many members here do give
aspirin.
Some of these cats have experienced a clot.

Plavix is expensive, but hasn't been proven
to be effective in clot prevention either,  and like
aspirin resistance, some people have also
become resistant to Plavix.    I don't know
whether cats might have  the  same problem. Some
members here have given the combination of aspirin
and plavix.  Some cats at this group who were
taking Plavix have suffered clots as well.

Heparin or low molecular weight heparin (lovenox
injectable, for example)  is also an anti-coagulant,
and will help prevent a
clot that already exists from getting larger.  I have
only
seen reports of heparin resistance in humans when
heparin is
used in conjunction with cardiac surgery.

Omega-3  fatty acids from fish oil have been suggested
to
have some anti-clotting effects in people.  I haven't
seen a study done in cats.  It is also thought to help
prevent heart arrythmia in people.

Nattokinase is a supplement that appears to have
both anti-clotting activity as well as thrombolytic
activity (clot busting).  It has not been well tested
in cats, but several people here give it to their
kitties.

Warfarin has been used in some veterinary practices
and vet schools (there are a few papers on the
subject), but because of the extensive monitoring
that this treatment requires, most vets will not offer
it as a drug choice.  It is commonly used in people
as a "blood-thinner" or anticoagulant. It cannot
break up a clot that exists, but it can prevent a
clot from getting larger.

tPA (tissue plasminogen activator)  can help bust up
clots.
It is extremely expensive and is used, to the best of
my
knowledge, exclusively in the veterinary clinic and
not
all clinics would have it on hand. It runs the
secondary
risks of causing reperfusion injury and hyperkalemia
(high
potassium levels) which can lead to a low heart rate
and
fatal heart arrhythmia.

This link might be useful for you:

http://www.ovrs.com/feline_thromboembolic_disease.htm


A study is currently underway that is examining
Plavix vs. Aspirin as treatments to prevent a
second clot in a cat that has already experienced
a clot.   I have been keeping my
eye open for any interim analysis, but haven't seen
anything yet.



"Title of study: Feline Arterial Thromboembolism
study: Clopidogrel vs. Aspirin Trial (FAT CAT)

Purpose of study: To determine if there is a decreased
occurrence of re-embolization (secondary prevention)
with aspirin compared to Plavix ® (clopidogrel) and
identify any potential adverse effects from chronic
aspirin or Plavix ® therapy.

Principal Investigator: Dr. Daniel F. Hogan, Associate
Professor-Cardiology, Purdue University

Description of study: It is very common for cats with
heart disease to develop blood clots. These clots can
reduce blood flow to different parts of the body and
can result in paralysis of the rear or front legs,
kidney disease or stroke. Fortunately, most cats will
recover from these events over a 1-2 month period.
However, cats that have already had a clot event are
very likely to experience another event. In most cases
we are unable to correct the underlying heart disease
but we can try to reduce the risk for developing clots
by using blood-thinning agents. Aspirin, which makes
platelets less sticky, has been the most widely used
agent in veterinary medicine. However, there has never
been a study demonstrating that aspirin is effective
at reducing the clotrisk. Aspirin has been shown to be
very safe in cats when given at the doses used in this
study. Adverse effects associated with aspirin therapy
in cats include vomiting and diarrhea. Clopidogrel
(Plavix ® ) is a newer antiplatelet agent that is more
potent than aspirin and is more effective than aspirin
in some human studies. It has been shown that
clopidogrel does inhibit platelets in cats but it is
not known if it is effective at reducing the risk for
clots in cats. There have been no identified adverse
effects of clopidogrel in cats to date but this study
will provide additional information on potential
adverse effects. This is a double-blinded study
(neither the owners nor the investigators will know
what drug each cat is taking) that will evaluate if
aspirin or clopidogrel is more effective at reducing
the rate of re-occurrence of clots in cats. If study
analysis identifies an increased risk or dramatically
decreased risk with one drug the study will be ended
early and the identification of the study drug
revealed."

