Cecil is 11 years old and has Acromegly. He was just DX with HCM, after going
into CHF.  He bounced back quickly and is doing fine. He is on Lasix, Cardizam
and Benzaprile. I hope that he can stay healthy for awhile.  I just don't know
how quickly they slide down hill.  Sometimes, I worry that I will find him dead
when I get home.  I hate this DX! Poor kittie, first the Acro then this!
 
Sandy and Cecil

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Linda,

In a message dated 1/16/09 10:53:10 PM, MekaNoel@... writes:

> His MD called me today and said
> Nikko's BUN was 62 and creatinine was 2.9. Nikko's last blood work
> was in August and I believe the BUN was around 24 and the creatinine
> was around 0.8 or 1 or so. So it has gone up quite a bit. I was
> worried because he was drinking more water.
>
> My question is what should I do now? His cardiologist suggests my
> regular vet do a urine test.
>
I think this is a good idea. The markers to look for with chronic renal
insufficiency are not only BUN and creatinine but also phosphorus, potassium,
calcium, hematocrit/packed cell volume in the blood, plus specific gravity in
the
urine (which with renal problems is often under 1.020 and closer to 1.010). But
there are other reasons why BUN and creatinine rise besides kidney
insufficiency, eg infection, dehydration, diet, and metabolic disorders (eg
hyperT,
diabetes), also some acute problems (eg reaction to toxins, incl medications).
So
it would be important to look in the urine also for things like bacteria, WBC,
protein, and blood. And if you want to post the rest of those blood results
above, or any other that are out of ref range, that would help give a bigger
picture.

>  I asked the Cardiologist about fluids
> and he said they probably weren't necessary yet but I think they are.
> Am I right? His numbers have gone up a lot. He said I have to be
> careful of fluid overload which I realise.
>
It depends in part on Nikko's hydration. Giving subQ with heart disease is a
balancing act...but it might be possible to help Nikko maintain good hydration
with small amts of fluids frequently (like 25mL/day), as opposed to a large
amt less frequently. Another option is increasing oral intake, which we can do
by syringing water in the mouth (if the cat is amenable to that), adding extra
water to meat-based food, or using a fountain, which some cats like. Another
important aspect of hydration...and overall health...is species-appropriate
food with 60-80% moisture, whether higher-quality canned (which typically
contains about 78% water) or fresh food (water content varies). Dry food only
exacerbates the problem since it contains 10% moisture or less and cats are
often
unable to compensate for the lack of moisture.

The rule of thumb from Washington State Univ and Univ of Wisconsin is about
5-10mL subQ per lb body weight per day for maintaining hydration...this is very
general, not for heart cats. So I think if we can get half the amt in orally,
from all sources (water in the food, water added to food, syringed, etc) it
helps with hydration.
>
> I'm really scared this is going to turn out badly.
>
I understand. It's scary stuff. But you will take good care of Nikko as you
did Meka.

> The other issue is I can't give fluids because my vet won't give me
> any until they see the results of the blood work from the
> cardiologist. The only fluids I have is one that is unopened but it
> expired in July of 2008. Would it be ok to use those until I can get
> fluids from the vet?
>
Hmmm. Expiration dates are often pretty conservative...in that they are
usually a random date the mfr chose to test whether the product still met the
specifications the mfr set out. That doesn't mean the product wouldn't still be
good 6 months from exp or 6 yrs from exp. Just that it wasn't tested. That said,
storage and a rash of other factors can influence product integrity, and we
don't know how the mfr tested the product...so I don't know if I'd chance using
expired fluids with an ill cat. I think oral hydration might be a safer route.

Another thing to try is local med supply houses, where you can sometimes buy
one bag of fluids without Rx. Esp if you bring in a photo of your sick cat and
are a little moist around the eyes. I'm not advocating circumventing any
applicable laws. Just saying.

> Also do yo know where I can order fluids online to decrease the cost?
>
Dave Jacobson's site has information about buying fluids and other supplies
at http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/compare.htm . We found that
ordering by the case thru a local pharmacy was actually cheaper than online, b/c
it eliminated shipping cost on 12 x 1000mL of fluid, which is heavy. Brico is
a popular place to buy Terumo needles, which are much preferrable to the
usual Monojects...and b/c they are ultrathin wall, you can use a smaller, more
comfortable gauge and get a comparable flow rate to a larger gauge of a
"regular"
wall needle. // Rosemary
>


**************
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Gail,

In a message dated 1/18/09 11:45:00 AM, galenarizona@... writes:


> 1) With adding 1/8-1/4 tsp in the meal or via a "treat" once a day
> (have more time at night between meds than I do in the morn) how long
> does it take to calm the stomach
>
Very hard to say, depends on the cat's reaction and the amt of inflammation
or nausea or whatever the problem might be and the dose size relative to the
problem. Plant remedies like slippery elm work much diff. than do synthetic
meds, so it's hard to predict.

>  - I think this is the main issue with
> Mommy's lack of food intake. She starts to eat and then pulls away and
> licks her lips excessively like something is caught in her mouth (vet
> looked and couldn't find anything) and then she will walk away from
> the food and smack her lips a couple times (nausea)
>
That does sound like nausea. Lick lipping and the more intense mouth
smacking, even incl gagging or pawing at the mouth, are symptoms. There might
also be
a problem with gastric motility (gastroparesis), which can intensify the
symptoms. The usual test for this is a timed barium x-ray series...but a sharp
radiologist can often figure it out with an ultrasound.

