Thanks, Helen. I'm sorry to hear that Harpsie is having troubles and
I hope things take a turn for the better.

Wow, I hadn't thought of TWO kittens! It was enough trying to get my
partner Tina to agree to getting ONE! I'll propose the idea tonight,
however, and see what happens. I don't really know if Katarina will
feel better about that. . . she may feel outnumbered! We went to Bide-
A-Wee yesterday but didn't fall in love with any kitties - we're
planning to go to a different location on Friday afternoon. We're
both still quite depressed but I'm confident that the new little one
will cheer us up considerably.

-Krista

--- In feline-heart@y..., "Helen" <helenandcats@n...> wrote:
> I've been thinking of you, Krista, I'm sorry I didn't write but
Harpsie's
> had me worried lately. I know you are in pain, but I'm glad you are
at least
> starting to accept that your decision was not the wrong one. You
acted out
> of love, so how could it be?
>
> I agree, two kittens might be a good idea.
>
> Comforts
>
> Helen, Harpsie, Indie and Karma, and Angels Tanya, George and Thomas
>
> > Thank you, each and everyone of you, for helping me feel better
about
> > our decision with Bailey. I really do feel better - sometimes you
> > just need someone else to tell you that you did the right thing!
> >
> > It was lovely yesterday at the Hartsdale Pet Cemetary and we
brought
> > Bailey's ashes home in a nice little tin. The people there are so
> > professional and it was a very nice send-off for the little guy.
> >
> > On happier notes, Katarina is thrilled to be an only child again.
> > Little does she know she'll soon have a little kitten around to
> > torture her! We've decided we definitely want another ball of fur
> > rolling around the place, after we've had a few more days to
grieve
> > fully for Bail. By next weekend I think we'll be a two cat family
> > again.
> >
> > -Krista
> >

Krista,

I found that with one kitten, they tend to latch onto one adult. Or in the
case of Kali, terrorize each adult.  :)

The only time we had more than one was when we got The Kids, who were
pretty feral. They eventually formed relationships with either themselves
or another cat in the house, but didn't seem to latch on as bad as I've
seen before.

I would have gotten two last year after Kearra died but that would have put
us back to 7 which is an awful lot.

I'd highly suggest it, they really keep themselves occupied. At least
they'll have the same energy level as each other. <G>

Good to see you're looking around - don't worry, that special one will
reach out to you.

Diane


>Wow, I hadn't thought of TWO kittens! It was enough trying to get my
>partner Tina to agree to getting ONE! I'll propose the idea tonight,
>however, and see what happens. I don't really know if Katarina will
>feel better about that. . . she may feel outnumbered! We went to Bide-
>A-Wee yesterday but didn't fall in love with any kitties - we're
>planning to go to a different location on Friday afternoon. We're
>both still quite depressed but I'm confident that the new little one
>will cheer us up considerably.

I don't know if anyone has recommended rutin yet, but that is what
someone told me to use. That person switched their cat off lasix, I
believe, and rutin controlled the fluid build-up. I tried it,
however, and my cat would not eat it in his wet food. The pills are
also very large so it would be impossible to pill my cat with them.

My vets have told me that eventually the lasix stops being effective
at controlling the fluid build-up. However, I have done some research
on the web and some info seemed to indicate that people can build up
tolerance to one diuretic. Oftentimes, several are used. However, I
have never discussed this with my vet nor has one ever recommended a
different diuretic.

For the record, my cat is currently on 2.5mg Enacard 2x a day (or 5mg
a day) and 25mg lasix 2x a day (or 50mg a day). Again, none of the
vets I talked to recommended I increase it to that level -- it was a
risk I took on my own because the lower dosage was not effective and
the only other choice was another trip to the emergency vets
(expensive and stressful for my cat).

--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
> thanx for responding so fast....no he only has damage on the left
and I
> did ask about injectgable and she said no but we have switched vets
and
> have another appt today and will ask him...
> how much dandelion did you give on top of lasix?
>
> VHess2000@c... wrote:
>
> >My cat had restrictive cardiomyopathy as well, which probably has
the worse
> >prospects of any of the feline heart problems.   It is unclear,
why cats get
> >it -- some may have had a virus, or it might be an autoimmune
problem. On
> >average, cats diagnosed with RCM only live 3 - 9 months after
diagnosis.
> >Kira only lived 6 months, and suffered 2 blood clots. I suspect
that your cat
> >might have damage to both ventricles of the heart, as opposed to
most readers
> >on the list, whose HCM cats have left ventricle involvement only.
Hearts
> >with damage to both ventricles have twice the problem with
fluid.   You could
> >try giving the cat, dandelion in addition to oral lasix, but I
would strongly
> >suggest getting your vet to give you injectable lasix, which can
relieve
> >fluid-build up in a matter of hours.  The injections are a little
more
> >difficult to give, (given at the base of the rib cage), but saves
you and the
> >cat stressful and expensive trips to the vet.  You'd probably have
to give it
> >1x or 2x a week, in addition to the dandelion and oral lasix.
Also, are you
> >using a sodium-restricted food?
> >
> >Victoria
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >

I actually just put frankie on rutin-he is getting 250mg 3xday-so far no
fuild build up again, but it has only been a week-increased his lasis
does to 12.5 3xday as well so hopefully this combo is helping.  How is
your kitty's renal function on 5mg of enacard a day? we are at 2.5mg and
showed some inc creatin levels-possibly goingto switch him norvasc
instead which is suppodesly better...
how long has it been since your kitty was diagnosed?  what is the lowest
lasix dose you are able to contriol fuild with-the 25mg 2xday?  how long
would he/she go between crisis on lowere doses and have you been able to
control for a good period of time now?  for both of you I hope so....
sounds like you have been going threw the same thing as us-so diffacult.
  to top things off frankie had a repeat ulthrasound today and things
have goten a lote worse...life is so unfair!  please fill me in on the
rest of your details as I would love to be able tpo better manage
frankie too

thanx
alexis

mukki2@... wrote:

>I don't know if anyone has recommended rutin yet, but that is what
>someone told me to use. That person switched their cat off lasix, I
>believe, and rutin controlled the fluid build-up. I tried it,
>however, and my cat would not eat it in his wet food. The pills are
>also very large so it would be impossible to pill my cat with them.
>
>My vets have told me that eventually the lasix stops being effective
>at controlling the fluid build-up. However, I have done some research
>on the web and some info seemed to indicate that people can build up
>tolerance to one diuretic. Oftentimes, several are used. However, I
>have never discussed this with my vet nor has one ever recommended a
>different diuretic.
>
>For the record, my cat is currently on 2.5mg Enacard 2x a day (or 5mg
>a day) and 25mg lasix 2x a day (or 50mg a day). Again, none of the
>vets I talked to recommended I increase it to that level -- it was a
>risk I took on my own because the lower dosage was not effective and
>the only other choice was another trip to the emergency vets
>(expensive and stressful for my cat).
>
>--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
>
>>thanx for responding so fast....no he only has damage on the left
>>
>and I
>
>>did ask about injectgable and she said no but we have switched vets
>>
>and
>
>>have another appt today and will ask him...
>>how much dandelion did you give on top of lasix?
>>
>>VHess2000@c... wrote:
>>
>>>My cat had restrictive cardiomyopathy as well, which probably has
>>>
>the worse
>
>>>prospects of any of the feline heart problems.   It is unclear,
>>>
>why cats get
>
>>>it -- some may have had a virus, or it might be an autoimmune
>>>
>problem. On
>
>>>average, cats diagnosed with RCM only live 3 - 9 months after
>>>
>diagnosis.
>
>>>Kira only lived 6 months, and suffered 2 blood clots. I suspect
>>>
>that your cat
>
>>>might have damage to both ventricles of the heart, as opposed to
>>>
>most readers
>
>>>on the list, whose HCM cats have left ventricle involvement only.
>>>
>Hearts
>
>>>with damage to both ventricles have twice the problem with
>>>
>fluid.   You could
>
>>>try giving the cat, dandelion in addition to oral lasix, but I
>>>
>would strongly
>
>>>suggest getting your vet to give you injectable lasix, which can
>>>
>relieve
>
>>>fluid-build up in a matter of hours.  The injections are a little
>>>
>more
>
>>>difficult to give, (given at the base of the rib cage), but saves
>>>
>you and the
>
>>>cat stressful and expensive trips to the vet.  You'd probably have
>>>
>to give it
>
>>>1x or 2x a week, in addition to the dandelion and oral lasix.
>>>
>Also, are you
>
>>>using a sodium-restricted food?
>>>
>>>Victoria
>>>
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

p.s. frankie takes the rutin orally-is somewhat big but able to take...

mukki2@... wrote:

>I don't know if anyone has recommended rutin yet, but that is what
>someone told me to use. That person switched their cat off lasix, I
>believe, and rutin controlled the fluid build-up. I tried it,
>however, and my cat would not eat it in his wet food. The pills are
>also very large so it would be impossible to pill my cat with them.
>
>My vets have told me that eventually the lasix stops being effective
>at controlling the fluid build-up. However, I have done some research
>on the web and some info seemed to indicate that people can build up
>tolerance to one diuretic. Oftentimes, several are used. However, I
>have never discussed this with my vet nor has one ever recommended a
>different diuretic.
>
>For the record, my cat is currently on 2.5mg Enacard 2x a day (or 5mg
>a day) and 25mg lasix 2x a day (or 50mg a day). Again, none of the
>vets I talked to recommended I increase it to that level -- it was a
>risk I took on my own because the lower dosage was not effective and
>the only other choice was another trip to the emergency vets
>(expensive and stressful for my cat).
>
>--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
>
>>thanx for responding so fast....no he only has damage on the left
>>
>and I
>
>>did ask about injectgable and she said no but we have switched vets
>>
>and
>
>>have another appt today and will ask him...
>>how much dandelion did you give on top of lasix?
>>
>>VHess2000@c... wrote:
>>
>>>My cat had restrictive cardiomyopathy as well, which probably has
>>>
>the worse
>
>>>prospects of any of the feline heart problems.   It is unclear,
>>>
>why cats get
>
>>>it -- some may have had a virus, or it might be an autoimmune
>>>
>problem. On
>
>>>average, cats diagnosed with RCM only live 3 - 9 months after
>>>
>diagnosis.
>
>>>Kira only lived 6 months, and suffered 2 blood clots. I suspect
>>>
>that your cat
>
>>>might have damage to both ventricles of the heart, as opposed to
>>>
>most readers
>
>>>on the list, whose HCM cats have left ventricle involvement only.
>>>
>Hearts
>
>>>with damage to both ventricles have twice the problem with
>>>
>fluid.   You could
>
>>>try giving the cat, dandelion in addition to oral lasix, but I
>>>
>would strongly
>
>>>suggest getting your vet to give you injectable lasix, which can
>>>
>relieve
>
>>>fluid-build up in a matter of hours.  The injections are a little
>>>
>more
>
>>>difficult to give, (given at the base of the rib cage), but saves
>>>
>you and the
>
>>>cat stressful and expensive trips to the vet.  You'd probably have
>>>
>to give it
>
>>>1x or 2x a week, in addition to the dandelion and oral lasix.
>>>
>Also, are you
>
>>>using a sodium-restricted food?
>>>
>>>Victoria
>>>
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mukki2@... wrote:
For the record, my cat is currently on 2.5mg Enacard 2x a day (or 5mg
a day) and 25mg lasix 2x a day (or 50mg a day). Again, none of the
vets I talked to recommended I increase it to that level -- it was a
risk I took on my own because the lower dosage was not effective and
the only other choice was another trip to the emergency vets
(expensive and stressful for my cat).

Hi,

I just wanted to pass this human link on diuretics, the concern is
that when on lasix potassium is lost.

http://www.awl.com.au/pharma/chap40.html

Cynthia, Taffy, Samuel

Hi Everyone,

Taffy will be going in at 2:00 pm, for his ultrasound, now they have
just phone me and told me that I cannot feed him after 7:00 tonight.

That means he will not receive anything 19 hours, is this a normal
practice?  When we were booked at the other Clinic, I asked whether
this needed to be done and they he could have his fluids and eat.

I wonder what's going on?

Cynthia, Taffy, Samuel

Is this a stomach ultrasound or a heart ultrasound?  That sounds insane
to me, unless they're going to knock him out, and even then I thought
you were only supposed to fast for 12 hours.  Can you tell us exactly
what they're going to do and what they're looking for?

-Debra & Tigger

Cynthia Rausch wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> Taffy will be going in at 2:00 pm, for his ultrasound, now they have
> just phone me and told me that I cannot feed him after 7:00 tonight.
>
> That means he will not receive anything 19 hours, is this a normal
> practice?  When we were booked at the other Clinic, I asked whether
> this needed to be done and they he could have his fluids and eat.
>
> I wonder what's going on?
>
> Cynthia, Taffy, Samuel
>

Cynthia,

I wouldn't let them put him out unless he is absolutely impossible to
handle. Neither Lucky nor Kassy has ever been put out, and they've had at
least six ultrasounds each. I've also taken a number of SPCA cats for
echocardiograms, and only two very difficult ones were sedated.

Kassy says every swear word in the book, and Lucky sheds half her coat, but
they eventually give in.

Good luck! Let us know as soon as you get the results.

Laura

-----Original Message-----
From: Cynthia Rausch <crosseye@...>
To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>;
Feline-CRF-Support@yahoogroups.com <Feline-CRF-Support@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Monday, October 01, 2001 4:59 PM
Subject: [feline-heart] Taffy's Ultrasound


>Hi Everyone,
>
>Taffy will be going in at 2:00 pm, for his ultrasound, now they have
>just phone me and told me that I cannot feed him after 7:00 tonight.
>
>That means he will not receive anything 19 hours, is this a normal
>practice?  When we were booked at the other Clinic, I asked whether
>this needed to be done and they he could have his fluids and eat.
>
>I wonder what's going on?
>
>Cynthia, Taffy, Samuel
>
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In feline-heart@y..., Cynthia Rausch <crosseye@t...> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Taffy will be going in at 2:00 pm, for his ultrasound, now they have
> just phone me and told me that I cannot feed him after 7:00 tonight.
>
> That means he will not receive anything 19 hours, is this a normal
> practice?  When we were booked at the other Clinic, I asked whether
> this needed to be done and they he could have his fluids and eat.
>
> I wonder what's going on?
>
> Cynthia, Taffy, Samuel

It depends on what they are ultrasounding.  If it's just the heart,
food doesn't matter.  If they are checking anything in the digestive
system, they do like the cat to have fasted.