>
  My cat was thoroughly tested when
> he had CHF and doesn't seem to have any of the oher
> complications presently,

That's great news!


>When Cleo threw her clot the vet treated
> her with a steroid (and had us inject her daily for
> 3 days...it was a Christmas shut down and there are
> no emergency vets here.)
Oh goodness,  steroids should generally be avoided
in kitties with heart problems.  They can precipitate
CHF.  Also ketamine and atropine should be avoided
in heart kitties.

>She was OK, but I believe
> suffered a second, fatal clot which caused her to
> die (at the time, knowing nothing about HCM we
> thought it was a reaction to the steroid or a "heart
> attack").

It might have been a reaction to the steroid, a heart
arrhythmia, or as you suspect, a clot.

> Have you ever heard of anythink like a body sore
> related to this?  I've just noticed he's licking on
> the inside of his leg on a small patch where there
> is no fur.

Based on what has been reported here, some kitties
that have a clot will bite ate and lick that spot if
they can reach it.  Other things to consider (and I
am by no means an expert on feline licking and
hairloss!) are allergies, fleas and ringworm or
other fungal infection.  Others here will likely
have better ideas.

Unless he caught himself on something I
> can't imagine how he lost it...Probably totally
> unrelated, but I just thought I'd ask.
> Again...I really appreciate your help...Judi
>
You never know whether it is related or not, so it
is best to ask. Someone here might have seen
the same thing.

Best,

Nala




      
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Hi Catherine,

Where do you live that it's that hot?  Oh my gosh! I know how
important it is to keep heart kitties from getting overheated.  You
might get some relief for the kitties if you can put a big bowl of ice
in front of a fan. Blow the fan over the ice and it kind of makes a
makeshift a/c of sorts. I've done that in our house at times, also no
a/c.  In California where I live, the south San Francisco bay area,
sometimes in the summertime it gets to around 103 on the bad days, and
I have to figure out ways to keep my guys cool too.

Sending "cool" thoughts your way.

hugs,
Carol & angel Chris
Puddy Boo Punkie MeanMama Misty Snowball and Chelsea
(angels Fritzy Sweetie Ducky Bouncer and Muffy)

"I know you're there...a breath away's not far to where you are."

Hi Blue,

In a message dated 12/27/07 2:56:23 AM, bluestar.light@... writes:

> Do any here use empty gelatin capsules to combine pills to give their
> cats?
>
Yes, we do.

>   At this point Gracie gets five pills a day and she's more
> patient than I ever imagined she'd be a year ago, but it's still a bit
> much. 
>
> I've ordered some "size 5" capsules the smallest I can find and
> will try this out. 
>
I think #5s are pretty small. We generally use #2, sometimes #3. There is a
good chart with gelcap sizes and information about how much they will contain
here: http://www.torpac.com/small_animal_capsule.htm and
http://www.torpac.com/Reference/unlinked_size_chart.htm . Also general
information on capsules here:
http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/gelcaps.htm .

>  I'd be interested to hear any tips and experiences
> people here have had with giving cats capsules. 
>
I think the most important thing with pilling anything is to administer it
properly, so it goes to the back of the throat, and chasing the pill with a food
treat or syringe of water so that the pill doesn't get stuck in the
esophagus. This becomes even more important with multiple pillings per day.
Putting a
teeny amt of butter on the "free" end of the pill (the end you're not holding)
can be helpful with some cats.

There's a gentle, effective pilling technique here if you need a refresher:
www.marvistavet.com/html/pilling_a_cat.html.

And information about the importance of chasing a pill here (among others):
http://www.cfa.org/articles/health/esophageal-transit.html .

>  but will she gag on it?
>
Hard to say. I think that depends in part on pilling technique. // Rosemary



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Shannon

Welcome to you and Spice, although I`m sorry to hear Spice has HCM. HCM is
not uncommon in American and British shorthairs. I've never heard of fatty
liver  being secondary to HCM, although it can affect the other organs. Cats can
get  fatty liver from not eating though, so it is vital to eat regularly.