If there's a motility problem on top of nausea, then slippery elm might not
be powerful enough, tho it can certainly help. I'm not pushing drugs, but some
other options to consider are metoclopramide (Reglan Rx), which some cats do
great with, some cats have weird reactions to. Metoclopramide is available as
an injectable, which is a good option for some cats, esp those getting a lot of
meds orally. The vet can get you a 10mL vial or prefilled syringes. Since
you're already giving Lovenox inj, you may already have syringes and you already
know the technique.

For excessive acid problems, there's Hyland's Nat phos cell salt (6X), which
are very easy to administer with a cat. Also famotidine (Pepcid), which is a
histamine blocker (again, not pushing drugs).
>
> 2) Since SEB coats the intestinal track how, or does it, interfere
> with injections?
>
Not as far as we know.  // Rosemary


**************
From Wall Street to Main
Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news.
(http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Linda,

In a message dated 1/19/09 12:36:30 AM, MekaNoel@... writes:


> I got a copy of Nikko's blood work and I wanted to post some of the numbers
> in case anyone has any thoughts. Nikko had a urine culture done yesterday
> but I won't know the results till Monday.
>
What did the culture indicate?

> I won't list all of them because there is a lot but here are some.
>
> BUN 62 (15-34) high
> creatinine 2.9 (0.8-2.3) high
>
Yes, both high, tho the creatinine is not way outrageous.

> phosphorus 6.2 (3.0-7.0)
>
This is high, even tho it's still in ref range...and can contribute to
malaise. Desirable phosphorus is about 4.0. So it might be a good idea to
consider a
phos binder such as alum hydroxide. See Dave's site at
http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/compare.htm for obtaining that.

> potassium 4.3 (3.9-5.3)
>
This looks ok.

> glucose 126 (70-150)
>
This looks ok, so that rules out one possibility for drinking water.

> neutrophil 77   (35-75%) high
> lymphocytes 15 (20-55%) low
> auto platelet 148 (170-600) low
>
Doesn't look hugely significant. Might indicate infection/inflammation. //
Rosemary
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Methimazole can be fine for years and then side effects can set in.
Nausea is one of them. You are very lucky that is has been working well
this long as it is not a medication made for long-term treatment, but
just to quickly rebalance thyroid levels before a more permanent
solution.

It is only used for long-term treatment when no other treatment is
possible as in your case.

You can learn much more from one of the thyroid groups.

Judith

Hi Susan,

In a message dated 1/20/09 8:38:49 PM, Dshale1@... writes:


> Lately she has been scratching under
> chin and her neck a lot, and has scratched some bare patches along the
> side of her neck.
>
And you've ruled out parasites (eg fleas, mites) and pathogens (eg ringworm)?
Feline acne? Adverse reaction to food ingredients or other substances in the
environment (eg rug fibers, detergent, fragrances)? What about ambient
humidity (which should be about 50%...and falls in cold weather, esp with
heating)?
>
> Could this be a side effect of any of these meds?
>
Possible.

> The skin itself
> where she's scratching looks normal. There isn't any sign of dry skin
> or flaking. She hasn't broken the skin yet either with her scratching.
>
And I hope she doesn't. One topical remedy to help with skin irritation is
pure aloe vera juice (no sodium benzoate, no aloin, no emodin, no additives,
with polysaccharides), which can be dabbed on with a cotton cosmetic pad or ball
a few times per day. Another is calendula, which can be made up in a solution
using no-alcohol tincture or dried plant. Hyland's also makes a calendula
spray.
>
> She does have a bad tooth which the vet said he can't do anything
> about because of her heart.
>
A number of heart cats have been in this situation...and a tooth problem can
affect the rest of the body, besides causing discomfort and possible appetite
problems. Have you checked the archives...and talked with the vet about using
things like sevoflurane for maintenance anesthesia? There's also comprehensive
information about anesthesia at the Vet Anesthesia Support Group at
www.vasg.org.

How are her gums otherwise? Are you doing dental care at home?   // Rosemary




**************
From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Linda,

In a message dated 1/21/09 1:30:28 PM, MekaNoel@... writes:


> I got Nikko's urine culture results back and it is clear. I thought maybe
> his BUN and creatinine went up because of an infection.
>
It's possible...and kidney infections (as opposed to lower urinary tract can
sometimes be hard to find).

Were there are significant results, esp specific gravity, protein, blood?

> Since it not an infection does anyone know what could be causing the rise?
>
Besides chronic/acute renal insufficiency (incl from medications) and
infection, there's dehydration, diet, and metabolic disorders. Has the thyroid
been
tested...with both Free T4 and Total T4 (both need to be read together)?

