Hi all; this is a little surprising to me. I take CQ10 because I take Lipitor
and my doctor suggested I take it to avoid muscle cramps in the legs. I've read
elsewhere that it's good for this, but I can't believe it would be suggested by
doctors if it was going to cause arrhythmia in a normal heart. I wonder if
there wasn't something else involved. I have been taking it for a few years
with no side effects that I'm aware of, and would then think that it would be OK
for healthy cats too. Judi and Max
To: feline-heart@...: rzivorad@...: Sun, 4 May 2008
13:59:40 +0000Subject: [FH] Re: Is there value in supplementing "healthy" cats?
Hi Sandy!My cat suffers from dilated cardiomyopathy and I have been giving
her30mg of C0Q10 daily, for months now. I am sure it works well for her. Ialso
have a friend whose wife has been using it for months (Coxsackievirus damaged
her heart), with great result. But... I am also member ofCats Forum at
about.com. There, I suggested the use of CoQ10 to a ladywhich cat also suffers
from heart disease. Then another lady almostkilled me (joke, of course) because
of my "irresponsible suggestion".She said that she used CoQ10, having the
intention to improve heralready healthy heart. Epilogue: she acquired strong
heart arrhythmia,which was confirmed by wearing Holter monitor. It reversed when
shediscontinued CoQ10.Moral of this story: You cant make healthy organ more
healthy by anymeans. Trying to do this you can easily spoil it. It is known that
CoQ10is essential for heart. The lack of it can cause heart muscle weaken.
Inhealthy beings, when all nutrients are present, body makes it foritself. It is
proven fact that patients with heart disease haveinsufficient level of CoQ10.
What when CoQ10 is in excess? Nobody reallyknows, I told you just one
story.Regards, Deda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I just read this article and WOW! it may explain our Max's terrific condition;
I hope so. If anyone has a cat who may have gone into heart failure after
steroid use, please read this...it's pretty amazing and offers a lot of hope for
a good recovery. thanks to Cindy for sending it...Judi and Max (and John and
Angle Cleo)
To: feline-heart@...: challigan2@...: Sun, 4 May 2008
12:24:42 -0400Subject: [FH] Interesting article that mentions CHF, IBD and
steroid use
Hi everyone, I came across this article that discusses heart failure, IBD and
steroids.http://www.harpsie.com/colitis_ibd.htm#ibd_treatmentsCindy[Non-text
portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi all.
We just got back from the "new" vet. He spent over an hour with us,
answering all types of questions. He was very knowledgable about CRF,
treatments, etc., and didn't ever once seem to think doing anything
was a waste.
I dropped off all of Milo's info this morning (CBC, urinalaysis,
ultrasound, daily logs, etc.) so he could look them over before the
appt. Now is where I need some advice.
His advice is to put Milo on IV therapy for a day or two to bring his
BUN (now about 50) down to "normal". The IV would also contain
antibiotics, B12, and anti-nausea meds. Once his BUN is normal he
thinks I can discontinue subQs and probably the Zofran. I would need
to keep him on k/d, binders, and Pepcid. Then we would recheck in a
month or so, but he thought it was likely this would help him live a
lot longer. He also thought doing this would help out his anemia.
I understand how this could work (IV therapy was something Milo never
got at dx 8 weeks ago), but how does it eliminate having to do subQs?
He told me that he just had a cat recently who had this done (his BUN
was about 200) and he lasted 8 months before his BUN went up again
(and that time the IV did not work to lower his BUN).
I'm a little confused but may be willing to try it but is he trying to
sell me some magic beans here? I mean if there is renal compromise
and he is peeing out too much of his fluids then he will get
dehydrated regardless of his BUN, right? He gave me an estimate of
$800 for 3 days of IVs but said he would probably just need one day.
Milo has HCM with a 3-4/6 murmur and is on Benazapril and Diltiazem.
I understand there is a risk of CHF with IV therapy. The vet
specified that he be on Constant Rate Infusion but I don't know if
that makes a difference.
Thanks,
Don & Milo
hi Don,
I have to chime in here a little about the IV treatment. Having had
3 CRF/heart kitties in the past 5 years, I've pretty much seen about
everything. Maybe there are other members who will disagree with
me, but I just wanted to put my two cents worth out there too,
having gone down this road too many times before.
IV treatment will NOT be a permanent thing. It's like intenstive
subQ treatment, but because it's a slow constant rate of infusion,
and it's directly into the vein, it supposedly "works" better than
subQ's do. I'm not totally convinced of that. The main thing that
I'd worry about is that any kind of fluid therapy on a heart kitty
is dangerous. There's always, always the chance that it will be too
much and send them into congestive heart failure. Giving IV therapy
can be a life saver for a CRF kitty that has really high BUN and
Creatinine, but I just don't see the need for it in a cat who's BUN
is only 50. That's kind of overkill with the fluid therapy in my
opinion.
Our Snowball has had BUN in the 40's to 60's for two years and we do
subQ's on her once a day, 100mls, sometimes less depending on how
her heart is doing, and her BUN has been pretty much in the mid 40's
and Creatinine in low 3's most of that time, so we figure it's for
the most part somewhat under control, as much as it can be with her
heart issues.
IV therapy does not eliminate the need for subQ fluids, it only gets
the kidney values back to a more normal range so that you can try to
maintain those levels. There are no guarantees that IV therapy is
going to institute a "cure" for any amount of time. Just because he
had one cat who's BUN was 200 and was able to go without fluids for
so many months, doesn't mean that the same thing is true for
another. It's a very individual process and result. Every cat will
take to fluid therapy differently. Some do great, other's don't even
respond at all, and there's really no way to say that it'll work the
same for every cat. That's just not so.