--Kirsten

Hmmm ... this is for his heart, right?  Sounds like they're going
to sedate/anesthesize him for the ultrasound.  Is Taffy a terror
at the vets?  If not, I would not let them sedate or anesthesize
him for an ultrasound.  It is simply not necessary (& not worth
the risk).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cynthia Rausch [mailto:crosseye@...]
> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 4:58 PM
> To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com;
> Feline-CRF-Support@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [feline-heart] Taffy's Ultrasound
>
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Taffy will be going in at 2:00 pm, for his ultrasound,
> now they have
> just phone me and told me that I cannot feed him after
> 7:00 tonight.
>
> That means he will not receive anything 19 hours, is
> this a normal
> practice?  When we were booked at the other Clinic, I
> asked whether
> this needed to be done and they he could have his
> fluids and eat.
>
> I wonder what's going on?
>
> Cynthia, Taffy, Samuel
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Cynthia Rausch wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> Taffy will be going in at 2:00 pm, for his ultrasound, now they have
> just phone me and told me that I cannot feed him after 7:00 tonight.
>
> That means he will not receive anything 19 hours, is this a normal
> practice?  When we were booked at the other Clinic, I asked whether
> this needed to be done and they he could have his fluids and eat.

I don't know that this is necessary.  When we did the ultrasound, we had no
such instructions.  Are they doing other tests that warrant this?

Anyes and the girls

Dear Voula -
I already know Sachie was very lucky to have you.  I look forward to seeing
her web page.  And remeber, Sachie still lives through you.  You are so
wonderful and compassionate when someone loses a pet, and quick to help if
you can when someone has a question.  Thank you.
Jan

http://joekopecky.homestead.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Voula <catwoman1@...>
To: <feline-hyperT@yahoogroups.com>;
<Caring-For-CRF-Felines@yahoogroups.com>; <FelineCRF@yahoogroups.com>;
<Feline-CRF-Support@yahoogroups.com>; <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>;
<feline_lymphoma@yahoogroups.com>; <Angel_on_My_Shoulders@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 2:59 AM
Subject: [feline-heart] Sachie's one year anniversary


> Dear friends,
>      it is one year today since my Sachie passed. I cannot believe it has
been one year. It feels like yesterday. Thank you to everyone for all the
help you gave me when my Sachie was ill and when she died. Thank you also
for continuing to offer me comfort and support in this past year. I cannot
tell you what it means to me to have met you all. You have been a safe
harbour in one of the hardest years of my life. As many of you know I lost
both Sachie and my Pebbles this past year. It has been very hard living
without them. But I thank God I was sent my Lucy who I love with all my
heart and Soul. I am preparing a web page to add to my web site of my
memories of Sachie, to mark her one year anniversary, which I will share
with you when I am finished. God Bless you all.
> Apologies if some of you receive multiple copies as I am on a lot of
groups.
> Love, Voula
> www.geocities.com/vaugerinos/Pebbles.html
> (photos of my girls and other animal friends)
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hi Everyone,

I called the clinic and asked what was going on, and the vet tech
that will be assisting the Doctor said that they might have to sedate
Taffy.

Well of course I told them I didn't think it was necessary, as he
had already had a particle ultrasound done just a week ago.
Something happened to the equipment they were unable to read
the measurements for his heart.

Its been quite a rollercoaster, last week we had another appointment
which was canceled Thursday, so we are now on the third clinic
within 10 days.  They told me that they were waiting for a cardiac
table from the U.S., which must have come in, as they called today
to see if we could come in tomorrow.

They at first wanted me to drop Taffy off at 8:00 am, and then
I could pick him up at 5:00.  Very carefully I suggested this might
be to stressful for Taffy if in fact there are problems.

I was so excited and happy that we didn't have to wait, and when
she told me that Taffy couldn't eat after 7:00, it just didn't register.

This is a new clinic that has what most vets here in Calgary saying
the envy of Canada.  So I really didn't want to push my luck for
getting in as fast as we did.  Taffy is and will be munching away.

I want to thank each and everyone for your notes, its very much
appreciated.

Hugs,

Cynthia, Taffy, Samuel

Cynthia,

I just remembered one other thing.  A few years ago, one of the vet
tech at my vet's was new, and thought the all cats had to be fasted
for all ultrasounds.  I asked to speak to the vet, who appologized
explained she was new, and told me that no, no fasting was required.

--Kirsten

--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
> I actually just put frankie on rutin-he is getting 250mg 3xday-so
far no
> fuild build up again, but it has only been a week-increased his
lasis
> does to 12.5 3xday as well so hopefully this combo is helping.  How
is
> your kitty's renal function on 5mg of enacard a day? we are at
2.5mg and
> showed some inc creatin levels-possibly goingto switch him norvasc
> instead which is suppodesly better...

Unfortunately, I have not had my cat's renal function checked since
August '00. I know that sounds awful, but he goes ballistic when a
vet tries to get blood and I am not going to put him through that
stress (often goes into serious CHF the next day after the trauma). I
haven't noticed any problems, but I've heard that you don't see any
until it's too late. He was urinating more often (small puddles) the
other week, but has normalized.