> If he doesn't need fluids is there anything else I can do?
>
Oral hydration and phosphorus binder. For chronic renal insufficiency, there
are also means to support the kidneys, eg with glandulars, Chinese herb
formulas, and homeopathics...but I don't know if that's what's going on with
Nikko.
// Rosemary



**************
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I felt just the same way when Max was DX with HCM at the beginning of October,
2007...but, he is still doing great.  Takes enalapril and lasix and CQ10 and
nattozyne and seems to be healthy and happy.  We know that they can go at any
time, but knowing this makes their time really special...we enjoy every day
together and I feel so close to him now that it will be even much harder to let
him go when his time comes, but we're not thinking about that;  just enjoying
every day.  You will get used to the DX and hopefully Cecil will do well (Max is
12.5 yrs) with it.  I don't know anything about Acromegly, so I don't know how
they work together, but I will be hoping that you and Cecil both adjust and
flourish with his disease...good luck...Judi and Max

To: feline-heart@...: sanrun@...: Sat, 24 Jan 2009
11:02:06 -0800Subject: [FH] Cecil



Cecil is 11 years old and has Acromegly. He was just DX with HCM, after going
into CHF.  He bounced back quickly and is doing fine. He is on Lasix, Cardizam
and Benzaprile. I hope that he can stay healthy for awhile.  I just don't know
how quickly they slide down hill.  Sometimes, I worry that I will find him dead
when I get home.  I hate this DX! Poor kittie, first the Acro then this!  Sandy
and Cecil[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Gail,

In a message dated 1/22/09 11:21:39 PM, galenarizona@... writes:


> Since the blood clot we have been having a challenge with food intake.
> Recently I realized with the kidney values so high she must have upset
> stomach (even though until last week there were no outward signs) - So
> what the problem is (and 2 vets cannot see anything) is she will eat a
> little bit of her food and then stop and start licking her mouth and
> widely like there is something stuck in her mouth she is trying to get
> out. My acupuncturist and primary vet have both looked in her mouth
> and see NOTHING but I swear something is bugging her and I TRULY
> believe that is the cause of the lack of eating because I KNOW (she
> shows me) that she wants to eat and if her mouth would stop bugging
> her she would eat.
>
I believe you, too. "Mouth smacking" as you describe can be a sign of serious
nausea, incl from medications and other health disorders such as renal
problems, and/or delayed gastric emptying or slow gastric motility. The remedies
to
think about for this are metoclopramide, famotidine, and Nat phos cell salt
(6X). Slippery elm alone may not be enough to manage the nausea...and you can
establish if there is delayed gastric emptying with x-ray or ultrasound (and a
very competent vet radiologist).

Other symptoms to look for besides the lip slicking, mouth smacking, and
wanting to eat but refusing food incl dropping food out of the side of the
mouth,
tongue flailing, pawing at the mouth, and gagging.

I can't guarantee that what you're seeding is the same thing I'm talking
about. But it's possible.

> Has any one ever seen this in their baby?
>
Yes.

> Or have any ideas of what to search. I am thinking of possibly having
> local anesthesia done to get a better look since neither (thankfully)
> will put her under completely.
>
Before exposing a heart cat to anesthesia, I would ask the vet about gastric
motility and try metoclopramide. Barium x-ray and ultrasound can be done
without sedation.

The name for this is gastroparesis...but vets may associate that with
diabetes and/or diabetic neuropathies and may not recognize it unless it is
frank (it
exists in degrees, like all disorders, and can be affected by medications and
nerve problems). It might also be "regular" nausea from kidney problems (incl
associated high phosphorus and acidity) and medications. // Rosemary



**************
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Gail,

In a message dated 1/23/09 12:27:50 PM, galenarizona@... writes:


> Even eating baby food causes this reaction (which is pureed) and both
> the holistic vet and our primary vet have looked in her mouth and see
> nothing that would cause this reaction
>
There may be nothing in the mouth...it may be further down in the dig.
system.

> I am also going to ask about ambisol, who knows maybe it is something
> in the gum they cannot see and maybe ambisol will help.
>
It might be something with the gum...but it might not be. And I'd look long
and hard at the ingredients in Anbesol before considering them with a cat,
since Anbesol may contain benzoic acid, essential oils, phenols, alcohol, and
synthetic colorings that are not appropriate or cats. // Rosemary
>


**************
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Gail,

In a message dated 1/23/09 2:15:27 PM, galenarizona@... writes:

> I would be surprised if it was the methimazole seeing as how she has
> been on it for a couple of years now
>
Reaction can be cumulative with repeat exposure...or can be abrupt even with
a medication that hasn't caused problems in the past. Nausea is a possible
negative effect of methimazole, so transdermal gel as Candace suggested might be
a way to circumvent that. Might also be useful to have the Total and Free T4
and the liver enzymes checked. B/c methimazole can affect the liver, which can
also contribute to serious nausea.

> lately her water consumption is
> up but that may be due to her kidney values (71 BUN and 4.1 CREAT as
> of last friday)
>
Those are high. How is the phosphorus level? Desirable is around 4.0...and
higher than 5.0 might be a good time to consider phos. binders.

> but ideally it is because she is coming around and we
> are doing subq's every other day per vet reccomendations for
> hydration.
>
Another way to go about this is smaller amts more frequently, rather than a
larger amts less frequently. It requires more needles and more sticks, but may
contribute to more even hydration.

> Will keep trying and asking the vets - I am going to follow up on the
> espohogus idea and see if there is something we can do there.
>
If there are esophageal ulcers, slippery elm is very good for that. //
Rosemary


**************
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We have a 7y old male siamese who was recently diagnosed with HCM with
cardiac remodeling and restrictive filling.  He was diagnosed after an
acute episode of pulmonary edema on 12/26/08.  We are on Lasix,
Benazapril, Baby Asprin, Pimobendan, and Fragmin.  We (my husband and
I) are absolutely devastated with the diagnosis and plan to do all we
can for him.  He is a more than a cat to us.  He seems to be doing
quite well on his current medications.  We take him to the Cardiology
clinic at NCSU and he sees Dr Bruce Keene.  We have been very pleased
with the care he has recieved there.  Does anyone have a kitty in a
similar situation on similar meds that has done well?  It would be very
reassuring to hear something positive as all I read online is usually
negative.  Thanks for your time and I pray for everyone here that is
hurting for their kitty as we are.