>>
I mean if there is renal compromise and he is peeing out too much of
his fluids then he will get dehydrated regardless of his BUN, right?
>>
Yes, you're absolutely right. Regardless of how much fluids the cat
gets, he will still be peeing out too much, because the kidneys are
still mostly not operating well. By the time CRF is even noticed,
when the BUN and Creatinine get elevated, the kidney has already
lost up to 75% of it's function, and it can never be repaired. The
cat's kidney's have the ability to function on a very small
percentage of the organ being intact and healthy. That's why it's
such an insidious disease, and by the time you find out about it,
their kidneys are already down to only 1/4 of their ability to
function. All you can do at that point, outside of a miracle, is
maintain them with fluid therapy (subQ's or IV), and treat the
symptoms of nausea, vomiting, etc., with medicines or herbs or
whatever mode you choose.
If it was us with Snowball and her heart stuff (HCM, also a #3
murmur, and mitral regurgitation), I wouldn't do any IV therapy, but
just keep on doing subQ's and the anti nausea medications. Unless
this is a last stitch effort for a cat in end stage renal failure, I
really think doing IV therapy on a heart kitty is just too dangerous.
Are you on any of the CRF groups? You might post there too and see
what those folks have to say. These are the 3 that we belong to. The
first one is a huge group, pretty much into allopathic western
medicine. The other two are small groups who also embrace holistic
modalities.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Feline-CRF-Support/http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Caring-for-CRF-Felines/http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/FelineCRF/
hugs,
Carol and Puddy Boo Punkie MeanMama Misty Snowball and Chelsea
(angels Fritzy Sweetie Ducky Bouncer and Muffy)
"I know you're there...a breath away's not far to where you are."
I'm going to respond to this at length later, but biochemically speaking,
it's unlikely that excess q10 would cause the kind of problems mentioned by
the original poster. Co-q10 functions in electron transport, whatever is in
excess is typically excreted.
Lisa
On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Judi Levens <casaobelisco@...>
wrote:
> Hi all; this is a little surprising to me. I take CQ10 because I take
> Lipitor and my doctor suggested I take it to avoid muscle cramps in the
> legs. I've read elsewhere that it's good for this, but I can't believe it
> would be suggested by doctors if it was going to cause arrhythmia in a
> normal heart. I wonder if there wasn't something else involved. I have been
> taking it for a few years with no side effects that I'm aware of, and would
> then think that it would be OK for healthy cats too. Judi and Max
>
> To: feline-heart@... <feline-heart%40yahoogroups.comFrom>:
> rzivorad@... <rzivorad%40yahoo.comDate>: Sun, 4 May 2008
> 13:59:40 +0000Subject: [FH] Re: Is there value in supplementing "healthy"
> cats?
>
> Hi Sandy!My cat suffers from dilated cardiomyopathy and I have been giving
> her30mg of C0Q10 daily, for months now. I am sure it works well for her.
> Ialso have a friend whose wife has been using it for months (Coxsackievirus
> damaged her heart), with great result. But... I am also member ofCats Forum
> at about.com. There, I suggested the use of CoQ10 to a ladywhich cat also
> suffers from heart disease. Then another lady almostkilled me (joke, of
> course) because of my "irresponsible suggestion".She said that she used
> CoQ10, having the intention to improve heralready healthy heart. Epilogue:
> she acquired strong heart arrhythmia,which was confirmed by wearing Holter
> monitor. It reversed when shediscontinued CoQ10.Moral of this story: You
> cant make healthy organ more healthy by anymeans. Trying to do this you can
> easily spoil it. It is known that CoQ10is essential for heart. The lack of
> it can cause heart muscle weaken. Inhealthy beings, when all nutrients are
> present, body makes it foritself. It is proven fact that patients with heart
> disease haveinsufficient level of CoQ10. What when CoQ10 is in excess?
> Nobody reallyknows, I told you just one story.Regards, Deda
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Judi!
Remember sentence "I told you just one story"? The lady whom I
mentioned was quite certain that her troubles had come from CoQ10,
because after she had discontinued it, her problems disappeared. She
tried it again, with the same result, and then she discontinued it
forever.
You suppose that you are healthy, but how can you be sure? Maybe you
have low level of CoQ10 in your body, which is signaled by your legs
muscles' cramps. Maybe long-term use of it preserved your heart, and you
were not aware of it. Who knows? I am just one more layman. The lack of
CoQ10 is documented in patients with heart failure. Its influence on
so-called "healthy" people was not investigated. By the way,
whom do we regard healthy – one without clinical symptoms of
disease, or that one whose complete body works properly. Anyway, I won't
be surprised if, one day, they start to use blood level of this coenzyme
to predict heart failure.
Kindest regards from Deda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Cindy!
I use the term expert to indicate person who is the most knowledgeable
in some area. No doubt that Mr Douglas Bronstad deserves that. The
therapy which is described in the article cured my cat from IBD!
Homeopathic methods didn't work, dietary changes failed completely.
Generally, you are quite right about pharmaceutical companies. You share
opinion with my son (or vice versa), who avers that pharmaceutical
companies don't want to discover medications which will really cure most
of known diseases (instead of just keeping us alive), because then they
can't sell us these (unduly expensive) medications.
I think that, in the case of IBD, probiotics supplement wasn't mentioned
deliberately, because in IBD gut flora (consisting of bacteria, of
course) usually overgrows, and my attack liver and pancreas through
common bile duct. The goal is to suppress it, not to recover it. In most
cases of cholangiohepatitis, there is concurrent IBD present.
