Winston- 6 month old male Ragdoll. Diagnosed with HCM, grade 4 Gallop Rythym. On
Lasix (1/4 once a day), Atenolol (1/4 tab once a day) and Baby asprin, every
third day.

HAS NEVER had an accident in his life, even having to find a litter box in
unfamiliar surroundings. This morning he peed on my bed. 5 minutes prior to
this, he pooped in the litter box, which i cleaned right away. I then walked in
the bed room to find him covering up a large pool of urine on my down comforter.
I cleaned it up and will take the comforter to the dry cleaner at lunch. No
urine on sheets...

Right before he peed he was walking around the house crying, not painful
yowling, but crying, which is crazy unlike him, as he is quite a silent guy.
(Never speaks much).....

I called the vet, not totally ruling out behavioral, even though its hard for me
to believe, but he has an appt tomorrow morning.

He has been on lasix for 3 weeks and hasnt had an issue- AT ALL...this is why i
am kinda shocked.

Has this every happened to anyone? Urinary accidents? I believe when he was
meowing he was either hurting, or confused, so he went on the bed....but i
really would be disappointed if this is a behavioral issue. I have another
Ragdoll, Oliver, who has also never had an issue and Winston has been around him
since June 2009.

Please, if you have an insight as to why this may have happened, please let me
know. I am very worried. It was alot of urine, so he doesnt appear to have any
kind of blockage.....

Thanks- Melissa and Winnie.

Winston- 6 month old male Ragdoll. Diagnosed with HCM, grade 4 Gallop Rythym. On
Lasix (1/4 once a day), Atenolol (1/4 tab once a day) and Baby asprin, every
third day.

HAS NEVER had an accident in his life, even having to find a litter box in
unfamiliar surroundings. This morning he peed on my bed. 5 minutes prior to
this, he pooped in the litter box, which i cleaned right away. I then walked in
the bed room to find him covering up a large pool of urine on my down comforter.
I cleaned it up and will take the comforter to the dry cleaner at lunch. No
urine on sheets...

Right before he peed he was walking around the house crying, not painful
yowling, but crying, which is crazy unlike him, as he is quite a silent guy.
(Never speaks much).....

I called the vet, not totally ruling out behavioral, even though its hard for me
to believe, but he has an appt tomorrow morning.

He has been on lasix for 3 weeks and hasnt had an issue- AT ALL...this is why i
am kinda shocked.

Has this every happened to anyone? Urinary accidents? I believe when he was
meowing he was either hurting, or confused, so he went on the bed....but i
really would be disappointed if this is a behavioral issue. I have another
Ragdoll, Oliver, who has also never had an issue and Winston has been around him
since June 2009.

Please, if you have an insight as to why this may have happened, please let me
know. I am very worried. It was alot of urine, so he doesnt appear to have any
kind of blockage.....

Thanks- Melissa and Winnie.

It still might be a urinary problem.  A friend of mine wrote to me about
her cat a couple of weeks ago,  she'd noticed him having difficulty
urinating, so she took him to the emergency vet and wrote, "When I got
him there, they let me know that he had urinated a LOT in his carrier
and also when they had him on the table and they were able to catch some
to test. He had a whole lot of debris and crystals ....."

Marcia

BTW, please DNA test your Ragdolls for the Ragdoll HCM mutation.
UCDavis is now offering the test, amd it's less expensive than WSU.  If
you need the link to the website,  let me know.

--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "smittyhj82" <smittyhj82@...>
wrote:

>

> Please, if you have an insight as to why this may have happened,
please let me know. I am very worried. It was alot of urine, so he
doesnt appear to have any kind of blockage.....

>

> Thanks- Melissa and Winnie.

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am so sorry to hear of this crisis!  I know how scared and worried you must be
for him.

All I can relate to you is that on two occasions, my baby boy Helmet (who passed
almost three weeks ago) came into the bathroom while I was in the shower,
meowing like I've never really heard before. He was always pretty vocal - but
this was like he was scared. I jumped out of the shower still soapy to see what
was wrong.  Once I was out and talked to him, he seemed fine.  However, looking
back, I think he was uncomfortable and trying to tell me.  I regret not being
more proactive in alerting the vet to this.

Btw, just as information, Helmet was on Atenolol twice daily.  An Internist
originally started him on 1x daily; but when I took him up to CSU for a second
opinion, the cardiologist put him on it twice daily.  something about the
release properties aren't quite 24 hours - I think it's 18.  So, if given only
1x daily, there is a period of time when there is no medication.

Helmet never did have accidents, so I'm not much help there.

I do hope you get some answers; I've just learned pretty much that any changes
need to be reported to the vet.

--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "smittyhj82" <smittyhj82@...> wrote:
>
> Winston- 6 month old male Ragdoll. Diagnosed with HCM, grade 4 Gallop Rythym.
On Lasix (1/4 once a day), Atenolol (1/4 tab once a day) and Baby asprin, every
third day.
>
> HAS NEVER had an accident in his life, even having to find a litter box in
unfamiliar surroundings. This morning he peed on my bed. 5 minutes prior to
this, he pooped in the litter box, which i cleaned right away. I then walked in
the bed room to find him covering up a large pool of urine on my down comforter.
I cleaned it up and will take the comforter to the dry cleaner at lunch. No
urine on sheets...
>
> Right before he peed he was walking around the house crying, not painful
yowling, but crying, which is crazy unlike him, as he is quite a silent guy.
(Never speaks much).....
>
> I called the vet, not totally ruling out behavioral, even though its hard for
me to believe, but he has an appt tomorrow morning.
>
> He has been on lasix for 3 weeks and hasnt had an issue- AT ALL...this is why
i am kinda shocked.
>
> Has this every happened to anyone? Urinary accidents? I believe when he was
meowing he was either hurting, or confused, so he went on the bed....but i
really would be disappointed if this is a behavioral issue. I have another
Ragdoll, Oliver, who has also never had an issue and Winston has been around him
since June 2009.
>
> Please, if you have an insight as to why this may have happened, please let me
know. I am very worried. It was alot of urine, so he doesnt appear to have any
kind of blockage.....
>
> Thanks- Melissa and Winnie.
>

hi Melissa,

He may have a urinary tract or bladder infection. That often will make them have
indiscriminate peeing and it probably burns when they pee, so the crying may be
from that.

When you go to the vet tomorrow, you might want to have a blood panel with a
urinalysis and culture done to check his kidney values and see if there's any
infection going on.  Kitties on Lasix need to have their kidneys watched
carefully, because the constant use of diuretics can be damaging to their
kidneys.  Our angel Chris developed CRF (chronic renal failure) from being on
long term Lasix.  CRF kitties have to pee a lot and usually the volume is big
too, because they drink a lot more than usual.  Often they'll pee outside the
box, because they just can't hold it.