I'd be worried about the not drinking and peeing. Has Spice had any tests
and has she had an ultrasound to diagnose the type of HCM she has? HCM can
occasionally be confused with heart problems caused by thyroid or anaemia for
example. Please could you tell us about Spice's blood test results.

Her respiration rate was certainly high as seen in a heart problem kitty,
but that can also be caused by an infection. I'm glad the breathing rate is
slower, but is still too high. Atenolol is usually given in small doses and
increased and if there are signs of heart failure, then it is reduced until 
kitty
is stable. Normally cats wouldn't be diagnosed with HCM without an
ultrasound to confirm it.

Please could you give more details of Spice's diagnosis and test results.  If
you read up in this forum, you'll find a wealth of information as well.

:) Lyn
www.furkids-uk.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Shannon,
>
> With a respiratory rate that high, it sounds
> as though your dear kitty, Spice, might actually
> be in heart failure (CHF).   If so, then Lasix, a
> diuretic,
> might be indicated.  Don't let the idea of heart
> failure
> disturb you.  It just means that the heart isn't
> pumping well enough to prevent fluid from backing
> up into the lungs and it is relatively easy to
> treat in its early stages.  Some cats live for
> years after a bout of CHF.
>
> I would discuss this with the vet that diagnosed
> the HCM as soon as possible.  I would not
> wait for a week to start a diuretic if it is
> indicated.
>
> Most cats have a normal
> respiratory rate in the 20s when calmly
> resting and sometimes in the mid to
> low 20s when sleeping, but not dreaming.
> I think most would agree that respiratory rate
> in the mid 30s is starting to be concerning
> and a rate above 40 will often indicate
> a problem.
>
> Was the HCM diagnosed by ultrasound?
> Has she seen a cardiologist, or just
> the second vet?  If only an x-ray was done, it would
> not
> be clear what the exact diagnosis is. Radiographs
> can only show an enlarged or grossly misshapen
> heart.  The x-ray would also show fluid in the lungs
> or in the lung cavity.  The ultrasound allows the
> examiner to determine the thickness of the heart
> walls, the heart valves and their movement and
> allows one to calculate the velocity of blood flow
> in the heart.  An ultrasound is required to
> definitively
> categorize heart disease as HCM (hypertrophic
> cardiomyopathy), DCM (dilated cardiomyopathy),
> RCM (restrictive cardiomyopathy), unclassified
> cardiomyopathy or valvular disease.
>
>
> Atenolol is used to slow the heart rate
> and is usually started at a low dose and
> then slowly increased.  Too high of a dose
> of atenolol can cause decompensation,
> especially when first introducing the
> drug (CHF).  Benazepril is an ACE-inhibitor
> that acts as a weak vasodilator and can
> lead to potassium retention.  If potassium
> levels get too high, the heart will slow down
> and may cause a fatal arrhythmia.  Most
> animals here receive benazepril in combination
> with lasix.  Again, there might be reasons
> why your vet chose this particular combination
> for your cat, but it might illustrate the importance
> of having your cat seen by a cardiologist
> or internal medicine vet that specializes in
> cardiology.  Unfortunately, many general
> practitioner vets are not as familiar with
> heart disease as one might want.
>
> I haven't heard of feline fatty liver disease
> as a consequence of HCM before.  I am
> not saying that the vet is wrong, just that
> I don't remember seeing anything like that before.
> Perhaps, because some kitties with fluid
> in their lungs (CHF) will stop eating and
> drinking, your vet suspects this as the cause
> of the hepatic lipidosis, but in my opinion,
> that would not be a direct consequence of HCM,
> but rather an indirect consequence of heart failure.
>
>
> I am so glad that you are
> able to feed your girl without much trouble.
> You must love her very much to keep up wiht
> the frequent feedings.  Are you already a
> member of the yahoo feline assisted feeding
> group?  They can be a great resource and
> support.
>
> I am very sorry to learn about Spice.  She
> is relatively young.  My cat Cozette was
> diagnosed with HCM when she was about
> the age.
>
> Best wishes to you both.
>
>
>
>
>
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> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>



      
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thank you...Her breathing is down to 25 to 28 today.  She is also
taking in about double the amount of food that she has been
tolerating.  Previously I was able to get about 15cc of food and 12
cc of water every 3 to four hours... her last feeding, I got 30 ccs
of food and 15 ccs of water down before she decided she had enough.