Please be sure to trim all replies, especially all the junk that Yahoo puts on
the bottom of the emails. When replies are not trimmed reading the digest can be
nearly impossible. It also takes longer for emails to download for those on a
dial-up connection.


Thanks!


Diane
Feline-Heart List Mom

I agree with Candace. The risk of coronary heart failure is to great to
ignore, see the vet/cardio asap.

It might be a chest infection, but you can't take that risk.

Lyn.. :)

PS: I adore his name!!!

_www.myfurkids.co.uk_ (http://www.myfurkids.co.uk/)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello

I am sorry to hear Kovu is unwell. That's an unusual interesting name,  where
did he get it? It's good he sees the cardio and has started meds. They  will
slow down the progression of heart disease.

I haven't got any restrictive HCM cats, but I`m sure others will have  advice
and suggestions.

:) Lyn

_www.myfurkids.co.uk_ (http://www.myfurkids.co.uk/)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Sandy

I am sorry to hear that Cecil has HCM. No one can predict a prognosis and
some cats manage very well for years. My Trixi was diagnosed at 13 weeks old,
was given 2 months to live and is now two and a half years!! Cats don't know
what the cardiologist says, or they do and are determined to show differently!!
  Love Cecil every day. No one cna ever know what is going to happen, but with
  meds and supplements (I use Cardio S) they can live a long life.

It's fantastic that the drugs worked for him!

Lyn:)

_www.myfurkids.co.uk_ (http://www.myfurkids.co.uk/)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,

As some of you know, I'm in Melbourne Australia.  Well, starting
tomorrow (Tuesday), every day in the foreseeable future is going to be
40 and above, with "low" temps around 25.  In fahrenheit, that's highs
of 104+ and "lows"of around 77.

Claude went into CHF in November last year, and has been stable on
.5ml of furosemide twice daily, 60mg of natto once-daily and 1/2 a tab
of fortekor daily.

His little sister Tuppenny also has HCM, but is currently stable,
though she gets 50mg prophylactic natto.

They've already lost their big sister and big brother to complications
from saddle thrombosis. They were all born Sep 1st 2002.

We don't have air conditioning, the brick house takes a while to heat
up initially (so tomorrow will mostly be okay), but then takes forever
to cool down.

I'm also worried about my parents.  They aren't young.  My dad has
aircon at his place, but also heart disease.  His sister, who has been
like a grandmother to me, also has aircon, but is very frail, as is my
actual grandma.  Actually, everyone I've mentioned here has heart
disease.  And then there's my mum, who has lost a LOT of weight
recently.

I'm just so worried about everyone.  Right now, we have a forecast
through to Monday.  Tuesday to Saturday will be over 40, and then
"only" around 30.  And already, flaming idiots (if you'll parden the
pun) have been lighting bushfires (I think you call them wildfires or
brushfires) within kilometres of my home.

I guess the point of this long-winded posting is to ask ... please,
wish us all luck.  I think we're going to need it.

Cheers,

Catherine, Kitty, Claude and Tuppenny
Topsy-Angel, Buttons-Angel, Patch-Angel.

hi jasper went for a check up last night hes going for another scan
today, he had a scan 3 months ago, and the vet diognosed hcm with
clots, he said in november that he could only have as little as 6
months left with us, (u always hope thier wrong) is the building up of
fluid in his lungs and abdomen the last stages of this condition, the
vet is going to put him on dietics, as well as his fornekor, he wont
take his asprin, im just very scared that we may be losing him, when i
look on the internet they all say these are symptoms of heart failure,
he seems fine in himself, the only symptom is his belly is getting
very round,

Hi:  are you going to a cardiologist?  If possible you should take him to one,
or an internal medicine specialist.  His condition is serious, but it can
usually be treated very successfully with lasix (the dirutec he mentioned) and
some other heart medicine...my cat takes enalapril and I love it.  If he won't
take his aspirin you can try nattokinase (I use nattozyme)...just google it and
you will find it.  I put it in the liquid from whiskas treats (probably not the
best thing, but at least he'll eat it and I can get him using both natto and
CQ10 that way.)  He may need emergency care right now...what they did for Max
was injectable lasix and oxygen to get him past the congestive heart failure. 
But, don't give up hope...I can't speak for exactly what is happening to your
cat, but mine and many others here have had successful outcomes from the
emergency treatment for CHF and the follow up meds.  Max is now 1.4 years after
CHF and he seems stronger than before...but, I don't know how long we'll have
him.
good luck...Judi and Max (and John and Angels Cleo and Jolie)



To: feline-heart@...: jackieandtwix@...: Wed, 28 Jan
2009 08:17:53 +0000Subject: [FH] jasper now has fluid in his lungs and abdomen



hi jasper went for a check up last night hes going for another scan today, he
had a scan 3 months ago, and the vet diognosed hcm with clots, he said in
november that he could only have as little as 6 months left with us, (u always
hope thier wrong) is the building up of fluid in his lungs and abdomen the last
stages of this condition, the vet is going to put him on dietics, as well as his
fornekor, he wont take his asprin, im just very scared that we may be losing
him, when i look on the internet they all say these are symptoms of heart
failure, he seems fine in himself, the only symptom is his belly is getting very
round,






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree, once a cat in heart failure is stabilized they can live a
long time, sometimes for a few years. Our cardiologist said not to
believe the dire predictions you read online. In one study most cats
in heart failure treated with enalapril were not in heart failure six
months later and their heart measurements had improved, so meds can
definitely help. Lasix or another diuretic should help eliminate the
extra fluid.