I hope it's just a UTI. Please get it checked out tomorrow

hugs,
Carol and Snowball and the gang

Here is another post from fanciershealth list --
----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce Ellenbecker
To: Westgold
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: [FAN-H] Re: First case of cardio in 20 years of breeding...


Of course you can forward it. I had a client whose vet said the cat had HCM, but
cardiac echo, EKG, showed RCM. Which was a huge relief. I replaced the cat, even
at 3 yrs. old, because the owners had spent a huge amount getting it diagnosed. 
Every vet is going to say it's HCM, because that is the most likly type. What if
you sold
a kitten to someone who then fed it dog food for a couple years? DCM comes from
taurine deficiency. Taurine is added to cat food, it is not added to dog food.
If you took the vets word for it, without a dignosis from a kitty cardiologist,
you could throw away a whole breeding program for no reason.
                                                                      Joyce



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Westgold <westgold@...>
To: forestdolls <snopals@...>
Sent: Sun, October 4, 2009 12:07:45 PM
Subject: Re: [FAN-H] Re: First case of cardio in 20 years of breeding...


hi -- very interesting post, may I forward it to feline-heart group?  thanks
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: forestdolls
   To: fanciershealth@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 11:55 AM
   Subject: [FAN-H] Re: First case of cardio in 20 years of breeding...


     Encourage your client to have the condition diagnosed for sure. There are
several types of cardiomyopathy. HCM is inheirted, the other types usually are
NOT. The problem may be present at birth, which you have no control over. RCM is
congential, but not considered inheirted. DCM is related to taurine deficency.
   One good site on the various types is:
   <http://www.fabcats. org/breeders/ inherited_ disorders/ cardiovascular. php>

   If you don't have the type of cardiomyopathy diagnosed per cardiac echo etc.
or at necropsy, you will never know if it was inheirted, aquired, or congential
only.
   Joyce

   --- In fanciershealth@ yahoogroups. com, "Linda I" <Catalyst8@. ..> wrote:
   >
   > Geez, I just got off the phone with a distraught kitten buyer. She bought
two kittens from us about a year and a half ago, and now one is in hospital with
fluid in the lungs and a blood clot that's paralyzing the back legs. It sure
sounds like cardiomyopathy to me, yet honestly, we've been small breeders of
Ragdolls for 20 years and never had a case.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

I have had one of my 14 week kittens to the vet because he looks skinny and is
not thriving as his litter mates are.  He has had bloods taken and all his
electrolytes are fine with the exception that he is 'slightly' anaemic - no
figures available as my husband collected him (I've been working nights).

No advice was forthcoming about how I can help boost his Hb - any ideas would be
appreciated

 Ann
Nobilero Devon Rex, Sphynx and Irish Wolfhounds
www.nobilero.co.uk





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We will all recognize our own precious kitties in this...

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/cat_congress_mired_in_sunbeam

Hey all

Well, over the weekend, I collected my baby boy's ashes and his autopsy report
from the vet.  A situation that was already heart wrenching (his passing) just
seemed to be sullied more by a couple additional things.

My vet here in Southern Arizona (not my favorite and not my first choice) but I
don't live in Colorado currently full-time to take everyone solely to the vet
school.  Routine care when in AZ is at this place and at first, they were great
in offering to meet me in town to collect his little body and take it over to
where the autopsy would be performed.  Then, the cremation place would pick him
up and when his ashes were ready, I'd pick him up at the vets office.

First, the vet only offers very expensive urns (300-500 or more).  So, she
suggested I find one online.  OK.  Never did that before, but fine (should have
been my first clue).  Additionally, in all of this, I assumed that every vet or
cremation business offers those little clay paw prints of your beloveds little
paw prior to burial, cremation, whatever.  So, I didn't ask to be sure this
place did it too.  What a mistake.  If I had, they could have told me no, and I
could have done it myself.  But, correct me if I'm wrong, I think it was the
place of the vet or the cremation business to discuss all options with me and
bring these things to my attention (considering how distraught I was).  Neither
my Mom, nor b/f thought to ask either.

So, when I picked up his ashes, I asked if there was a little clay paw print,
and the woman said she didn't think so.  On top of that, the temporary urn has
his name spelled wrong.  They spelled it Helmut instead of Helmet.

These two things, sent me over the edge yesterday and when I left that place, I
just bawled and kicked my car.  I can never get that back again now.

Alright, moving on before I blow another gasket remembering those things...

The autopsy report.  The death was likely a result of an acute circulatory
failure related to the myocardial pathology.  The heart is moderately enlarged
with a moderate concentric hypertrophy of the ventricles (especially of the left
ventricle).

So, considering his echo in April 2009 was overall good; septum thickness was
only .1mm over normal.  ventricular thickness was normal.  Something between now
and then changed that.  Was it the IBD in general, throwing up, putting stress
on his heart?  Was it the surgery he went through to obtain the biopsies? Was it
the prednisolone although they didn't mention CHF in his autopsy?  Was it a
thrombosis?  Or, an undiagnosed arrhythmia?

Do you ever stop asking yourself what you could have done, what you should have
paid attention to more?  His voice changed - got hoarse - he meowed twice over a
period of time; louder than normal when I was in the shower.  He still wasn't
comfortable laying on his side for very long - although he did still lay on his
side.  I always thought it was due to the IBD because immediately after that
surgery he really had a hard time getting comfortable back home.  Slowly, he was
able to lay longer on his side.

Thanks again for listening everyone.

Darlene, Mom to
Helmet the tuxedo kitty 3/1998-9/2009

I am so sorry about the problem with the cremation.  But I'm glad you did it. 
Having those ashes will comfort you.  I have my soul-kitty Pooh's little urn on
the bookshelf in the hall, I pass it 50 times a day.  I always give him a little
pat or a kiss, or say HI -- it's very comforting.

Does an "acute circulatory failure" mean a clot blocking proper bloodflow, or
that his heart just stopped pumping?  In either case, this is what can happen to
any of our kitties at any minute.  Even though Tigger is on his meds and doesn't
even seem sick right now, my vet said that could turn on a dime, and I could
still lose him any minute.  And that is probably what happened to Helmet.  It
probably didn't have anything to do with anything else, just the cardiomyopathy
suddenly taking that turn.  There is NOTHING you could have done.

Just like people can have a sudden massive heart attack or heart failure (that's
how I lost my dear Father), kitties can have the same thing.  It's over so fast,
there is simply nothing that can be done.  But it is a blessing that it happens
so fast -- then they don't suffer.

Darlene, PLEASE do not blame yourself or your vet, or those other illnesses.  No
second-guessing is necessary.  His precious little heart just suddenly took that
turn and failed.  It would have happened anyway, with or without those other
illnesses.

Sincerely,  Michelle, Susie Q & Tigger Too in Toronto




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello all.  I'm sorry I don't post much, but I do read the mail out, and I find
this a great resource.