I did not have an ultrasound done...I cannot afford it at this time.
I will be able to in a couple of weeks.  My new vet seems to be very
up with heart conditions and is 99% sure of the diagnosis.  We will
do the ultrasound as soon as we can to verify..   She did stop eating
and with 7 cats...i did not catch it as soon as I should have what
with the Christmas and all going on.  So I really believe that we are
dealing with 2 seperate issues.  I think that he did not want to do
the lasix because of her not eating and drinking and we are trying to
get fluids into her.

She is alert just not very active although she has never been very
active.  She did take about a teaspoon of food on her own this
morning.  That is the first time in 2 weeks that she would eat
anything but maybe 1 and only 1 treat.  The only other thing she will
eat is catnip which I have been giving a little after every feeding
because it seems to calm her stomach and keep her from throwing up.
We have had only a small amount of vomiting yesterday...after huge
amounts every day for a week and none today so far.

I know that we need to do the cardiologist thing, but I do not work
and am on a limited income.  I do have some money caoming in a couple
of weeks from my father's estate and plan on using some of it to at
least confirm what we are doing is right.

Thank you for all the help you can give and advice.  I am so leary of
vets having had 2 bad ones in a row before this one and tend to try
to double check everything.  He diagnosed the hcm based on a heart
murmer and a full panel blood work.

Shannon

Hi Shannon, I am so sorry to hear about the trouble with Spice.   It
is so hard especially in this initial phase of getting a diagnosis
and being sure that you've got the right vet.  Would you mind sharing
what tests have already been done on Spice?  Odds are you will end up
spending more than you ever imagined so I think it's really worth it
to shop around and feel very good about your vet and the diagnoses.
The main thing that concerns me is that her breathing rate is still
so high despite the medication.  For my kitty Gracie, I've been told
to watch her breathing rate to determine whether she's gone into CHF -
  it did go up to 40 a minute and she had begun mild CHF for the first
time - Lasix (a diuretic) was what brought her out of it.  It's
possible Spice was already dehydrated which was why your vet didn't
put her on it, but I don't know how well a cat can pull out of heart
failure without it.   Still every case and cat are different, my only
real advice is get even a third opinon if you have any doubts - it is
worth it in the long run.

blue & gracie


--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "schatziesue"
<SchatziesPlace@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all...I have been reading much on your forum today and would
love
> some input.   My cat - Spice is a 5 year old female.  I have had
her
> since birth.  Her mother is a siamese but I do not know her dad and
> they catagorize her as an american short hair.  I first oticed a
> problem a week ago when she refused her treats and seemed much
> lighter in my arms.  REalized she was not eating and took her to
the
> vet right away.  They barely looked at her, said she had an
infection
> gave her clavamox and sent her home.  I know that kitties must eat
> and had also noticed that she was ot drinking or going to the box.
I
> reasearched on line and from sysmptons thought it ws fatty liver so
I
> started a force feeding program with a mixture of baby food or cat
> food with pedialite round the clock every 3 to 4 hours.  Once daily
> vomiting and one week later, I became extremely concerned and found
> another vet.  He did confirm the fatty liver but said it was
> secondary to hcm.  This was on friday.  He put her on atenolol and
> benazepril and has me to continue with the feedings every 4 hours.
> She is not very active,  just lays in her bed.  she is alert and
her
> eyes follow everything with interest.  Her breathing is very fast
> though..around 55 a minute, which is actully down from yesterday
when
> they were over 70.  will that improve as the medication gets into
her
> system?  He did not indicate how soon we should see improvemnet but
> we go back on the 7th to be checked.
>
> any help or advise that you can give me would be great.  She did
just
> poop for the first time in over a week and has stared urinating
> regularly.
>
> I am so glad to find a group like you for support as I am very
> concerned.
>
> Shannon
>