Good luck--
Susan

--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Judi Levens <casaobelisco@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi:  are you going to a cardiologist?  If possible you should take
him to one, or an internal medicine specialist.  His condition is
serious, but it can usually be treated very successfully with lasix
(the dirutec he mentioned) and some other heart medicine...my cat
takes enalapril and I love it.  If he won't take his aspirin you can
try nattokinase (I use nattozyme)...just google it and you will find
it.  I put it in the liquid from whiskas treats (probably not the best
thing, but at least he'll eat it and I can get him using both natto
and CQ10 that way.)  He may need emergency care right now...what they
did for Max was injectable lasix and oxygen to get him past the
congestive heart failure.  But, don't give up hope...I can't speak for
exactly what is happening to your cat, but mine and many others here
have had successful outcomes from the emergency treatment for CHF and
the follow up meds.  Max is now 1.4 years after CHF and he seems
stronger than before...but, I don't know how long we'll have him.
> good luck...Judi and Max (and John and Angels Cleo and Jolie)
>
>

My Sangie was diagnosed w/heart failure this time last year & is no
longer in heart failure.  She was put on lasix for fluid & heperin as an
anitcoagulent & pemobenden to help her heart pump more efficiently.  She
was on enalapril for her HCM before the CHF diagnosis.  So the added
meds, lots of TLC & low stress environment, & blessings from
God.........she's more than doing well today!!

dshale1 wrote:

> I agree, once a cat in heart failure is stabilized they can live a
> long time, sometimes for a few years. Our cardiologist said not to
> believe the dire predictions you read online. In one study most cats
> in heart failure treated with enalapril were not in heart failure six
> months later and their heart measurements had improved, so meds can
> definitely help. Lasix or another diuretic should help eliminate the
> extra fluid.
>
> Good luck--
> Susan
>
> --- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:feline-heart%40yahoogroups.com>, Judi Levens
> <casaobelisco@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi: are you going to a cardiologist? If possible you should take
> him to one, or an internal medicine specialist. His condition is
> serious, but it can usually be treated very successfully with lasix
> (the dirutec he mentioned) and some other heart medicine...my cat
> takes enalapril and I love it. If he won't take his aspirin you can
> try nattokinase (I use nattozyme)...just google it and you will find
> it. I put it in the liquid from whiskas treats (probably not the best
> thing, but at least he'll eat it and I can get him using both natto
> and CQ10 that way.) He may need emergency care right now...what they
> did for Max was injectable lasix and oxygen to get him past the
> congestive heart failure. But, don't give up hope...I can't speak for
> exactly what is happening to your cat, but mine and many others here
> have had successful outcomes from the emergency treatment for CHF and
> the follow up meds. Max is now 1.4 years after CHF and he seems
> stronger than before...but, I don't know how long we'll have him.
> > good luck...Judi and Max (and John and Angels Cleo and Jolie)
> >
> >
>
>


--
Kathy Wood
Executive Program Manager
UNC-Chapel Hill AGEP
Department of Chemistry
Kenan Labs, CB#3290
p) 919.962.2509
f)  919.843.2554
kathy_wood@...

www.unc.edu/agep
www.acsbe.org
www.unc.edu/opt-ed

My mom was just diagnosed with Atrial Fibrilation, her upper chamber
of her heart is enlarged and she has an irregular heart beat.  She
was prescribed Warfarin (Coumadin) blood thinner to prevent clotting.

On the info from the drug handout, it says to NOT take CoQ10 with
blood thinners, because it interferes with the anti-clotting action
of the Warfarin/Coumadin.

Well, I did some checking, because I couldn't believe that this was
true. I've been giving my heart kitties blood thinners (either drugs
or nattokinase) for years and also giving them CoQ10.  I was shocked
at what I found today, and I think everyone needs to know about
this, so they can do their own research and make their own
decisions. I'm still trying to find out more too.

CoQ10 supposedly is structurally related to Vitamin K, which
enhances clotting in the blood, so if you're taking a blood thinner,
you DO NOT want to take Vitamin K.  Well, if CoQ10 has clotting
properties, then we should not be giving it to our kitties either!
Right?!  I'm very confused and upset about my findings today.

Here's one site that I found with info, and there are tons more. I
did a Google search for "interactions with coumadin and CoQ10".
That's how I found these.  Now what I found is related to
specifically Warfarin/coumadin, but it applies to all blood
thinners, including nattokinase.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/409742_10
Coenzyme Q10 is structurally related to vitamin K and subsequently
possesses procoagulant effects. The potentially critical interaction
can result as a diminished response to warfarin therapy. Several
case reports describe decreases in international normalized ratio
(INR) after the addition of CoQ10 in patients previously stabilized
with warfarin therapy.[59, 60] With discontinuation of CoQ10,
responsiveness to warfarin therapy resumed and INR values returned
to levels seen prior to provitamin supplementation.[59, 60] The
concomitant use of warfarin and CoQ10 should be avoided due to the
risk of thrombotic complications.