When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you said
that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good reason,
because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can take
place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.
All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it! Thank
you.
Many regards from Deda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There is no such magic thing, especially vitamin mix, that can help
reverse heart disease which is caught so late. I simply don't understand
you people who don't watch your fur kids carefully. Four times enlarged
heart must have produced obvious clinical sign of disease (rapid
breathing and shallow breath, exercise intolerance and so on). Lasix is
OK, and cardiologist will say the final word after he performs
echosonography. Prey to God to help your Onyx, now it's all in his
hands.
I wish I am wrong.
Best wishes to your Onyx from Deda
actually you are wrong to say that long term use of steroids dont
have serious adverse effects of cats. steroids lower immunity thus
making the cat unable to fight infection just like in people. the
risk for diabeties and ulcers are also increased. steroids can
exacerbate heart disease. many experienced vets also give yearly
vaccinations but we know that isnt safe for our pets. i am glad to
hear that your cat hasnt had adverse reactions to steroids but that
is not always the case and steroids should be used with caution in my
opinion.
>^..^<
katy & belle
> When I told you that it was wrong to discontinue corticosteroids, it
> wasn't because I thought you did it too fast. It was because you
said
> that you had done it fearing of adverse effects. That's not good
reason,
> because when the therapy is discontinued too early, recurrence can
take
> place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't
have
> serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term
use of
> prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect
(it
> could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that
even
> long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets,
which
> articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.
>
> All in all, I appreciate your message and I enjoyed reading it!
Thank
> you.
>
> Many regards from Deda
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Hi Deda,
Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
> serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use
of
> prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
> could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
> long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets,
which
> articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.
I have to strongly dispute the statement above as I have a much
different experience with my kitty Jasmin and prednisolone.
Jasmin, 3 yrs old now, has a neurological condition called
demylineating neuropathy. It is an auto-immune disease that came
immediately after the FeLV vax and anaesthesia/spay done at the same
time with a previous caregiver. This was diagnosed by a neurologist.
The symptoms are severe ataxia, eventual limb paralysis, twitching,
thin coat, etc.. Of course her people then returned her to a shelter.
The only allopathic treatment is prednisolone. The neurologist put her
on a six mth treatment course of it. She is still on it after one year.
He told me of side effects. She has them. Her bladder walls have
thickened (common side effect), debris in her urine. It also is very
hard on the heart and her heart is checked periodically. She is being
weaned off of it but damage has been done by prolonged prednisolone
therapy. It did however, relieve the symptoms for the most part until
recently.
Now she goes to an integrative vet, along with the neurologist and we
will be trying alternative methods and supplements.
I truly wish that I'd never agreed to her being put on the prednisolone
for a prolonged period of time.
I'm glad the pred worked for your little one with no side effects. My
experience with it is the opposite.
El
Bonita,
I posted a reply but don't see it so will post another. I apologize
if this is a repeat.
I'm sorry Onyx was diagnosed with HCM. I'm glad you found this group.
It is always a difficult time emotionally immediately after diagnosis.
The post below is NOT indicative of the group, and I'm sorry it was
posted. Many, many cats aren't diagnosed with heart disease until
they go into Congestive Heart Failure (CHF). Many are diagnosed
because the vet hears a heart murmur, and not by any clinical
symptoms. My cat Luigi was diagnosed with a heart murmur by a vet
that I took him to on the way home from adopting him. A subsequent
cardiac ultrasound indicated advanced HCM. That was 2 years ago.
There have been some rough times, but he's better again and by
looking at him, no one would ever know he had heart disease.
With the right meds, Many cats live for years with HCM, and some
don't. No one knows why.
I'm glad you're seeing a cardiologist soon. A cardiac ultrasound is
also important. I'm sure he'll recommend it and start Onyx on heart
meds.
There isn't a vitamin mix that I know of but many members here have
their cats on supplements. Those are CoEnzyme Q10, L-Carnitine, DMG,
and Taurine. Some members also use Nattokinase. There's much info
regarding these in the archives but if you'd like dosages just ask.
I'm sure there's info on them in the Files section also.
If you have any questions, please ask.
Please keep us posted.
Take care...El
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "rzivorad" <rzivorad@...> wrote:
>
> There is no such magic thing, especially vitamin mix, that can help
> reverse heart disease which is caught so late. I simply don't
understand
> you people who don't watch your fur kids carefully. Four times
enlarged
> heart must have produced obvious clinical sign of disease (rapid
> breathing and shallow breath, exercise intolerance and so on).
Lasix is
> OK, and cardiologist will say the final word after he performs
> echosonography. Prey to God to help your Onyx, now it's all in his
> hands.
>
> I wish I am wrong.
>
> Best wishes to your Onyx from Deda
>
Hi everyone,
As a moderator of the group, most of the time my duties lie in trying
to keep an eye out for spam and deleting the offending members who
post it. But tonight I wanted to respond to Deda's post below as your
moderator, and nip this in the bud before it turns into something more
unpleasant.
Deda, I know you're trying to help with sharing your knowledge about
HCM, but please be kind in your replies to members. Making a
statement like "I simply don't understand you people who don't watch
your fur kids carefully" isn't within the spirit of this group. We
endeavor to not be judgemental of other members, keeping in mind that
emotions run high with what we all have to go through in taking care
of our kitties, and reading something in written word is difficult at
best to know in what context a person means in what they wrote. You
can't see the person or hear their voice to know if what was written
was meant to be said in a helpful way or not, and often times when
we're at the end of our ropes, it's easy to misunderstand the spirit
in which something was said.