> how long has it been since your kitty was diagnosed?  what is the
lowest
> lasix dose you are able to contriol fuild with-the 25mg 2xday?  how
long
> would he/she go between crisis on lowere doses and have you been
able to
> control for a good period of time now?  for both of you I hope
so....

He was diagnosed in Jan. '00 (went into CHF after having a dental
cleaning -- obviously, a huge mistake since his teeth weren't even
that bad).  He started out on 12.5mg/1 pill of lasix per day, which
controlled the fluids just fine. Then in the summer of 2000 things
got worse and he had to be drained. After that, he was on 37.5mg/3
pills a day, but had his ups and downs.  Eventually, I was able to
control the fluids for 6 months at the beginning of this year on 25mg
2x a day/ 4 pills total (he only stabilized after we moved to a new
house where he got more exercise -- I swear that helped him even
though it's is supposed to tax the heart). Anyway, he is now back on
that amount after I noticed the change in urination. Giving him more
doesn't seem to help much. I know he has some fluid buildup, but
seems stable.

> sounds like you have been going threw the same thing as us-so
diffacult.
>  to top things off frankie had a repeat ulthrasound today and
things
> have goten a lote worse...life is so unfair!  please fill me in on
the
> rest of your details as I would love to be able tpo better manage
> frankie too
>
I am probably not a good example since I do exactly what the doctors
tell me NOT to do. I change his medication according to how he seems
to be doing.  I've given him more than the recommended dose because,
quite frankly, I figure he is either going to die from heart failure
or kidney damage. I decided that I didn't want him to constantly be
stressed out by vet visits (and I'm telling you THIS cat hates the
vet; he's as gentle as can be normally, but when the vet lays a hand
on him... watch out). Plus, it cost at least $600 every time he had
to go in and stay the night. The only other alternative to me would
be to euthanize him now, which I don't think is appropriate,
particularly when I still see him rolling in the sunshine in the
backyard and looking thoroughly content.  When he stops eating and
enjoying life, then the vet who makes home visits will euthanize him
in the comfort of our own home. To me, the quality of his life is
much more important than quantity. That vet is actually extremely
surprised that my cat is still alive.


> thanx
> alexis
>
> mukki2@y... wrote:
>
> >I don't know if anyone has recommended rutin yet, but that is what
> >someone told me to use. That person switched their cat off lasix,
I
> >believe, and rutin controlled the fluid build-up. I tried it,
> >however, and my cat would not eat it in his wet food. The pills
are
> >also very large so it would be impossible to pill my cat with them.
> >
> >My vets have told me that eventually the lasix stops being
effective
> >at controlling the fluid build-up. However, I have done some
research
> >on the web and some info seemed to indicate that people can build
up
> >tolerance to one diuretic. Oftentimes, several are used. However,
I
> >have never discussed this with my vet nor has one ever recommended
a
> >different diuretic.
> >
> >For the record, my cat is currently on 2.5mg Enacard 2x a day (or
5mg
> >a day) and 25mg lasix 2x a day (or 50mg a day). Again, none of the
> >vets I talked to recommended I increase it to that level -- it was
a
> >risk I took on my own because the lower dosage was not effective
and
> >the only other choice was another trip to the emergency vets
> >(expensive and stressful for my cat).
> >
> >--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
> >
> >>thanx for responding so fast....no he only has damage on the
left
> >>
> >and I
> >
> >>did ask about injectgable and she said no but we have switched
vets
> >>
> >and
> >
> >>have another appt today and will ask him...
> >>how much dandelion did you give on top of lasix?
> >>
> >>VHess2000@c... wrote:
> >>
> >>>My cat had restrictive cardiomyopathy as well, which probably
has
> >>>
> >the worse
> >
> >>>prospects of any of the feline heart problems.   It is unclear,
> >>>
> >why cats get
> >
> >>>it -- some may have had a virus, or it might be an autoimmune
> >>>
> >problem. On
> >
> >>>average, cats diagnosed with RCM only live 3 - 9 months after
> >>>
> >diagnosis.
> >
> >>>Kira only lived 6 months, and suffered 2 blood clots. I suspect
> >>>
> >that your cat
> >
> >>>might have damage to both ventricles of the heart, as opposed to
> >>>
> >most readers
> >
> >>>on the list, whose HCM cats have left ventricle involvement
only.
> >>>
> >Hearts
> >
> >>>with damage to both ventricles have twice the problem with
> >>>
> >fluid.   You could
> >
> >>>try giving the cat, dandelion in addition to oral lasix, but I
> >>>
> >would strongly
> >
> >>>suggest getting your vet to give you injectable lasix, which can
> >>>
> >relieve
> >
> >>>fluid-build up in a matter of hours.  The injections are a
little
> >>>
> >more
> >
> >>>difficult to give, (given at the base of the rib cage), but
saves
> >>>
> >you and the
> >
> >>>cat stressful and expensive trips to the vet.  You'd probably
have
> >>>
> >to give it
> >
> >>>1x or 2x a week, in addition to the dandelion and oral lasix.
> >>>
> >Also, are you
> >
> >>>using a sodium-restricted food?
> >>>
> >>>Victoria
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>>
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wow, I can't beleive he is doing so good either-which form of
cardiomyopathy does he have?  did you say that you are back to 12.5
3xday or still on 25mg 2xday?  I totally agree w. you, as does my vet,
it is chf or kidney diease so might as well control the chf and hope it
keeps them around a little longer.  how was his last ultra sound?
curious to know because fankie was only diagnosed 6 weeks ago and in
those 6 weeks his ultrasound has shown a very rapid progressive of the
diease and they are giving us a avery poor prognosis, but he sounds just
like your kitty (p.s what is his name?) so happy and a good quality of
life inbetween epsiodes that we can't seem to see how it is ok to put
him to sleep yet, yetr like you say he can't go to the hospital once a
week.  I hope this new regimen of stuff and doses will keep his fluids
down and hopefully we can catch an episodes early and tret at home with
additional lasix.  you kitty gives me such hope, after his results from
yesterday I was not feeling very optimistic but maybe things will be
better then expected.  thank you so much for all your info! good luck to
you and your kitty, please keep me updated nad informed-as I will you
with frankie