My male oriental cat, Doodle, was dx with HCM about 18months ago.  He is on
atenenol, cardio S, and he also has natto.  To date he has been well and without
symptoms.

This morning he woke up coughing, but was fine within a minute.  This evening, I
am sure he looks really bloated arun the abdomen, by which I mean around his
ribs, but 'before' you get to what I would call his tummy (ie: the pouchy bit
that swings around...!)

He has not eaten more than usual and it has been raining all day so I doubt he
has gone out and eaten anywhere else.

I believe that his respiration could be faster than usual (he goes as slow as 16
- 20 per minute when fast asleep) but in truth, I never monitor his waking
breathing so I can't be sure (I will check later).

I could be worrying about nothing here, but please would you let me know what
you think this could be?  This bloating is definitely noteworthy, but is
unaccompanied by another symptoms.

Please let me know what you think - I have just given him is daily meds as
usual.

I would take him in to the vet as soon as you can.  Does he usually cough?  If
not, that could be signs of CHF and fluid build-up around the lungs/heart.  Does
he lay on his side or with his paws tucked under him?  I would definitely at
least call a e-vet and tell them what you're seeing.  They might recommend you
bring him in now.

--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "the_klam" <kmelrose@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all.  I'm sorry I don't post much, but I do read the mail out, and I
find this a great resource.
>
> My male oriental cat, Doodle, was dx with HCM about 18months ago.  He is on
atenenol, cardio S, and he also has natto.  To date he has been well and without
symptoms.
>
> This morning he woke up coughing, but was fine within a minute.  This evening,
I am sure he looks really bloated arun the abdomen, by which I mean around his
ribs, but 'before' you get to what I would call his tummy (ie: the pouchy bit
that swings around...!)
>
> He has not eaten more than usual and it has been raining all day so I doubt he
has gone out and eaten anywhere else.
>
> I believe that his respiration could be faster than usual (he goes as slow as
16 - 20 per minute when fast asleep) but in truth, I never monitor his waking
breathing so I can't be sure (I will check later).
>
> I could be worrying about nothing here, but please would you let me know what
you think this could be?  This bloating is definitely noteworthy, but is
unaccompanied by another symptoms.
>
> Please let me know what you think - I have just given him is daily meds as
usual.
>

It woulc be that he is accumulating fluid in his abdomen; hence the heavy
breathing maybe; it's similar to edema in the lungs and pulmonary effusion
except it can be in the abdomen; you can only know if you do xrays...they
would be absolutely imperative to know because it's terrible when they can't
breathe right..



Linda

   _____

From: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com [mailto:feline-heart@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of darlenehandley
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 1:47 PM
To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [FH] Re: Swollen abdomen - related to HCM?





I would take him in to the vet as soon as you can. Does he usually cough? If
not, that could be signs of CHF and fluid build-up around the lungs/heart.
Does he lay on his side or with his paws tucked under him? I would
definitely at least call a e-vet and tell them what you're seeing. They
might recommend you bring him in now.

--- In feline-heart@ <mailto:feline-heart%40yahoogroups.com>
yahoogroups.com, "the_klam" <kmelrose@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all. I'm sorry I don't post much, but I do read the mail out, and I
find this a great resource.
>
> My male oriental cat, Doodle, was dx with HCM about 18months ago. He is on
atenenol, cardio S, and he also has natto. To date he has been well and
without symptoms.
>
> This morning he woke up coughing, but was fine within a minute. This
evening, I am sure he looks really bloated arun the abdomen, by which I mean
around his ribs, but 'before' you get to what I would call his tummy (ie:
the pouchy bit that swings around...!)
>
> He has not eaten more than usual and it has been raining all day so I
doubt he has gone out and eaten anywhere else.
>
> I believe that his respiration could be faster than usual (he goes as slow
as 16 - 20 per minute when fast asleep) but in truth, I never monitor his
waking breathing so I can't be sure (I will check later).
>
> I could be worrying about nothing here, but please would you let me know
what you think this could be? This bloating is definitely noteworthy, but is
unaccompanied by another symptoms.
>
> Please let me know what you think - I have just given him is daily meds as
usual.
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,

It might be nothing... maybe just something like gas, but to be safe, I would
take him to the vet for an xray.  If it is fluid building up, it'll show on an
xray. Fluid looks like white, cloudy in the area where the fluid accumulates.


Carol and Snowball and the gang

hi --- is it a sign of something wrong when they tuck their paws in?  Please
describe exactly what you are talking about -- thanks



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

more from our fanciershealth discussion --
----- Original Message -----
From: Isabelle Bellavance
To: fanciershealth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: [FAN-H] First case of cardio in 20 years of breeding...


   Hello Stephanie,

Sorry I took a while to respond even though I did see your post earlier this
morning.  I'm at work and since your reply contained quite a few elements I
wanted to respond to, I wanted to take the time to mull over the different
issues.

First off, I appreciate the fact that you explained your point of view and
specified it was from that of a potential pet buyer.  I'm not sure in what field
of work you are in, but it appears to be related to veterinary medicine and this
can provide a different insight altogether. Mine is from a breeder of Ragdolls
of 17 years and also from that of a wildlife Biologist who works in conservation
programs for endangered wildlife.  It took some time and practice for me to
understand that managing breeding programs for captive wildlife had a whole
different set of selection criteria than that of breeding top show cats.  Over
time though, I have to say that I have been able to appreciate many of the
insight provided by studies in population management and managing genetic
diversity and have integrated some of these principles in my breeding program.

I must say that no, I did not attend the ACVIM Forum last June.  I had no idea
it was taking place and don't know if it was open to all anyways, but would like
to take you up on your offer to send along any of the procedings.  Please e-mail
privatly if you have them in digital format or I can also send you my mailing
address if they are in paper format.  Regardless, I have attended a number of
conferences on the topic, several given by Dr Kittleson himself as well as many
of the leading authorities such as Dr Kate Meurs etc.  These were given at breed
congresses in Las Vegas or at conferences dedicated to veterinarians and
breeders as well at both Cornell and Tufts University.   The Tufts conference in
particular is interesting because it is organized by Dr Bell who is a
veterinarian practitioner but also a population biologist and I beleive also a
dog breeder. I've attended two of these conferences one of which was as recent
as last month.  Both
times, it was stressed how important it was to test all breeding stock, but also
to use the information it provides and use it smartly and not to rush off and
spay and neuter everything.