We are all just trying to do the best we can, and some of us aren't
as experienced as other are. To those who are so very new with
dealing with this disease, symptoms if they are indeed present, may
not be noticed by the novice caretaker. In the future please keep
that in mind and try to not judge someone for something that to you
may seem obvious.
Let us all just be aware of each others feelings and be kind. I think
we all would appreciate if this discussion ends here. We have bigger
things to be concerned about with our kitties.
Hang in there everyone.
Thank you.
Carol
Moderator, feline-heart
The use of steroids for IBD cats is really a cat by cat decision. I
have been a member of the IBD group for about a year although since
Josie was also diagnosed with heart disease I havent been there much. I
am glad that I personally chose to steer away from the use of regular
steroids as they would be detrimental to Josies heart condition, they
promote fluid retention and Josie has been having serious problems with
that lately. I use supplements and food changes and most recently a
long course of antibiotics to help with a recurring underlying
infection and Josie's IBD is much better. She was not a regular vomiter
but had constant diarreah. I think the food changes helped her the
most. So while many people have no choice after trying everything else,
to use steroids, each case is different and I think the fewer meds we
can get by using the better. I already spend 24/7 administering meds,
supplements and feedings to Josie, its a good thing I have no life.....
Kendall and Josie
My girl Tiger died in 2006 due to CHF, she was misdiagnosed with
asthma and was treated with steroids and fluids, and my vet was
clueless. I wish I had known there was a possibility she had heart
disease but my vet never thought of it. I took it upon myself to
learn all I could and am glad I did as Josie was diagnosed less than
a year later with HCM. Josie was also misdiagnosed with CRF for which
we gave her fluids which she soon couldnt tolerate, and had already
been being treated for IBD. I did short 3 day courses of pred when
she had flareups but refused to go the longer route til I had
explored all other options. Now I know it was not CRF but kidney
stones and she also has had cholangiohepatitus and hepadic
encephalopathies (thought to be strokes at the time)and a morning she
almost died of a heart attack which I now believe was an acute
pancreatic attack. Her medicine regime is complicated as each one can
affect the other condition so we have to pick and choose carefully.
Kendall and Josie (who is feeling a bit listless right now going over
another bump in her road and needs warm thoughts for continued
strength.)
-- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Judi Levens <casaobelisco@...>
wrote:
>
> I just read this article and WOW! it may explain our Max's terrific
condition; I hope so. If anyone has a cat who may have gone into
heart failure after steroid use, please read this...it's pretty
amazing and offers a lot of hope for a good recovery. thanks to
Cindy for sending it...Judi and Max (and John and Angle Cleo)
>
>
> To: feline-heart@...: challigan2@...: Sun, 4 May 2008 12:24:42 -
0400Subject: [FH] Interesting article that mentions CHF, IBD and
steroid use
>
>
>
>
> Hi everyone, I came across this article that discusses heart
failure, IBD and
steroids.http://www.harpsie.com/colitis_ibd.htm#ibd_treatmentsCindy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
It was both the cardiologist who started the South Beach Diet, and my
"alternative" physician, who is a cardiologist and a specialist in hormones who
told me that the use of CQ10 in conjunction with Lipitor is recommended. I
would take their advice over the lady who told you a story...sorry...Judi
To: feline-heart@...: rzivorad@...: Tue, 6 May 2008
02:00:46 +0000Subject: [FH] Re: Is there value in supplementing "healthy" cats?
Hi Judi!Remember sentence "I told you just one story"? The lady whom Imentioned
was quite certain that her troubles had come from CoQ10,because after she had
discontinued it, her problems disappeared. Shetried it again, with the same
result, and then she discontinued itforever.You suppose that you are healthy,
but how can you be sure? Maybe youhave low level of CoQ10 in your body, which is
signaled by your legsmuscles' cramps. Maybe long-term use of it preserved your
heart, and youwere not aware of it. Who knows? I am just one more layman. The
lack ofCoQ10 is documented in patients with heart failure. Its influence
onso-called "healthy" people was not investigated. By the way,whom do we regard
healthy – one without clinical symptoms ofdisease, or that one whose complete
body works properly. Anyway, I won'tbe surprised if, one day, they start to use
blood level of this coenzymeto predict heart failure.Kindest regards from
Deda[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Freedom,
I don't knoe if anyone has already answered your post or not, but I just saw
it and thought I would give you some info.
Poor, Baggins! What a tough little guy he must be to endure all that he has.
What a wonderful thing you did for him by adopting him. First, CRF and heart
problems often go hand in hand. Since Baggins is in beginning CRF, he should be
able to handle the meds OK. I had a kitty with both CRF and RCM (restricive
cardiomyopathy) and he handled the duiretics and heart meds pretty well. Some
vets get very nervous giving duiretics to a CRF kitty, but it must be done if
there is CHF. Remember this, the heart always trumps the kidneys. If the heart
isn't working, it won't matter how the kidneys are functioning.
If you have a vet cardiologist that you can go to, that would be best. Baggins
needs an echocardiogram to figure out what type of heart problems he has. Each
type of heart problem is treated differently, especially with CRF as a
consideration. My kitty, Alec, was given enalapril for his heart because it was
easier on the kidneys.
Yes, kitties with serious health problems can get depressed. Given that
Baggins is in a new place, probably doesn't know his way around very well and
has new fur-siblings, I would think his stress-o-meter is on high. The best
thing you can do is give hime lots of love and attention, if he will take it.
Maybe a room to himself for a while might be a good idea too until he gets used
to his surroundings. I have not had a blind kitty before so I am not sure on the
best protocol for him but I would think getting to know the space little by
little would be better. Maybe others with experience on this could chime in.