alexis

mukki2@... wrote:

>--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
>
>>I actually just put frankie on rutin-he is getting 250mg 3xday-so
>>
>far no
>
>>fuild build up again, but it has only been a week-increased his
>>
>lasis
>
>>does to 12.5 3xday as well so hopefully this combo is helping.  How
>>
>is
>
>>your kitty's renal function on 5mg of enacard a day? we are at
>>
>2.5mg and
>
>>showed some inc creatin levels-possibly goingto switch him norvasc
>>instead which is suppodesly better...
>>
>
>Unfortunately, I have not had my cat's renal function checked since
>August '00. I know that sounds awful, but he goes ballistic when a
>vet tries to get blood and I am not going to put him through that
>stress (often goes into serious CHF the next day after the trauma). I
>haven't noticed any problems, but I've heard that you don't see any
>until it's too late. He was urinating more often (small puddles) the
>other week, but has normalized.
>
>>how long has it been since your kitty was diagnosed?  what is the
>>
>lowest
>
>>lasix dose you are able to contriol fuild with-the 25mg 2xday?  how
>>
>long
>
>>would he/she go between crisis on lowere doses and have you been
>>
>able to
>
>>control for a good period of time now?  for both of you I hope
>>
>so....
>
>He was diagnosed in Jan. '00 (went into CHF after having a dental
>cleaning -- obviously, a huge mistake since his teeth weren't even
>that bad).  He started out on 12.5mg/1 pill of lasix per day, which
>controlled the fluids just fine. Then in the summer of 2000 things
>got worse and he had to be drained. After that, he was on 37.5mg/3
>pills a day, but had his ups and downs.  Eventually, I was able to
>control the fluids for 6 months at the beginning of this year on 25mg
>2x a day/ 4 pills total (he only stabilized after we moved to a new
>house where he got more exercise -- I swear that helped him even
>though it's is supposed to tax the heart). Anyway, he is now back on
>that amount after I noticed the change in urination. Giving him more
>doesn't seem to help much. I know he has some fluid buildup, but
>seems stable.
>
>>sounds like you have been going threw the same thing as us-so
>>
>diffacult.
>
>> to top things off frankie had a repeat ulthrasound today and
>>
>things
>
>>have goten a lote worse...life is so unfair!  please fill me in on
>>
>the
>
>>rest of your details as I would love to be able tpo better manage
>>frankie too
>>
>I am probably not a good example since I do exactly what the doctors
>tell me NOT to do. I change his medication according to how he seems
>to be doing.  I've given him more than the recommended dose because,
>quite frankly, I figure he is either going to die from heart failure
>or kidney damage. I decided that I didn't want him to constantly be
>stressed out by vet visits (and I'm telling you THIS cat hates the
>vet; he's as gentle as can be normally, but when the vet lays a hand
>on him... watch out). Plus, it cost at least $600 every time he had
>to go in and stay the night. The only other alternative to me would
>be to euthanize him now, which I don't think is appropriate,
>particularly when I still see him rolling in the sunshine in the
>backyard and looking thoroughly content.  When he stops eating and
>enjoying life, then the vet who makes home visits will euthanize him
>in the comfort of our own home. To me, the quality of his life is
>much more important than quantity. That vet is actually extremely
>surprised that my cat is still alive.
>
>
>
>>thanx
>>alexis
>>
>>mukki2@y... wrote:
>>
>>>I don't know if anyone has recommended rutin yet, but that is what
>>>someone told me to use. That person switched their cat off lasix,
>>>
>I
>
>>>believe, and rutin controlled the fluid build-up. I tried it,
>>>however, and my cat would not eat it in his wet food. The pills
>>>
>are
>
>>>also very large so it would be impossible to pill my cat with them.
>>>
>>>My vets have told me that eventually the lasix stops being
>>>
>effective
>
>>>at controlling the fluid build-up. However, I have done some
>>>
>research
>
>>>on the web and some info seemed to indicate that people can build
>>>
>up
>
>>>tolerance to one diuretic. Oftentimes, several are used. However,
>>>
>I
>
>>>have never discussed this with my vet nor has one ever recommended
>>>
>a
>
>>>different diuretic.
>>>
>>>For the record, my cat is currently on 2.5mg Enacard 2x a day (or
>>>
>5mg
>
>>>a day) and 25mg lasix 2x a day (or 50mg a day). Again, none of the
>>>vets I talked to recommended I increase it to that level -- it was
>>>
>a
>
>>>risk I took on my own because the lower dosage was not effective
>>>
>and
>
>>>the only other choice was another trip to the emergency vets
>>>(expensive and stressful for my cat).
>>>
>>>--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
>>>
>>>>thanx for responding so fast....no he only has damage on the
>>>>
>left
>
>>>and I
>>>
>>>>did ask about injectgable and she said no but we have switched
>>>>
>vets
>
>>>and
>>>
>>>>have another appt today and will ask him...
>>>>how much dandelion did you give on top of lasix?
>>>>
>>>>VHess2000@c... wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>My cat had restrictive cardiomyopathy as well, which probably
>>>>>
>has
>
>>>the worse
>>>
>>>>>prospects of any of the feline heart problems.   It is unclear,
>>>>>
>>>why cats get
>>>
>>>>>it -- some may have had a virus, or it might be an autoimmune
>>>>>
>>>problem. On
>>>
>>>>>average, cats diagnosed with RCM only live 3 - 9 months after
>>>>>
>>>diagnosis.
>>>
>>>>>Kira only lived 6 months, and suffered 2 blood clots. I suspect
>>>>>
>>>that your cat
>>>
>>>>>might have damage to both ventricles of the heart, as opposed to
>>>>>
>>>most readers
>>>
>>>>>on the list, whose HCM cats have left ventricle involvement
>>>>>
>only.
>
>>>Hearts
>>>
>>>>>with damage to both ventricles have twice the problem with
>>>>>
>>>fluid.   You could
>>>
>>>>>try giving the cat, dandelion in addition to oral lasix, but I
>>>>>
>>>would strongly
>>>
>>>>>suggest getting your vet to give you injectable lasix, which can
>>>>>
>>>relieve
>>>
>>>>>fluid-build up in a matter of hours.  The injections are a
>>>>>
>little
>
>>>more
>>>
>>>>>difficult to give, (given at the base of the rib cage), but
>>>>>
>saves
>
>>>you and the
>>>
>>>>>cat stressful and expensive trips to the vet.  You'd probably
>>>>>
>have
>
>>>to give it
>>>
>>>>>1x or 2x a week, in addition to the dandelion and oral lasix.
>>>>>
>>>Also, are you
>>>
>>>>>using a sodium-restricted food?
>>>>>
>>>>>Victoria
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>>>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>>>
>>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>>>
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