http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/specnatsubin.html
Coenzyme Q10 (also known as ubiquinone or ubidecarenone) is used for
congestive heart failure and other cardiovascular disorders.[5] It
can reduce the anticoagulant effect of warfarin. There have been two
case reports describing decreased International Normalized Ratios
(INRs) when coenzyme Q10 was added to warfarin therapy on which
patients had been stable.[21,22]

In animals, coenzyme Q10 antagonizes the anticoagulant effects of
warfarin.[23] Coenzyme Q10 is structurally related to men-aquinone
(vitamin K2), suggesting a pharmacodynamic interaction with warfarin.
[21,23]


Here are some sites with info about herb/supplement interactions
with blood thinners (specifically Warfarin/coumadin).

http://www.healthchemist.co.nz/learning-centre.html?
org=commodore&ContentID=1539003 or http://tinyurl.com/cr4ehq

This site states that if you're already taking CoQ10 supplementation
to "not" stop it when you start taking blood thinners (coumadin).

http://tinyurl.com/caj8kv
Coenzyme Q10 (ubidecarenone) resembles vitamin K (chemically) and
may also reduce the effectiveness of warfarin.10 If a patient is
already taking Coenzyme Q10, then discontinuing supplementation of
CoQ is not recommended before initiating warfarin therapy. However,
it is advisable not to initiate CoQ supplementation in a patient
starting warfarin dosing.



There are also other herbs that interfere with blood thinners,
including chamomile and ginko biloba.  Of course there's the usual
food things like onions and garlic that thin the blood, which we
don't give our kitties, because of them causing Heinz Bodies Anemia,
so those we don't worry too much about, but I also found out that
Ginger also thins the blood and can increase the risk of internal
bleeding if taking blood thinners.  This is very upsetting to me,
because we use ginger all the time for my mom for digestion and
stomach upset.

I've been interested in and studying holistic and alternative
treatments for several years, since the early 1980's, and I've never
come across this info about CoQ10 and blood thinners.  Now that I
have, I'm concerned about how to treat Snowball's heart issues, and
worried about all of our kitties on this group who have to take
blood thinners and are taking CoQ10.

Can someone on the group who is very knowledgable about the
CoQ10/blood thinners interactions please chime in here and give us
some more information?  This is a very serious thing I found out
today, and had my mom not just been diagnosed with her heart
problems, I'd have never known this about CoQ10 (it having clotting
properties).

Now, I don't want to panic anyone and have you all stop your CoQ10
that you're giving your kitties.  You CAN NOT just stop CoQ10 cold
turkey. You have to slowly wean off of it.  Stopping it cold can
result in negative affects on the heart.  The heart muscle gets used
to a certain inflow of CoQ10, helping it function properly (CoQ10
helps strengthen the heart muscles), and if you take that away
suddenly, you have the risk of the heart going into failure because
it's not getting an adequate supply of CoQ10.  The body does produce
a certain amount of CoQ10, but as you age or have illness, the
body's manufacture of CoQ10 decreases, that's why we supplement.
So, if you are going to stop your CoQ10, please do it very slowly.

Again, members who know more about this drug/CoQ10 interaction,
please add your thoughts.

{sigh}

hugs,
Carol and Snowball and the gang

Mommy is 16 years old and suffered a blood clot to her hind end the
day before thanksgiving. She was put on lovenox 2x day and 1/4 aspirin
every third day. 3 weeks ago we took her in for blood testing and her
BUN was 124 her creat 6.1 phos 18 abd glucose 161 she was also
determined to have regenerative anemia (absolute reticulocute 72300)

She had IV fluids for 36 hours with a final BUN of 74 and Creat of
4.1. We have been on subq's for several months first every other day,
then every 3rd now every day. I have been assisting with feeding in
addition to what she will eat. Water intake seems high (kidneys?) We
are also hyperthyroid with methamazole 2ce a day until recently - with
the blood work her thyroid was in normal range and we took her done to
once a day - and she has been off aspirin since the blood work

Noticed last night that she can no longer stand on her front legs, nor
can she drag herself around (remember saddle thrombosis of the rear
legs, which are not working). She can move them but they are shaky
when she stands, which is not long. It is not a blood clost since they
are still warm and have feeling.

She is still taking in water, no food, knows to use the potty box (if
she can make it in - peed 2ce in our bed because she could not move)

Spoke to both our primary vet and our holistic vet (she was getting
accupunture) - primary thought symptom of anemia (which can't do
anything about since the only drug available has a possible side
effect of making her body destroy its own blood cells), holistic
thinks it is time. We are scheduled to have her come over this eve to
help her to the other side.

I have researched wobbly legs, leg weakness and cannot find anything.
I think her will is there but her body is just done. Am I missing
anything before I make this horrific choice once again in my life.