There are some supplements that you could give him like taurine, l-carnitine
and especially CoEnzyme Q10, that we recommend for kitties with heart problems.
If you need more info on this, just ask.
Please do not hesitate to ask any questions, even if they aren't heart related
because they often are. Keep us updated on Baggins too. He sounds like quite a
special boy.
Leah and her cats and Angel Alec
blackbeltmouse <freedom.chevalier@...> wrote:
I originally joined this group, because of my 2year old Siamese cross,
ZiZou, who is on Atelenol and remais asymtematic.
We've recently adopted one of our fosters, who is 14, blind (as a
result of Glaucoma) and missing and eye, and deaf. We had bloodwork
done and his results have come back - he's in the initial stages of
CRF. In addition to this, he was diagnosed with a Heart Murmer (grade
3) and appears to be in Congestive Heart Failure. He's coughing and
sounds like he has a cold, but doesn't have one. He's going on special
food, supplements and we go in for x-rays and deeper anaylsis tonight.
I feel sooo bad for him - along will all of his health issues, he's
trying to adapt from living with his previous owners (for his entire
life) as an only cat, to our very busy multi-critter home.
Can any talk on the issue of spirit/emotional state of cats with cong
heart failure? Do you find they become depressed or withdrawn? I'm
looking for 'signs' that he might be in distress. We don't know him
very well, and we so deraly want to do what is the best for him.
Any insight is appreciated.
freedom
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
hi Freedom,
I'm glad you found the group. Sorry that Baggins is having such a
hard time of it.
CRF and HCM/CHF kitties have a rougher time of it, but you can treat
both diseases pretty well and have them feeling better. It's just
learning to balance the CRF with heart problems. Leah is so right
about the heart being first in importance. You have to treat the
heart first and then deal with the CRF as best you can. Since
Baggins is in the "early stages" of CRF, it should be easier for you
to balance the two.
Are you taking him to a cardiologist? If not, it would be a good
idea to do that. Getting an ultrasound of the heart will give you a
lot more information about how his heart is doing, and the
cardiologist can prescribe the appropriate medication for him.
Can you tell us what his kidney values are? The BUN, Creatinine,
Phosphorus, Potassium, HCT or PCV are the ones that are kidney
related. Also the liver values (ALT and ALK Phos) can be affected
when there are kidney problems.
In addition to the supplements that Leah mentioned (taurine, l-
carnitine and CoQ10), there are a couple more that may help...DMG
(dimethylglycine) and heart glandulars can also be helpful for heart
kitties.
Please let us know what the vet said about his xrays.
Take care,
Carol and Snowball and the gang
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "blackbeltmouse"
<freedom.chevalier@...> wrote:
We had bloodwork done and his results have come back - he's in the
initial stages of CRF. In addition to this, he was diagnosed with a
Heart Murmer (grade 3) and appears to be in Congestive Heart
Failure. He's coughing and sounds like he has a cold, but doesn't
have one. He's going on special food, supplements and we go in for x-
rays and deeper anaylsis tonight.
I forgot to mention about the depression. I really do think that
kitties get depressed and have emotional issues when they're sick,
in new places, etc., just like people do. Our Snowball has had a
terrible time of it since she got sick last October. You can look
at her and just see in her face that she's upset. Her body language
is off too. She'll kind of mope around the house, not interested in
anything, won't play, won't sit with us.
I started giving her some flower essences. You might try that with
Baggins. Flower essences are very safe and can really help
sometimes. You can try something like Bach's Rescue Remedy, or
there are individual flower essences that you can try alone or mix
together. You choose the FE depending on the personality and
symptoms. Here is some info on how to do that and what things FE's
are used for.
These are from the Flower Essence Society.
Frequentyly Asked Questions:
http://www.fesflowers.com/faq_essences.htm#e1
Selecting and using FE's:
http://www.fesflowers.com/using.htm
North American flower essences:
http://www.fesflowers.com/FES_Quintessentials1.htm
Bach's English healing essences:
http://www.fesflowers.com/healing_herbs1.htm
Right now we're doing a combination of Gentian, Gorse, Olive,
California Wild Rose and Borage. I really can see a difference in
her attitude since I've been using these on her.
You can dose FE's directly from the stock bottle you buy or make a
remedy from that in another bottle by adding 3 to 5 drops of the FE
to an ounce of spring water. Do not use tap water or distilled
water. Use a dark colored, glass dropper bottle, and sterilize it
before you use it by boiling the glass parts in water for about 30
seconds. Then the first time you make the remedy you shake the
bottle hard, pounding it on the palm of your hand 100 times. This is
called succussing. After that when you dose, you succuss the bottle
about 20 times before each use. This "activates" the energy in the
flower essence. You give a few drops each time you dose, and you
can start the dose by giving it once every 15 minutes for 4 doses,
then you can see how he is after that. We give Snowball her FE's 3
times a day now. You can mix it in their food, water, or give it in
their mouth or just rub it into their skin. The calming point on a
cat is in the middle of the top of the head, between the ears. You
can put a few drops at that point and rub it in with little circular
motions to make sure it gets to touching the skin and not just on
the fur. Massaging that calming point alone can help too. When
Snowball gets her acupuncture treatments, the first needle they put
in is in that calming point on the top of her head.
If you touch the end of the dropper to anything, make sure you rinse
it off in very hot or boiling water to sterilize it afterwards
before you put the dropper back in the bottle.
If you can get some Rescue Remedy, I might give that a try on
Baggins first and see if it helps him. Sometimes Rescue Remedy
works really well, other times I find that we need to make our own
combination.