Genetic bottlenecking is probably one of the most important issues that brings
about widespread genetic deseases because it concentrates the genepool in a
population, increasing the % of other potentially deleterious genes that
otherwise were present at lesser frequency. Eliminating radically all subjects
that test positive can and will cause a great genetic bottleneck.  Although I
can appreciate your argument that only 10% of animals at each generation level
are kept back for breeding, you have to note that at the time the test is done,
since this is still a relatively new test and many breeders are still at the
stage of testing their whole breeding stock at large, pet kittens from that
generation have already been neutered and placed as pets, so selecting a
littermate, even if of lesser quality, is not an option.  So essentially,
eliminating all of the breeding stock that tests positive in one swift move will
in fact reduce the genepool by 25%.

Your theory about it not being a representative sample of the total population
has been argued and it unfortunatly does not hold.  Perhaps the first few
months, there could have been a scew because those most worried about their
breeding cats that had histories of HCM tested them first, but eventually, whole
catteries were tested in order to produce the desired certification that all
their cats were clear.  Although only breeding cats, there is no reason to think
that breeding cats would have this mutation at a higher rate than the rest of
their littermates placed in pet homes.  This is true unless the trait is closely
linked to another trait that is considered desirable to a breeder (the Burmese
head defect comes to mind where the defective gene is beleived to be linked to a
rounder more extreme head type). This DNA test has been available for about 2
1/2 years now and the results have been pretty steady.

It is still fairly recent in all perspective and breeders are probably still in
the first generation or two at the most.  Breeders are advised to test for
several generations.  For one, we are being asked for test results on the cats
parents - not the grand parents or great grand parents, and also because errors
in testing or reporting can and have been reported - on more occasions than I
care to report.  Breeders purchasing supposedly tested cats are also advised to
retest just to make sure. Pet buyers have not been advised to test thier cats
but surely many have - how awful to sit with your cat, knowing that it carries a
potentially lethal gene, and that it can keel over at any time...  Sometimes
ingorance is bliss...  Breeders are not testing pet kittens unless they are
testing a whole litter from a hetero positive to negative breeding and want the
info to decide which kitten they will keep before they neuter the positive
parent.

I beleive the same consistent rate of positive cats was reported with the Main
Coon mutation in that breed but that one is a more complexe case because of the
other potential mutations present and also the lowere. Perhaps those involved
with the Persians can tell us if the incidence of PKD in the population has
decreased as the genetic link to that desease was discovered about 15 years ago
and although not perfect, ultrasound helped considerably and the DNA test for
that desease has been available for some time now... Testing pannels such as Cat
Genes would be useful in reporting the incidence of desease in each of the
breeds because breeders may be submitting samples for another purpose such as
color or blood type status and not specifically for the specific desease and so
this would avoid any potential scew in results unfortunatly, I have not found
any data reports of their test results so far.

To get back to the selection process a breeder goes thru when choosing to keep
or neuter a cat, again the DNA results should be used as a tool, and used in
light of the potential risk that breeding an animal with the mutation can cause.
The conscientious breeder had selected this particular subject to persue the
line because of a number of complexe criteria, each of which has it's importance
- to the breeder, as well as the potential pet buyer. Show type according to the
standard is probably one, but overall health and vigor is another, temperament,
genetic background, incidence of other health issues that may or may not have a
DNA test available. As an example, Ragdolls have different levels of white
spotting factor that determine pattern, some breeders would just as well
eliminate one of them and tend to ostracize the other; three different blood
groups and many breeders would much prefer to work with the dominant A type but
current DNA tests are
not reliable to determine the carrier status for the recessive types; then of
course we have 'other' health issues such as cats whose kidneys shrivle until
the cat goes into renal failure (it's been refered to as 'reflux nephropathy'),
other lines where there is a genetic predisposition to cats that only have one
kidney and uterine horn; and I've even been told recently by a vet that any
relatives to a cat that died from FIP should be neutered.  These are all fatal
deseases too.  Other factors we need to steer clear of are cats with tail kinks,
skin tags, 'split eye', back leg dewclaws and a more recent one for me -
orthodontic misalignement...  Then of course you get people asking for breeding
cats that have large size, limp disposition, deep blue eye color, lots of coat
that doesn't matt or shed, dark point color but need to carry the dilution gene
and of course, they need to be from lines where the parents don't spray and they
want them cheap
too...

I agree with you that every effort should be made to eliminate a mutation that
is responsible for a serious health condition such as HCM, and ideally this
should be done as quickly as possible - one generation, two at the most. 
Obviously, the breeder needs to be aware of the potential consequence and risk
but it's all a balancing act... It's just as devestating to the breeder than the
pet owner to have a cat die.  Many breeders have quite breeding because they
became terrified to answer the phone.  We all hold our breaths when we get an
update call from a pet owner and we ask how their kitty is doing.  We feel the
pain but are also aware of the impact a bad news report can have for other
sibblings or half sibblings or sometimes unborn kittens from the repeat
breeding. Although we were counciled NOT to neuter hetero positive cats, many
breeders just could not deal with the stress, the chastizing, peer pressure or
even simply the state laws
such as pet lemon laws...  how would one plead in a case where it can be proved
that the breeder knowingly bred a positive cat... They just quite or neutered
all their positive cats anyways.  This already reduces the population greatly
and breeds have often lost their most dedicated breeders in this way.

It's fine and dandy to say that a breeder cannot place any of the positive cats
or kittens, and should keep them all, but it's a whole different thing to do... 
So many cats have been euthanized because of such positions...  This was
reported to us by the person that helped with the initial screaning by DNA of
the Main Coon mutation.  It is very sad to hear, especially since with time, it
became obvious that eliminating that mutation was not the end of HCM, and that
most of the cats that had the mutation still lived happy normal lives...

Knowledge is a good thing, but even science is frustratingly imperfect at
times...  I remember attending the first conference Dr Kittleson gave
stipulating that HCM in Main Coons was dominant, and since it was in humans too,
then it was likely to be in other cat breeds too.  Ragdoll breeders were
eliminating cats from their breeding program even if ultrasounds were normal,
often neutering both parents, sibblings and whole catteries were shunned to
avoid getting the 'nasty genes'.  People all steered to other catteries that
suddenly became 'popular' until they too had a few cases of HCM or something
else.  Then Kittleson found the mutation and like I mentionned above, the goal
was to eliminate it. He wasn't interested in studying other mutations or even
other breeds at the time.  Even the Main Coon study, he himself admitted, was
done because he was bullied into it by a breeder that wanted to know what it was
that was killing her cats.  Main Coon
cats, their breeders and whole breeding programs paid dearly for the hast in
reacting to the discovery.

Ragdoll breeders are not 'lucky' that the mutation was found...  although little
credit was provided, it was the breeders that took this health concern seriously
and started doing fund raising, bending over backwards and stepping on egg sells
trying to interest researchers to work on our 'problem'.  Although some of the
funding also came from large oranizations such as Winn (also funded in great
part by breeders and pet enthousiasts), the breeders were gathering in the order
of 20 - 30 thousand dollars a year for several years to get this mystery
resolved.  We were lucky in the sense that with these efforts, the mutation was
located after only the 2nd or 3rd attempt at investigating a suspect gene.  At
the recent conference I attended, they hope with a new SNIP test that research
in addition problematic genes will be making giant strides in the very near
futur. Now, researchers are uniting their efforts to get together the million or
so dollars
needed to make this tool a reality.