Thanks and I am cross posting in feline CRF

Gail & Mommy

Two things:
1.  Low potassium can lead to muscle weakness and loss of leg
function.  What were her last values for that?
2.  The statement about  "since the only drug available has a possible
side effect of making her body destroy its own blood cells"  is
severely uneducated.  I am always amazed about what vets do and don't
know.   he drug you mention is called Epogen, and it's a synthetic
hormone that tells the bone marrow to make blood.  The kidneys
normally send that signal but in unhealthy kidneys that signal does
not get sent and anemia is the results.  What is her HCT or PCV value
at last check?  With Epogen, the body may over time develop antibodies
and that would mean the body will attack the synthetic hormone.  This
has nothing to do with attaching the blood cells.  Also, the odds of
this happening are < 25% (and actually closer to 10% in practice).  So
once a cat has severe anemia (HCT 17% or less) one can either let the
cat suffer and then die, or try Epogen which has a fairly high chance
(>75%) or allowing the cat to overcome the anemia.  Also, any antibody
reaction will happen after 3-4 months.  You should consider joinind
the CRF group and ask your questions there.  The site is
Feline-CRF-Support.yahoogroups.com

It sounds like it might be the potassium.  That is a real quick fix
using supplements.
Good luck to you and Mommy.
Don & Milo

On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 2:38 PM, galenarizona <galenarizona@...> wrote:
> Mommy is 16 years old and suffered a blood clot to her hind end the
> day before thanksgiving. She was put on lovenox 2x day and 1/4 aspirin
> every third day. 3 weeks ago we took her in for blood testing and her
> BUN was 124 her creat 6.1 phos 18 abd glucose 161 she was also
> determined to have regenerative anemia (absolute reticulocute 72300)
>
> She had IV fluids for 36 hours with a final BUN of 74 and Creat of
> 4.1. We have been on subq's for several months first every other day,
> then every 3rd now every day. I have been assisting with feeding in
> addition to what she will eat. Water intake seems high (kidneys?) We
> are also hyperthyroid with methamazole 2ce a day until recently - with
> the blood work her thyroid was in normal range and we took her done to
> once a day - and she has been off aspirin since the blood work
>
> Noticed last night that she can no longer stand on her front legs, nor
> can she drag herself around (remember saddle thrombosis of the rear
> legs, which are not working). She can move them but they are shaky
> when she stands, which is not long. It is not a blood clost since they
> are still warm and have feeling.
>
> She is still taking in water, no food, knows to use the potty box (if
> she can make it in - peed 2ce in our bed because she could not move)
>
> Spoke to both our primary vet and our holistic vet (she was getting
> accupunture) - primary thought symptom of anemia (which can't do
> anything about since the only drug available has a possible side
> effect of making her body destroy its own blood cells), holistic
> thinks it is time. We are scheduled to have her come over this eve to
> help her to the other side.
>
> I have researched wobbly legs, leg weakness and cannot find anything.
> I think her will is there but her body is just done. Am I missing
> anything before I make this horrific choice once again in my life.
>
> Thanks and I am cross posting in feline CRF
>
> Gail & Mommy
>
>

I wanted to let you all know that my cat's old cardiologist, Dr. Don
Brown, whom I adored, has set up a specialty practice in Vermont:

Dr. Donald J. Brown
Vermont Veterinary Cardiology Services
Essex Veterinary Center
4 Oliver Wight Drive
Essex, VT 05452
Tel: 802-879-1399
www.vtvcs.com

Apparently there were no veterinary cardiologists in VT before he moved
there this past year. Now there is one. Hope this is helpful for someone
on this list (and for him -- he is having trouble getting enough patients
in the door, I suspect because people in VT don't expect a cardiologist to
be practicing in their area).

Jessica

Don

It was epogen he was talking about - her potassium was 4.6 3 weeks ago
(3.9-5.3 is normal range according to the sheet)
HCT 21.8 - on the lower end (29-45) which I spoke to him about hence
the epogen and his response

Also I am a member of CRF and posted my message below there too - I
have been researching both sites for her

Thanks
Gail & mommy

--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Don <mosquito.dyee@...> wrote:
>
> Two things:
> 1.  Low potassium can lead to muscle weakness and loss of leg
> function.  What were her last values for that?
> 2.  The statement about  "since the only drug available has a possible
> side effect of making her body destroy its own blood cells"  is
> severely uneducated.  I am always amazed about what vets do and don't
> know.   he drug you mention is called Epogen, and it's a synthetic
> hormone that tells the bone marrow to make blood.  The kidneys
> normally send that signal but in unhealthy kidneys that signal does
> not get sent and anemia is the results.  What is her HCT or PCV value
> at last check?  With Epogen, the body may over time develop antibodies
> and that would mean the body will attack the synthetic hormone.  This
> has nothing to do with attaching the blood cells.  Also, the odds of
> this happening are < 25% (and actually closer to 10% in practice).  So
> once a cat has severe anemia (HCT 17% or less) one can either let the
> cat suffer and then die, or try Epogen which has a fairly high chance
> (>75%) or allowing the cat to overcome the anemia.  Also, any antibody
> reaction will happen after 3-4 months.  You should consider joinind
> the CRF group and ask your questions there.  The site is
> Feline-CRF-Support.yahoogroups.com
>
> It sounds like it might be the potassium.  That is a real quick fix
> using supplements.
> Good luck to you and Mommy.
> Don & Milo
>
> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 2:38 PM, galenarizona <galenarizona@...> wrote:
> > Mommy is 16 years old and suffered a blood clot to her hind end the
> > day before thanksgiving. She was put on lovenox 2x day and 1/4 aspirin
> > every third day. 3 weeks ago we took her in for blood testing and her
> > BUN was 124 her creat 6.1 phos 18 abd glucose 161 she was also
> > determined to have regenerative anemia (absolute reticulocute 72300)
> >
> > She had IV fluids for 36 hours with a final BUN of 74 and Creat of
> > 4.1. We have been on subq's for several months first every other day,
> > then every 3rd now every day. I have been assisting with feeding in
> > addition to what she will eat. Water intake seems high (kidneys?) We
> > are also hyperthyroid with methamazole 2ce a day until recently - with
> > the blood work her thyroid was in normal range and we took her done to
> > once a day - and she has been off aspirin since the blood work
> >
> > Noticed last night that she can no longer stand on her front legs, nor
> > can she drag herself around (remember saddle thrombosis of the rear
> > legs, which are not working). She can move them but they are shaky
> > when she stands, which is not long. It is not a blood clost since they
> > are still warm and have feeling.
> >
> > She is still taking in water, no food, knows to use the potty box (if
> > she can make it in - peed 2ce in our bed because she could not move)
> >
> > Spoke to both our primary vet and our holistic vet (she was getting
> > accupunture) - primary thought symptom of anemia (which can't do
> > anything about since the only drug available has a possible side
> > effect of making her body destroy its own blood cells), holistic
> > thinks it is time. We are scheduled to have her come over this eve to
> > help her to the other side.
> >
> > I have researched wobbly legs, leg weakness and cannot find anything.
> > I think her will is there but her body is just done. Am I missing
> > anything before I make this horrific choice once again in my life.
> >
> > Thanks and I am cross posting in feline CRF
> >
> > Gail & Mommy
> >
> >
>