His name is Smer. :)  Anyways, he is now on 12.5mg 2x a day. He has
mitral valve insufficieny/prolapse (very rare for a cat, apparently)
so that his mitral valve does not close all of the way. As a result,
the blood backflows from his left ventricle into his left atrium.
Blood pressure is elevated and the heart has to work harder to
properly oxygenate the lungs. His last and only ultrasound was in
Jan. 2000. When he went back into the vet in Aug. 2000, they offered
another ultrasound, but said that it wasn't really necessary, unless
we thought we really needed to see how far the disease had
progressed. As long as we understood that Smer's days were numbered,
an ultrasound, in their opinion, wouldn't help matters.

All I can say is that I wouldn't give up hope until you are sure your
cat's quality of life has detiorated so much that he should be
euthanized. I thought for sure that Smer would have to be euthanized
over a year ago. For a period in the summer of 2000, he went into
serious CHF (as in he wouldn't eat, had an hard time breathing, and
just sat still) a couple times within one week. I would have to pill
him and, miracle or miracles, he always pulled through. After I'd
pill him, I'd sit in the bedroom cyring and trying to leave him alone
so he could rest, and then, a few hours later, I'd go to the kitchen
and he'd come running in after me, feeling better.  In August, he
stopped having serious CHF episodes, but seemed to have a hard time
breathing, even though he still acted normally.  We took him into the
vet and his lungs were 70% filled with fluid. They drained him and he
came home, but still didn't look great.  When we moved in December,
however, he suddenly got a lot better and the fluids totally cleared
from his lungs. It was amazing. I maintained him that way on 25mg 2x
a day. Then, this past July, he started to feel worse again and the
fluid returned.  He went into serious CHF a few weeks ago again, but
I gave him an extra dose of lasix. He still has some heavy breathing
and I'm sure some fluid, but he eats and runs around quite a bit
(although he's not the old Smer he was).