Lastly, the Main Coon mutation was found in Ragdolls very early on - probably in
the first few months of the DNA test being available commercially. I'm surprised
Dr Kittleson did not know about it, perhaps he simply did not have time to go
into it during his talk.  True it appears to be rare, but because of this rare
'tag', most breeders are not testing for it either.  Like I said above, we are
still very early in the generations that follow 'tested' parents, and many of
the cats currently being reported as having HCM come from breedings done before
DNA tests were available.  It will be interesting to know if in a couple of
years from now the incidence of clinical cases of HCM are still being reported
and only then will we know for sure if there are other mutations. Considering
the amount of outcrossing to other breeds as well as to domestic cats that took
place early on as well as to develop new colors, it would not surprise me that
there are other
mutations lurking.  I asked and it appears that the original reports of HCM from
other mutations were not confirmed properly - and there were issues with
parentage so the data was disregarded.

Getting proper diagnosis on cats in pet homes is very difficult if not
impossible to do...  As you may or may not know, in our breed, many of the cases
are ones where the cat is fine and then next thing you know it keals over and
dies.  Some go into congestive heart failure or they get saddle thrombosis and
people not wanting to see their animals suffer, not having the substantial
financial resources necessary to test and treat, they have the cat PTS.  They
morne and often call the breeder weeks later to tell.  Every breeder I know
offers health warranty on their kittens. Most of us require a necropsy but I
would say that the only ones I've ever had were ones that I actually had done. I
still replace the cats because... just because... The new advice given to
breeders is to actually collect DNA on all the kittens and just stash it away
for such days where 'things' happen or when tests become available and you just
want to 'know'.

I had found your response to be long and complexe and I'm afraid I've matched
it.  Hopefully we've both covered, in addition to all the other responses
provided already, all of the aspects that poor Linda needs to take into
consideration when she gets her test results back and next speaks to her
mourning pet owner.

Isabelle

________________________________
From: Mother Stephania <srstephanie@...>
To: Isabelle Bellavance <callimico@...>
Cc: Fanciershealth List <fanciershealth@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2009 6:52:58 PM
Subject: Re: [FAN-H] First case of cardio in 20 years of breeding...

Hi Isabelle,

I should apologize for my previous post. I'm usually much more careful about
information when I post ... but while I live in Montreal, I'm currently visiting
a friend in Toronto and made the mistake of trying to reply too quickly this
morning (my friend took me to Niagara Falls today).

I had the incredible experience last June of attending the annual meeting of the
American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine (ACVIM Forum) which met in
Montreal. I'm sorry you didn't have the opportunity to attend as well while they
were here. The last day of the ACVIM Forum, Dr Mark Kittleson (I know I don't
need to tell you who he is) gave a 4 hour "graduate course" on Feline HCM. It
was great.

At the time, Dr Kittleson was only aware of the one mutation being found in
Ragdolls, but it is true that I have heard that there have been a small number
of Ragdolls with the Maine Coon mutation ... so, it is wise for Ragdoll breeders
to test for both known mutations, though from what I've heard, only a very small
number have been found to have the MC mutation. It is new to me that there have
been cases of Ragdolls with clinical HCM that do not have either the MC or
Ragdoll mutations (and other physical conditions like hyperthyroidism or
hypertension have been ruled out so that it is primary HCM). The last time I
asked, I was told all cases of HCM in Ragdolls could be accounted for by one of
the known mutations.

But I think that the best that breeders can do, for now, is to test for the
mutations that we do know exist and breed away from them. Dr Kittleson (who, as
you know, has worked primarily with Maine Coons for about 17 years), personally,
would rather that not even heterozygotes be bred. His reasoning is that ...
breeders, who by definition, use selective breeding to advance the breed, are
only using about 10% of the available cats in breeding programs and selling the
others as pets. He feels that rather than breeding heterozyous cats that may
meet the breed standard better ... that breeders should replace them with
negative cats that may not be perfect examples of the breed and would otherwise
have been sold as pets. I'm not sure from a breeder's perspective (and I'm NOT a
breeder) that there are not some problems in his theory ... but it is worth
considering.

Having said that, Dr Kittleson will concede that there may be some heterozygotes
who have qualities that can't be found elsewhere that breeders want to preserve
... so he would suggest ONE and ONLY ONE breeding of a heterozygote to a
negative cat and replace the heterozygote with a negative kitten. What is
important (at least to me as a potential pet owner) is that breeders replace
heterozygous cats within one generation. There after, they can honestly make
claims that they do not have those two mutations in their breeding lines ...
though, of course, it is still possible for an unknown mutation to still exist
within the breed. However, I'm still under the impression (and I'd be interested
in hearing more info if you have it) that clinical HCM in Ragdolls that don't
have either of the two known  mutations is very rare.

From what I've heard, Ragdolls seem to be in a better position than most breeds.
Even in Dr Kittleson's Maine Coon colony, he has cats with severe HCM that are
negative for the MC (and RD) mutation. So they know they have an unidentified
mutation causing disease ... and I think it is more common than unknown
mutations in Ragdolls. I know RagaMuffins also have the RD mutation ... though,
interestingly, all so far are heterozyous and none have clinical HCM ... but
there are a small number of RagaMuffins with HCM and none of them have either
the RD or MC mutations. So, like the MC, they know they have an unknown mutation
that can't yet be tested for that causes disease. I think that the last I heard,
in humans there are something like 400 or more mutations on 12 or so genes that
can cause HCM ... so there could be many more mutations found in cats as well.

While it is true that the homozygous cats are much more likely to have severe
disease with an earlier onset and heterozyous cats more likely to have less
severe (and frequently no clinical disease at all) with a later onset (and males
generally have earier onset and more severe disease than females) ... the one
point that Dr Kittleson made repeatedly is that it is a completely unpredictable
disease. Some have mild disease that never progresses ... and others in the same
litter can have an earlier onset of disease that progresses rapidly. He even has
some that progress quickly to severe HCM but then stabilize for years. He hasn't
found anything that consistently alters the course of disease (other than lasix
after the onset of congestive heart failure). I could sense his frustration
after so many years of research that very few answers have been found. All we
can do at this point is to try to breed away from known mutations, scan all
breeding cats
regularly and continue the research.