Hi,
   My name is Mia and I am owned by a 11 year old dsh named Cleo. Cleo received
radio iodine treatment in November as she was hyperthyroid. Prior to that she
had a had an echocardiogram- results no pericardial effusion
Doppler finding Mild-moderate MR(2.5m/sec):Increase LVOT velocity(3.1
m/sec):Normal RVOT velocity
  Moderate LA and mild LV dilation LV wall WNL-Subvalvular septal
hypertrophy(0.76cm) increase contractility.
Assessment - Subvalular septal hypertropy;SAM:Increase LVOT Velocity
Cleo also has a gradeIII/IV heart murmur and is on Enalapril 0.25mg PO SID and
she gets 1/2 of a baby aspirin every 72 hours.
Cleo's thyroid is now at normal levels and he vet suggest that we recheck the
echo in April.
I welcome any input on your part re: the tests results and the medications that
Cleo is on - Thank you so much for welcoming me into your group.
                                                                                          
Mia and Cleo


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the feline-heart
group.

   File        : /5.pdf
   Uploaded by : syrinx12000 <Pat.Creighton@...>
   Description : IVIS Library - Nutritional management of early cardiac disease: 
ACT with SPEED

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/feline-heart/files/5.pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

Regards,

syrinx12000 <Pat.Creighton@...>

Saylor has been seen by Dr. Brown and his wife who work as a team.
They were both very good with Saylor and explained the results to me
following the exam.

Dr. Brown is a good resource for people who live in upstate NY south
of the Quebec border which is where I live. There used to be a
cardiologist in the Albany area but that individual was not practicing
there when Saylor was diagnosed in Oct. of '06.

If Dr. Brown is having problems getting patients he should send out
brochures to vets in upstate NY.  Some time ago I added his name to
our list of cardiologist.


--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Perry Hekman
<jphekman@...> wrote:
>
> I wanted to let you all know that my cat's old cardiologist, Dr. Don
> Brown, whom I adored, has set up a specialty practice in Vermont:
>
> Dr. Donald J. Brown
> Vermont Veterinary Cardiology Services
> Essex Veterinary Center
> 4 Oliver Wight Drive
> Essex, VT 05452
> Tel: 802-879-1399
> www.vtvcs.com

CA wants to legislate a 9% tax on all veterinary services, INCLUDING
medications.

This fact sheet sums up the negative impacts:

http://www.cvma.net/images/cvmapdf/VetSalesTaxFact_12_08.pdf
or http://tinyurl.com/d2krw6

This is really reprehensible at a time when so much is being done to
heighten awareness regarding animal care. Veterinarians, whose
training and licensing is as rigorous as that of MDs, will now have
their care taxed as though they were dispensing canned goods. The
cost of surgeries, neutering, etc. is high—an additional 9% will
discourage many from giving their pet care. As well, preventative
care, yearly vaccines, and management of lifelong medical condition
(such as diabetes) may no longer be feasible for many. Already lots
of folks are having to relinquish pets to the pound due to the
current economy. This tax will definitely result in even more
abandonments and euthanasias of healthy animals.  Also, added cost
for food animal care will be passed on to the consumer, so your cost
of food is going to increase.

The California Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA) is strongly
opposed to Governor Schwarzenegger's proposal to add a sales tax on
veterinary services. They urge you to contact the Governor, the
Legislative Leadership and your state representatives. Register your
opinion with Governor Schwarzenegger to remove the Veterinary
Services Tax from the budget proposal. It's simple and effective.
Just call the Governor's office and make it known that balancing the
budget at the expense of our pets' health is not acceptable!!!

This takes less than 1 minute - you can punch the numbers one after
the other, it's all automated.


Please Call:  (916) 445-2841: then press: 1 - 5 - 1 - 2

Press 1 for English.
Press 5 for the veterinary tax  proposal.
Press 1 if  you're calling about the veterinary tax proposal.
Press 2 to oppose the  tax.


ALSO....the CVMA main website has links for additonal information,
including the fact sheet and the contact information for key members
of the legislature as well as your local representatives.  If you're
so inclined to write:

http://www.cvma.net/


References

1. http://www.cvma.net/images/cvmapdf/VetSalesTaxFact_12_08.pdf
2. http://www.cvma.net/

**Please forward to others. Thanks for your support.