Hope this helps.
Carol and Snowball and the gang
Hi Deda,
I have been a member of this list for almost 6 years and I cannot tell you how
many people have joined because of a cat in heart failure following a steriod
shot. I think heart failure qualifies as a serious side effect.
Shannon
---- rzivorad <rzivorad@...> wrote:
> place. Besides, corticosteroids like prednisone/prednisolone don't have
> serious adverse effects on cats. I have experience with long-term use of
> prednisone in my cat and I really didn't notice any adverse effect (it
> could be increased appetite, maybe, but she is so poor eater that even
> long-term use of prednisone doesn't help). Many experienced vets, which
> articles on corticosteroid therapy I read, assert the same.
> Many regards from Deda
When Max first came home from 2 days on oxygen at the emergency vet's he was
definitely scared, a little lost, and a little standoffish. We tried lots of
things to get through to him; we brought him lots of tempting things to get him
eating again, we spent a lot of time with him, and of course at first we were
very emotional and afraid ourselves about losing him. I got the clear message
from him that he didn't want us upset, but he wanted us nearby. We started
spending more time with him, just reading or being nearby, sometimes lying down
(he loves to walk on us) but not focusing totally on him...just being there for
him. This seemed to do it for him...he grew to EXPECT us to be available; he
doesn't like us to leave him now although of course we have to. But, it really
improved his recovery mood. He started to feel safe again after the "attack"
which happened to him in emergency (and saved his life, but it had to be very
frightening to be in the oxygen chamber for 48 hours and not being able to
breathe for a good part of that time, with lots of other emergency animals being
treated nearby.) I think they sense a lot of what we're feeling, so I try to be
careful not to be too worried around him, to just feel the pleasure I get from
being with him. I think he'll always have a little memory of the fear he felt
in CHF, and since he's a little asthmatic he still loses his breath sometimes
for a short time, but I think he's grown to trust us again.
Baggins has the added problem of having been abandoned by his owners when he
needed them, but given his great need now, he may be very receptive to your
loving care once he gets familiar with his surroundings. You are so good to
help him, and he will feel your good intentions and respond to them in time.
Again...good luck and thank you for being such a fine person.
Oh yes, another thing we started, (which he didn't like before) is lots of
brushing...he loves it now, and it helps to keep his fur a little less dry.
Judi and Max (and John and Angel Cleo)
To: feline-heart@...: carolroars@...: Tue, 6 May
2008 14:44:28 +0000Subject: [FH] Re: Baggins
I forgot to mention about the depression. I really do think that kitties get
depressed and have emotional issues when they're sick, in new places, etc., just
like people do. Our Snowball has had a terrible time of it since she got sick
last October. You can look at her and just see in her face that she's upset. Her
body language is off too. She'll kind of mope around the house, not interested
in anything, won't play, won't sit with us. I started giving her some flower
essences. You might try that with Baggins. Flower essences are very safe and can
really help sometimes. You can try something like Bach's Rescue Remedy, or there
are individual flower essences that you can try alone or mix together. You
choose the FE depending on the personality and symptoms. Here is some info on
how to do that and what things FE's are used for. These are from the Flower
Essence Society.Frequentyly Asked
Questions:http://www.fesflowers.com/faq_essences.htm#e1Selecting and using
FE's:http://www.fesflowers.com/using.htmNorth American flower
essences:http://www.fesflowers.com/FES_Quintessentials1.htmBach's English
healing essences:http://www.fesflowers.com/healing_herbs1.htmRight now we're
doing a combination of Gentian, Gorse, Olive, California Wild Rose and Borage. I
really can see a difference in her attitude since I've been using these on her.
You can dose FE's directly from the stock bottle you buy or make a remedy from
that in another bottle by adding 3 to 5 drops of the FE to an ounce of spring
water. Do not use tap water or distilled water. Use a dark colored, glass
dropper bottle, and sterilize it before you use it by boiling the glass parts in
water for about 30 seconds. Then the first time you make the remedy you shake
the bottle hard, pounding it on the palm of your hand 100 times. This is called
succussing. After that when you dose, you succuss the bottle about 20 times
before each use. This "activates" the energy in the flower essence. You give a
few drops each time you dose, and you can start the dose by giving it once every
15 minutes for 4 doses, then you can see how he is after that. We give Snowball
her FE's 3 times a day now. You can mix it in their food, water, or give it in
their mouth or just rub it into their skin. The calming point on a cat is in the
middle of the top of the head, between the ears. You can put a few drops at that
point and rub it in with little circular motions to make sure it gets to
touching the skin and not just on the fur. Massaging that calming point alone
can help too. When Snowball gets her acupuncture treatments, the first needle
they put in is in that calming point on the top of her head.If you touch the end
of the dropper to anything, make sure you rinse it off in very hot or boiling
water to sterilize it afterwards before you put the dropper back in the
bottle.If you can get some Rescue Remedy, I might give that a try on Baggins
first and see if it helps him. Sometimes Rescue Remedy works really well, other
times I find that we need to make our own combination.Hope this helps.Carol and
Snowball and the gang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Judi is so right about this. They really do feel what we're feeling, and any
anxiousness or us being upset did upset Snowball too. It's really hard for me
to not be upset around her when she's feeling so bad, but I try to think good
things and bring up the mood as best I can.