I agree that the 25% figure of HCM mutation in Ragdolls is misleading ... not
just because many do not show clinical signs of disease ... but because the cats
selected for DNA testing are not arbitrary and representative of the entire
breed. Only cats used in breeding programs are, for the most part, tested and
breeders will generally firsttestcats that they have more suspicions about (e.g.
related to cats that had heart disease, etc). Once cats have tested negative,
then it is unlikely that any of their offspring will be DNA tested (at least for
those mutations) since both parents were tested negative. So, those many
negative offspring will not be included in the percentages of tested cats (of
whom 25% have been found to be positive). I hope that makes sense. I think
(again as a non-breeder) that there needs to be a balance between not panicking
over the mutations on the one hand, and taking them seriously and breeding away
from them as quickly as
possible on the other.

While there isn't anything we can do about unknown mutations ... other than
having breeding cats scanned (i.e. via echocardiogram by a cardiologist)
regularly during and after their breeding years, I think (from my perspective as
a pet owner) that at this point, ethical breeding means DNA testing for the
mutations that we do have tests for and eliminating them as soon as possible. Dr
Kittleson feels that it is unethical to sell heterozygous kittens, and breeders
should be prepared to keep heterozygous kittens that they produce ... but if
they are offered for sale, he believes that the potential owner should be fully
informed of the test results and what that means in terms of potential of
developing HCM. I hope no breeder will ever feel it is okay to sell a
heterozygous kitten because they "may" not ever develop HCM. I hope that all
breeders will use the DNA tests to eliminate ASAP the known causes of HCM ...
and keep scanning all cats to identify cats
that may have unknown mutations causing HCM. That is all any pet owner could
ever ask of a breeder and the best that can be done for now to produce healthy
kittens ... in any breed.

I also believe that pet owners need to be better educated so that they will
understand the importance of informing breeders of any serious health issue with
their cats. If I were a breeder ... I think it would be good to have in the
contract a requirement that any cats that die unexpectedly, particularly at a
young age, be given a necropsy ... especially looking for HCM ... with the
results given to the breeder. Pet owners have an important role in helping the
health of breeds.

Sorry to get on a soap box. I'm hoping to get a new kitten soon and these issues
have become personal as well as important to me. I am very appreciative of all
the good and conscientious breeders that do all they can to produce healthy
kittens.

Again, my apologies for the quick reply this morning that gave misleading
information and left out important points. Thank you for correcting them.

Stephanie in Montreal (currently visiting Toronto)

PS: Let me know if you would like a copy of the Proceedings for Dr Kittleson's
four 1 hour talks at last Junes ACVIM forum.

________________________________

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My cat's belly swelled up when he began taking plavix, because it was so hard on
his stomach.  Have you added any new meds or anything new lately?

--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "the_klam" <kmelrose@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all.  I'm sorry I don't post much, but I do read the mail out, and I
find this a great resource.
>
> My male oriental cat, Doodle, was dx with HCM about 18months ago.  He is on
atenenol, cardio S, and he also has natto.  To date he has been well and without
symptoms.
>
> This morning he woke up coughing, but was fine within a minute.  This evening,
I am sure he looks really bloated arun the abdomen, by which I mean around his
ribs, but 'before' you get to what I would call his tummy (ie: the pouchy bit
that swings around...!)
>
> He has not eaten more than usual and it has been raining all day so I doubt he
has gone out and eaten anywhere else.
>
> I believe that his respiration could be faster than usual (he goes as slow as
16 - 20 per minute when fast asleep) but in truth, I never monitor his waking
breathing so I can't be sure (I will check later).
>
> I could be worrying about nothing here, but please would you let me know what
you think this could be?  This bloating is definitely noteworthy, but is
unaccompanied by another symptoms.
>
> Please let me know what you think - I have just given him is daily meds as
usual.
>

Melissa, my cat cried out and walked around (and he never cries) and lost
control of his bladder/bowels when he suffered an arrythimia one night.  I would
definitely have them check for that also.

--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "smittyhj82" <smittyhj82@...> wrote:
>
> Winston- 6 month old male Ragdoll. Diagnosed with HCM, grade 4 Gallop Rythym.
On Lasix (1/4 once a day), Atenolol (1/4 tab once a day) and Baby asprin, every
third day.
>
> HAS NEVER had an accident in his life, even having to find a litter box in
unfamiliar surroundings. This morning he peed on my bed. 5 minutes prior to
this, he pooped in the litter box, which i cleaned right away. I then walked in
the bed room to find him covering up a large pool of urine on my down comforter.
I cleaned it up and will take the comforter to the dry cleaner at lunch. No
urine on sheets...
>
> Right before he peed he was walking around the house crying, not painful
yowling, but crying, which is crazy unlike him, as he is quite a silent guy.
(Never speaks much).....
>
> I called the vet, not totally ruling out behavioral, even though its hard for
me to believe, but he has an appt tomorrow morning.
>
> He has been on lasix for 3 weeks and hasnt had an issue- AT ALL...this is why
i am kinda shocked.
>
> Has this every happened to anyone? Urinary accidents? I believe when he was
meowing he was either hurting, or confused, so he went on the bed....but i
really would be disappointed if this is a behavioral issue. I have another
Ragdoll, Oliver, who has also never had an issue and Winston has been around him
since June 2009.
>
> Please, if you have an insight as to why this may have happened, please let me
know. I am very worried. It was alot of urine, so he doesnt appear to have any
kind of blockage.....
>
> Thanks- Melissa and Winnie.
>

Hi everyone I unfortunately have bad news to report regarding Carmen. She was
out of the hospital for one week and last night started breathing with a lot of
effort. The breaths per minute were in the normal range but she was using her
abdomen to breathe, so I took her in and they detected fluid again in her lungs.
This is the third CHF since mid July.  They have kept her overnight last night
and am waiting to hear if she can come home toinght. The one good thing was that
she continued to eat in the ER and did not need oxygen at any time.

Last week when she got out of the hospital, she had started her increased dosage
of lasix : 1 tab in the morning and 1/2 tab 12 hours later in the evening. The
tabs were 12.5 mg. She took one enalapril in the morning.

I am of course devastated and now thinking the worst. Am trying to find hope in
the stories of those kitties who had several CHF episodes and pulled through
once the right med combination was discovered..if any of you are out there I
would love to hear from you and also what has been done when the lasix dosage no
longer seems to be working. She was fine on only 1/2 tab Lasix a day from mid
July up until one week ago, so I can only assume her underlying condition is
worsening.

Her kidneys again look excellent so I know there is some hope of adjusting the
meds and today I ordered CoQ10 supplements and a kidney support supplement to
try and protect that as long as possible.

Please keep her in your prayers.

Ildiko

From the research I have done since Helmet passed, if a cat can't lay down on
it's side – like they usually do – and they prop themselves up against something
or sit on their sternum (with paws tucked under them) and you don't see them lay
on their side at all – then it could be a sign of CHF or fluid build up.  Some
cats like to lay with their paws tucked under them, but if that is the only way
they lie, or appear to be uncomfortable lying on their side, then it could be
more.