Thanks...her breathing is down to 28 today.  She is not anemic or
dehydrated.  I had blood work done a full panel but could not afford
to do the ultrasound.  I will be able to in a couple of weeks.
  She is very alert but not very active although she is not an overly
active kitty. She also double her food intake today by syrnge at the
last feeding. and ther has been no vomiting since friday when they
put her on the meds.  Diagnosis was based on the heart murmur and
bloodwork.  i think the liver is a seperate issue because she felt so
bad that she stopped eating.    i am just worried about the meds she
is on and if they are right.  also I have been giving her
pedialyte...is that wrong?  I thought it would be good for the
electrolytes but now I am not sure.

Shannon




--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "bluestar.light"
<bluestar.light@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Shannon, I am so sorry to hear about the trouble with Spice.
It
> is so hard especially in this initial phase of getting a diagnosis
> and being sure that you've got the right vet.  Would you mind
sharing
> what tests have already been done on Spice?  Odds are you will end
up
> spending more than you ever imagined so I think it's really worth
it
> to shop around and feel very good about your vet and the
diagnoses.
> The main thing that concerns me is that her breathing rate is still
> so high despite the medication.  For my kitty Gracie, I've been
told
> to watch her breathing rate to determine whether she's gone into
CHF -
>  it did go up to 40 a minute and she had begun mild CHF for the
first
> time - Lasix (a diuretic) was what brought her out of it.  It's
> possible Spice was already dehydrated which was why your vet didn't
> put her on it, but I don't know how well a cat can pull out of
heart
> failure without it.   Still every case and cat are different, my
only
> real advice is get even a third opinon if you have any doubts - it
is
> worth it in the long run.
>
> blue & gracie
>
>
> --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "schatziesue"
> <SchatziesPlace@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi all...I have been reading much on your forum today and would
> love
> > some input.   My cat - Spice is a 5 year old female.  I have had
> her
> > since birth.  Her mother is a siamese but I do not know her dad
and
> > they catagorize her as an american short hair.  I first oticed a
> > problem a week ago when she refused her treats and seemed much
> > lighter in my arms.  REalized she was not eating and took her to
> the
> > vet right away.  They barely looked at her, said she had an
> infection
> > gave her clavamox and sent her home.  I know that kitties must
eat
> > and had also noticed that she was ot drinking or going to the
box.
> I
> > reasearched on line and from sysmptons thought it ws fatty liver
so
> I
> > started a force feeding program with a mixture of baby food or
cat
> > food with pedialite round the clock every 3 to 4 hours.  Once
daily
> > vomiting and one week later, I became extremely concerned and
found
> > another vet.  He did confirm the fatty liver but said it was
> > secondary to hcm.  This was on friday.  He put her on atenolol
and
> > benazepril and has me to continue with the feedings every 4
hours.
> > She is not very active,  just lays in her bed.  she is alert and
> her
> > eyes follow everything with interest.  Her breathing is very fast
> > though..around 55 a minute, which is actully down from yesterday
> when
> > they were over 70.  will that improve as the medication gets into
> her
> > system?  He did not indicate how soon we should see improvemnet
but
> > we go back on the 7th to be checked.
> >
> > any help or advise that you can give me would be great.  She did
> just
> > poop for the first time in over a week and has stared urinating
> > regularly.
> >
> > I am so glad to find a group like you for support as I am very
> > concerned.
> >
> > Shannon
> >
>

HAPPY NEW YEAR 2008 TO ALL!  Mom continues to gain weight..now it's
Pumpkin's turn; that my wish for the New Year!



Hugs to all,



Linda , Pumpkin and Max



Linda





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Hello all,



Just as soon as I have time to collect my thoughts after holidays with
family, friends, etc and much travel, trauma and disarray, there is much
that I want to share with the group bec I think it might help some with
kitties' treatments.



Pumpkin and Max send wishes to all for a purrrrrrrrrrfect 2008.



Linda



Linda





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