We do the same thing with Snowball, spending nice quality time with her, and I
think it takes her mind off of being sick and depressed too. Sometimes when I
get up in the morning at 6am and she's looking kind of spewey, like she's going
to throw up any minute, I'll take out her favorite toy, this cat dancer thing,
and start playing with her to get her mind off of her tummy. Most of the time
it works! She begins to feel better and the playing somehow changes the brain
chemistry I think...sends out those feel good endorphins and not so much of the
tummy ache, throw up ones! I don't know for sure, but sometimes when I can get
her to play, I really think it takes her mind off of her tummy, and any day that
she doesn't spew is a good day!
I'm sure Baggins is probably feeling you being worried about him, so just try
the best you can to be up around him. Judi mentioned the brushing... for us and
Snowball it's music. For some unknown reason she actually likes the sound of my
voice! Steve and I sing the beginning of "you raise me up" (that Josh Groban
song) to her and she gets all happy and purring! Go figure... but whatever
works, I say.
hugs,
Carol and Snowball and the gang
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deda,
I just have to say that your post is not the caring, supportive way in which
we welcome new members to our group.
Bonita clearly loves her kitty and is heartbroken over his illness. She did
not ask for a magic potion, she asked if there are any vitamins that may
help.
I am personally offended by your comment "I simply don't understand you
people who don't watch your fur kids carefully." For your information her
kitty Onyx had no obvious clinical signs.of heart disease and you would
never know he was not well..
Please keep your replies supportive, caring and compassionate, if you can
not then maybe you should not send them. Please think about the others
persons feelings before you hit send and how you would feel receiving such a
reply.
And by the way, steroids may have serious adverse effects on cats especially
cats with heart disease.
I'm so sorry you had to read that post Bonita..
Candace
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 10:22 PM, rzivorad <rzivorad@...> wrote:
> There is no such magic thing, especially vitamin mix, that can help
> reverse heart disease which is caught so late. I simply don't understand
> you people who don't watch your fur kids carefully. Four times enlarged
> heart must have produced obvious clinical sign of disease (rapid
> breathing and shallow breath, exercise intolerance and so on). Lasix is
> OK, and cardiologist will say the final word after he performs
> echosonography. Prey to God to help your Onyx, now it's all in his
> hands.
>
> I wish I am wrong.
>
> Best wishes to your Onyx from Deda
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 10:22 PM, rzivorad <rzivorad@...> wrote:
> "There is no such magic thing, especially vitamin mix, that can help
> reverse heart disease which is caught so late."
>
Untrue. At least one cat here underwent marked remodeling of the heart
after supplementation, many others experienced a significant period of time
in which the heart did not increase in size. Most of the cats around here
regularly outlive their prognoses because of these supplements.
> "I simply don't understand you people who don't watch your fur kids
> carefully."
>
Well, I don't understand people who post less than supportive messages on a
support group, so we're even. Feel better about yourself now?
> "Four times enlarged heart must have produced obvious clinical sign of
> disease (rapid breathing and shallow breath, exercise intolerance and so
> on)."
>
> Not always, but even when it does -- so? My Baby Boy was in about the
> same shape as this cat when he was diagnosed, and he'd been for a regularly
> scheduled wellness check just a few months before. It's entirely possible
> for them to go from asymptomatic to symptomatic overnight.
>
> Lisa
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my Burmese Q-tip was diagnosed with RC after one vist to the vets
office where she had a very enlarged heart and lungs 3/4 full of
fluid. 24 hours before she had shown no symptoms, and was running and
playing in the house. These things can come on suddenly and almost
systomatically. She did survive for a year and a half after diagnosis
as well.
--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Bonita" <bl.richter@...> wrote:
>
> My cat, Onyx, (a European Burmese) was diagnosed yesterday with
> Hypertrophic Cardiomypathy. We are hearbroken :(( His heart is
very
> large, about 4x the size of a normal cat's. He is 4 years old.
>
> The vet put him on Lasix, and we are taking him to a cardiologist
this
> week to have him further evaluated.
>
> My question is is there a vitamin mix that other have used that have
> helped prolong their cat's life?
>
> Any advice you can give us will be much appreciated.
>
---
yes, there is supplements that will help extend and improve their
quality of life. We cannot cure it, but we can give most of them a
good quality life.
Use Nattokinase 50mg daily. This is a clot preventer. If you are
using aspirin or another blood thinner, do not use natto as it does
the same thing.
Coenzyme 30mg to start.........this will help strengthen the heart.
Give these supplements a couple of weeks to a month and you will start
to notice a difference.
Good luck
Cathy
In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "froggymeowmeow"
<kimberly.cannon@...> wrote:
>
> my Burmese Q-tip was diagnosed with RC after one vist to the vets
> office where she had a very enlarged heart and lungs 3/4 full of
> fluid. 24 hours before she had shown no symptoms, and was running and
> playing in the house. These things can come on suddenly and almost
> systomatically. She did survive for a year and a half after diagnosis
> as well.
>
> --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Bonita" <bl.richter@> wrote:
> >
> > My cat, Onyx, (a European Burmese) was diagnosed yesterday with
> > Hypertrophic Cardiomypathy. We are hearbroken :(( His heart is
> very
> > large, about 4x the size of a normal cat's. He is 4 years old.
> >
> > The vet put him on Lasix, and we are taking him to a cardiologist
> this
> > week to have him further evaluated.
> >
> > My question is is there a vitamin mix that other have used that have
> > helped prolong their cat's life?
> >
> > Any advice you can give us will be much appreciated.
> >
>
---
My cat, Jinx............has lived with HCM with obstruction now for 5
years!!!
Yes, supplements work. Jinx went in with a level 5 murmur and severe
cardiomypathy. He now has no murmur and his HCM has been reversed to
a beginning stage...............all with supplements. Altenol also
helps the process because it will slow the heart down.
DO NOT be discouraged!!! Do your best............