Immediately after Helmet's IBD biopsy surgery, when at home, he couldn't lay on
his side for very long.  He had to lay in such a way that propped himself up.  I
attributed this to the IBD surgery and his sore intestines and bowels.  But,
looking back now, that could have also been the beginning of heart problems.

They prop themselves up because it relieves the pressure of the fluid build-up.

Just some food for thought.

Darlene & Angel Helmet

Hi Darlene,

Sorry to hear about your beloved Helmet.

When I read your post I immediately thought of little April. The thing is we
aren't sure when she got HCM since she wasn't diagnosed and asymptomatic. And I
vividly recall her last nite with us how she had laid on her side which we found
a bit out of the ordinary. ON the other hand, weeks before she had a habit of
sitting up, which she had never done before.

--- In feline-heart@yahoogroups.com, "darlenehandley" <dehandley@...> wrote:
>
> From the research I have done since Helmet passed, if a cat can't lay down on
it's side – like they usually do – and they prop themselves up against something
or sit on their sternum (with paws tucked under them) and you don't see them lay
on their side at all – then it could be a sign of CHF or fluid build up.  Some
cats like to lay with their paws tucked under them, but if that is the only way
they lie, or appear to be uncomfortable lying on their side, then it could be
more.
>
> Immediately after Helmet's IBD biopsy surgery, when at home, he couldn't lay
on his side for very long.  He had to lay in such a way that propped himself up.
I attributed this to the IBD surgery and his sore intestines and bowels.  But,
looking back now, that could have also been the beginning of heart problems.
>
> They prop themselves up because it relieves the pressure of the fluid
build-up.
>
> Just some food for thought.
>
> Darlene & Angel Helmet
>

Hi
PLEASE check into Rutin. You can do a search on here for information or
WholeCatHealth@yahoogroups.com  Also go to files on this group
and Information on Rutin is there (you can print this and take to your vet if
need be)

It closes the vessels that leak. It takes about 2 weeks for
the lungs to be completely clear, but you should see results
within a few days. Not everyone has had success with Rutin
but not everything works for everyone. In my case it was a MIRACLE
it saved my cats life!! Just so you are aware not many vets know
about this i had to educate my vet about Rutin. Now the recommened
to many other clients.

You can get it at a health food store or online I use
vitacost.com  you need 500mg (i use counrtylife) 2x daily
(the tablets are quite large so you will break/cut into 4)
it is under $8.00 a bottle

Hope this helps ((((kitty hugs and prayers)))
Patty

Ildiko,

I'd say that Carmen just needs her meds adjusted.  First, lasix is only
effective for about 6 hours after it's given so you may want to talk to your
cardiologist about giving it three times daily, rather than twice.  Then you
could give her half of a pill each time and not increase the amount she's
getting.  If that doesn't work, the dose could be increased.  My girl was up
to 60mg daily (20mg TID).  She was a big girl and weighed about 13+ pounds
towards the end.  Originally, she'd been a heft 18+ pounds.

There are also other diuretics.  Lasix works primarily on fluid in the
lungs.  Other diuretics such a spironolactone and hydroclorothiazide (HCTZ)
work on fluid outside of the lungs.  I know from Candace that there has been
controversy about giving spiro to cats, but my girl did really well on it
for quite some time.  I'm sure she wouldn't have lasted as long as she did
if it weren't for the combination of diuretics.  She was taking all three of
these together.

I remember the days of thinking that her meds were adjusted correctly and
she was stable, only to find that she was having difficulties breathing and
needed another adjustment.  It's very stressful, but as long as you're aware
of the change and get her to the vet quickly, she should be fine.  I had
many times that I thought she would pass, but she bounced back and did well
for quite some time.

It's good that you saw the difference in breathing.  Maybe you will see it
even faster next time and not need to have her stay at the hospital.  Some
vets will prescribe injectable lasix so you can help her out of trouble.

Remember to stay calm as Carmen will absorb your worry and become stressed.

Hugs to you & Carmen!!

Sue and angels Pepper & Gandy
with current kitties Nicholai, Lola-Joy & Isabella.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Ildiko" <ildikojuhasz@...>
To: <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 6:30 PM
Subject: [FH] What happens when Lasix isnt enough?


> Hi everyone I unfortunately have bad news to report regarding Carmen. She
> was out of the hospital for one week and last night started breathing with
> a lot of effort. The breaths per minute were in the normal range but she
> was using her abdomen to breathe, so I took her in and they detected fluid
> again in her lungs. This is the third CHF since mid July.  They have kept
> her overnight last night and am waiting to hear if she can come home
> toinght. The one good thing was that she continued to eat in the ER and
> did not need oxygen at any time.
>
> Last week when she got out of the hospital, she had started her increased
> dosage of lasix : 1 tab in the morning and 1/2 tab 12 hours later in the
> evening. The tabs were 12.5 mg. She took one enalapril in the morning.
>
> I am of course devastated and now thinking the worst. Am trying to find
> hope in the stories of those kitties who had several CHF episodes and
> pulled through once the right med combination was discovered..if any of
> you are out there I would love to hear from you and also what has been
> done when the lasix dosage no longer seems to be working. She was fine on
> only 1/2 tab Lasix a day from mid July up until one week ago, so I can
> only assume her underlying condition is worsening.
>
> Her kidneys again look excellent so I know there is some hope of adjusting
> the meds and today I ordered CoQ10 supplements and a kidney support
> supplement to try and protect that as long as possible.
>
> Please keep her in your prayers.
>
> Ildiko
>

Hi Patty;

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tabbyandpeachy" <oceanbreeze1@...>
>Just so you are aware not many vets know
> about this i had to educate my vet about Rutin. Now the recommened
> to many other clients.

Yes, there are papers and abstracts out there supporting the use of rutin on
cats that should be enough to convince any vet:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1180424&blobtype=pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10434971
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=339399&blobtype=pdf
http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2005.226.1667
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=539228&blobtype=pdf
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1476505&blobtype=pdf

I have been considering discussing it with our vet before Pepper starts
needing to prop himself up again.

Pat and all the boys
http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/

Hi everyone,
  I'm wondering if any of you has experience w/ this or can shed any light on
it. My cat, WInston, is exhibiting weird water drinking patterns. He is drinking
water everywhere but his dish -- which is full of clean water. He's jumping up
and drinking water out of dishes soaking in the sink; he's drunk out of the
toilet a few times, and even drank water that had beaded up on the bathtub mat
in the bathtub! I don't get it. His water dish is clean and full of fresh water.
I've brought him over to it a bunch of times. He looks at it and cries and
before you know it, he's back up jumping into the sink.
    He's on lasix and I know that can cause dehyradtion. He doesn't seem
dehyrated I dont think. At first, I just thought this was weird and just about
the allure of the forbidden, but now... I don tknow. I'm a lttle worried. Anyone
ever see this? Shoudl I be worried?
  Cathy & Winston


At the height of laughter, the universe is flung into a kaleidoscope of new
possibilities. ~Jean Houston





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Cathy,

Is his water dish next to his food dish or around his food?  Many cats do not
like to drink water where they eat, so the first thing I might do is to move the
water dish to another location away from the food.  The other thing you might
try is a tall glass.  Cats seem to like drinking out of tall dishes rather than
low bowls many times.  If it is the fresh running water he is after, try getting
one of those water fountains.  We have a drinkwell and one of my cats loves it
and the other ignores it, so you never know.  It might just be that the dish is
clean to you but not to him or he doesn't like where it is located.  You might
try putting water in several spots.  My cats have water on the desk in the guest
room, on the kitchen counter (I know, bad mommy for letting kitties on the
counter), and in the bathroom.

I don't know it this helps.
Kristen





________________________________
From: cathy coleman <catherama@...>
To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2009 2:08:56 AM
Subject: [FH] Weird water drinking


Hi everyone,
   I'm wondering if any of you has experience w/ this or can shed any light on
it. My cat, WInston, is exhibiting weird water drinking patterns. He is drinking
water everywhere but his dish -- which is full of clean water. He's jumping up
and drinking water out of dishes soaking in the sink; he's drunk out of the
toilet a few times, and even drank water that had beaded up on the bathtub mat
in the bathtub! I don't get it. His water dish is clean and full of fresh water.
I've brought him over to it a bunch of times. He looks at it and cries and
before you know it, he's back up jumping into the sink.
     He's on lasix and I know that can cause dehyradtion. He doesn't seem
dehyrated I dont think. At first, I just thought this was weird and just about
the allure of the forbidden, but now... I don tknow. I'm a lttle worried. Anyone
ever see this? Shoudl I be worried?
   Cathy & Winston

At the height of laughter, the universe is flung into a kaleidoscope of new
possibilities. ~Jean Houston

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Cathy;

----- Original Message -----
From: "cathy coleman" <catherama@...>
>WInston, is exhibiting weird water drinking patterns. He is drinking water
>everywhere but his dish -- which is full of >clean water.

Just last evening I admonished DH for playing a game with Pepper in that he
was letting the cold water dribble out of the tub tap just a little more
than it was draining out of the tub so that Pepper was having to slowing
back up to where he was going to be a bit stuck and unable to jump out of
the tub. (-;

Once I babysat for friends whose cat needed fresh water in the bathroom sink
every day.  I have seen cats do some pretty strange things with water at
times.  We have one cat that often prefers to use the bucket that has warmer
water than the others, and sometimes he prefers the cooler water.  We have
three buckets spread around the house for grazing and that seems to work
well for us as our boys don't become dehydrated.

Pepper sometimes likes ice cubes in the bucket, just to play with like
little boats.  I have a photo of him with his water games at "3.1.08", about
2/3 down his page:
http://pat-fearlessfosdick.blogspot.com/  It is a bit difficult to see the
ice as it was fairly melted by the time I thought to take a photo.

It may possible be the light reflecting on water that causes this, or
perhaps it makes the moving water look like prey?  At the same time, I would
never think of bathing Pepper as he hates it with a passion if he is not
approaching it from a cat perspective.  We used to have an awful time
cleaning him up when he had his 'diarrhea' phase of the illness.  I am just
glad we didn't ruin his enjoyment of water in the good times.

Pat and all the boys
http://felinenutritionalnotes.blogspot.com/
http://petfoodpitfalls.blogspot.com/

Hello everyone;

Thanks first of all for your encouragement. My Carmen will be coming home later
today. I spoke at length with the cardiologist and he said it was disappointing
that her meds hadnt worked thus far, but her kidneys have held up well so we are
going to go much more aggressive in the treatment to keep the fluid off her
lungs. He will be giving several kinds of diuretics besides Lasix I will find
out later on today what those will be. He is still "cautiously optimistic" that
this could work, but also stated if shes back in heart failure in another week,
then it could be her time.

I am so grateful to have found this group and am going to just enjoy every
second I have with her and hope that the new med combination is going to work
and keep her fluid free. It is so hard because she is still just so full of
life, loves her food and watching birds and grooming herself...its just that her
little heart cannot keep up it seems. Am asking you to keep her in your
prayers...

Ildiko

I thought Rutin only controls Chylous Effusion - when the fluid is milky
white, and which can only be seen when a chest tap is done.  I didn't
think Rutin controls clear fluid.  Is this correct? or is Rutin now known to
help control clear fluid?


*Chylothorax in Dogs and Cats*
**
"Chylothorax develops when chyle, fluid containing a high concentration of
chylomicrons and lymph, effuses from the thoracic duct-cisterna chyli system
into the pleural space.

Chylous effusion classically has been described as a milky-white pleural
fluid that fails to become clear upon centrifugation."
**
ttp://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/Rockwell/index.php<http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/cl\
erk/Rockwell/index.php>


Candace with Cinnamon and Skylar



Pat wrote:
I have been considering discussing it with our vet before Pepper starts
needing to prop himself up again.
Pat and all the boys



Patty wrote:
PLEASE check into Rutin.
It closes the vessels that leak. It takes about 2 weeks for
the lungs to be completely clear, but you should see results
within a few days. Patty


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Hi Cathy,

Excessive water drinking *may* be a sign of CRF, Hyperthyroidism or
Diabetes.

Heart meds and Lasix can have an effect on kidney function..

It may be that Winston is just looking for fresh water that tastes different
from his water bowls, but if you are worried and it seems excessive then I
would bring him to the vet for full bloodwork including T4 test for
Hyperthyroidism, renal panel and a urinalysis..


Candace with Cinnamon and Skylar



On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 2:08 AM, cathy coleman <catherama@...> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>   I'm wondering if any of you has experience w/ this or can shed any light
> on it. My cat, WInston, is exhibiting weird water drinking patterns. He is
> drinking water everywhere but his dish -- which is full of clean water. He's
> jumping up and drinking water out of dishes soaking in the sink; he's drunk
> out of the toilet a few times, and even drank water that had beaded up on
> the bathtub mat in the bathtub! I don't get it. His water dish is clean and
> full of fresh water. I've brought him over to it a bunch of times. He looks
> at it and cries and before you know it, he's back up jumping into the sink.
>     He's on lasix and I know that can cause dehyradtion. He doesn't seem
> dehyrated I dont think. At first, I just thought this was weird and just
> about the allure of the forbidden, but now... I don tknow. I'm a lttle
> worried. Anyone ever see this? Shoudl I be worried?
>   Cathy & Winston
>
>
> At the height of laughter, the universe is flung into a kaleidoscope of new
> possibilities. ~Jean Houston
>
>
>
>
>
>


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