Hugs
Cathy
In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa Clarizia" <lclarizia@...> wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 10:22 PM, rzivorad <rzivorad@...> wrote:
>
> > "There is no such magic thing, especially vitamin mix, that can help
> > reverse heart disease which is caught so late."
> >
>
>
>
>
> Untrue. At least one cat here underwent marked remodeling of the heart
> after supplementation, many others experienced a significant period
of time
> in which the heart did not increase in size. Most of the cats
around here
> regularly outlive their prognoses because of these supplements.
>
>
> > "I simply don't understand you people who don't watch your fur kids
> > carefully."
> >
>
>
>
> Well, I don't understand people who post less than supportive
messages on a
> support group, so we're even. Feel better about yourself now?
>
> > "Four times enlarged heart must have produced obvious clinical sign of
> > disease (rapid breathing and shallow breath, exercise intolerance
and so
> > on)."
> >
>
>
> > Not always, but even when it does -- so? My Baby Boy was in about the
> > same shape as this cat when he was diagnosed, and he'd been for a
regularly
> > scheduled wellness check just a few months before. It's entirely
possible
> > for them to go from asymptomatic to symptomatic overnight.
> >
>
>
>
>
> > Lisa
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Hello,
I have been so busy I had not read Deda's post until just now. Here is a
synopsis of my Twinkie's HCM story.
Twinkie was the happiest, busiest, funniest cat on the planet. Then, one
morning at 5 am, Sunday, he ate his breakfast and fell over moaning in pain,
unable to move his hind legs. I rushed him to the emergency vets. They
diagnosed HCM- he had thrown a clot. Long story short, he did not recover
and had to be euthanized.
I beat myself up for MONTHS. What did I miss? Why wasn't I more aware, etc.
Then finally, Twinkie's own beautiful Spirit came to me and told me HE did
not want to show me the signs and symptoms, because he just wanted to be
himself for the time he had. So yes, they can slip things past us, no
matter how much we look or how hard we try. So everyone, PLEASE be kind to
each other. We all love our babies and do the best we can. Sometimes THEY
choose not to let us see what's going on inside.
Thank you.
Marcia, Snowflake, Goofy and Angel Twinkie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Can anyone point me to a good cat site that talks about supplements for HCM?
Several people have mentioned Coenzyme but are these recommendations
based on any scientific studies in cats?
Our boy Milo has HCM and a 3-4/6 murmur. I would like to help his
heart out (he is CRF and starting to get anemic, he is on Benzapril
and Diltazem).
Thanks,
Don & Milo
On Tue, May 6, 2008 at 3:18 PM, lorkatz2004 <cbower@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> My cat, Jinx............has lived with HCM with obstruction now for 5
> years!!!
>
> Yes, supplements work. Jinx went in with a level 5 murmur and severe
> cardiomypathy. He now has no murmur and his HCM has been reversed to
> a beginning stage...............all with supplements. Altenol also
> helps the process because it will slow the heart down.
>
> DO NOT be discouraged!!! Do your best............
>
> Hugs
> Cathy
>
> In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa Clarizia" <lclarizia@...> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 10:22 PM, rzivorad <rzivorad@...> wrote:
> >
> > > "There is no such magic thing, especially vitamin mix, that can help
> > > reverse heart disease which is caught so late."
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Untrue. At least one cat here underwent marked remodeling of the heart
> > after supplementation, many others experienced a significant period
> of time
> > in which the heart did not increase in size. Most of the cats
> around here
> > regularly outlive their prognoses because of these supplements.
> >
> >
> > > "I simply don't understand you people who don't watch your fur kids
> > > carefully."
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, I don't understand people who post less than supportive
> messages on a
> > support group, so we're even. Feel better about yourself now?
> >
> > > "Four times enlarged heart must have produced obvious clinical sign of
> > > disease (rapid breathing and shallow breath, exercise intolerance
> and so
> > > on)."
> > >
> >
> >
> > > Not always, but even when it does -- so? My Baby Boy was in about the
> > > same shape as this cat when he was diagnosed, and he'd been for a
> regularly
> > > scheduled wellness check just a few months before. It's entirely
> possible
> > > for them to go from asymptomatic to symptomatic overnight.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Lisa
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
Hi Marcia,
You sounded like a loving cat-mom to Twinkie. Any feline veterinarian will tell
you that cats hide signs of illness as a defence mechanism. In the wild, this
nature protects them from predators. Also you can only work with the current
knowledge you have and since life is a learning process, the knowledge you
gained from those experiences with Twinkie may help you down the road. Take
care,
Cindy
----- Original Message -----
From: Marcia
To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 4:30 PM
Subject: [FH] Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy
Hello,
I have been so busy I had not read Deda's post until just now. Here is a
synopsis of my Twinkie's HCM story.
Twinkie was the happiest, busiest, funniest cat on the planet. Then, one
morning at 5 am, Sunday, he ate his breakfast and fell over moaning in pain,
unable to move his hind legs. I rushed him to the emergency vets. They
diagnosed HCM- he had thrown a clot. Long story short, he did not recover
and had to be euthanized.
I beat myself up for MONTHS. What did I miss? Why wasn't I more aware, etc.
Then finally, Twinkie's own beautiful Spirit came to me and told me HE did
not want to show me the signs and symptoms, because he just wanted to be
himself for the time he had. So yes, they can slip things past us, no
matter how much we look or how hard we try. So everyone, PLEASE be kind to
each other. We all love our babies and do the best we can. Sometimes THEY
choose not to let us see what's going on inside.
Thank you.
Marcia, Snowflake, Goofy and Angel Twinkie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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