My main concern is that he is not in a lot of pain. I'm sure he has
discomfort, but, like I said, still eats and lies out in the sun
(which isn't good for his heart, I'm sure, but he loves to so much).
Every week I wonder if this is his last, but he's still going.

I think he has been able to take so much medication because he's such
a healthy cat other than the heart disease. He never had any problems
whatsoever (despite a diet of Fancy Feast, which I'd like to get him
off of). His kidneys must have been quite healthy to take so much
Enacard and lasix....

Good luck with your kitty. It sounds like you are experiencing a lot
of the same issues and feelings I have. I was so upset in the
beginning, but now I've become accustomed to his daily problems and
the possibility of losing him. I really wish that when it's time for
him to go, he goes peacefully in his sleep. However, I doubt this
will be the case! Feel free to post/email me any questions.

Hilary

--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
> wow, I can't beleive he is doing so good either-which form of
> cardiomyopathy does he have?  did you say that you are back to 12.5
> 3xday or still on 25mg 2xday?  I totally agree w. you, as does my
vet,
> it is chf or kidney diease so might as well control the chf and
hope it
> keeps them around a little longer.  how was his last ultra sound?
> curious to know because fankie was only diagnosed 6 weeks ago and
in
> those 6 weeks his ultrasound has shown a very rapid progressive of
the
> diease and they are giving us a avery poor prognosis, but he sounds
just
> like your kitty (p.s what is his name?) so happy and a good quality
of
> life inbetween epsiodes that we can't seem to see how it is ok to
put
> him to sleep yet, yetr like you say he can't go to the hospital
once a
> week.  I hope this new regimen of stuff and doses will keep his
fluids
> down and hopefully we can catch an episodes early and tret at home
with
> additional lasix.  you kitty gives me such hope, after his results
from
> yesterday I was not feeling very optimistic but maybe things will
be
> better then expected.  thank you so much for all your info! good
luck to
> you and your kitty, please keep me updated nad informed-as I will
you
> with frankie
>
> alexis
>
> mukki2@y... wrote:
>
> >--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
> >
> >>I actually just put frankie on rutin-he is getting 250mg 3xday-so
> >>
> >far no
> >
> >>fuild build up again, but it has only been a week-increased his
> >>
> >lasis
> >
> >>does to 12.5 3xday as well so hopefully this combo is helping.
How
> >>
> >is
> >
> >>your kitty's renal function on 5mg of enacard a day? we are at
> >>
> >2.5mg and
> >
> >>showed some inc creatin levels-possibly goingto switch him
norvasc
> >>instead which is suppodesly better...
> >>
> >
> >Unfortunately, I have not had my cat's renal function checked
since
> >August '00. I know that sounds awful, but he goes ballistic when a
> >vet tries to get blood and I am not going to put him through that
> >stress (often goes into serious CHF the next day after the
trauma). I
> >haven't noticed any problems, but I've heard that you don't see
any
> >until it's too late. He was urinating more often (small puddles)
the
> >other week, but has normalized.
> >
> >>how long has it been since your kitty was diagnosed?  what is the
> >>
> >lowest
> >
> >>lasix dose you are able to contriol fuild with-the 25mg 2xday?
how
> >>
> >long
> >
> >>would he/she go between crisis on lowere doses and have you been
> >>
> >able to
> >
> >>control for a good period of time now?  for both of you I hope
> >>
> >so....
> >
> >He was diagnosed in Jan. '00 (went into CHF after having a dental
> >cleaning -- obviously, a huge mistake since his teeth weren't even
> >that bad).  He started out on 12.5mg/1 pill of lasix per day,
which
> >controlled the fluids just fine. Then in the summer of 2000 things
> >got worse and he had to be drained. After that, he was on 37.5mg/3
> >pills a day, but had his ups and downs.  Eventually, I was able to
> >control the fluids for 6 months at the beginning of this year on
25mg
> >2x a day/ 4 pills total (he only stabilized after we moved to a
new
> >house where he got more exercise -- I swear that helped him even
> >though it's is supposed to tax the heart). Anyway, he is now back
on
> >that amount after I noticed the change in urination. Giving him
more
> >doesn't seem to help much. I know he has some fluid buildup, but
> >seems stable.
> >
> >>sounds like you have been going threw the same thing as us-so
> >>
> >diffacult.
> >
> >> to top things off frankie had a repeat ulthrasound today and
> >>
> >things
> >
> >>have goten a lote worse...life is so unfair!  please fill me in
on
> >>
> >the
> >
> >>rest of your details as I would love to be able tpo better manage
> >>frankie too
> >>
> >I am probably not a good example since I do exactly what the
doctors
> >tell me NOT to do. I change his medication according to how he
seems
> >to be doing.  I've given him more than the recommended dose
because,
> >quite frankly, I figure he is either going to die from heart
failure
> >or kidney damage. I decided that I didn't want him to constantly
be
> >stressed out by vet visits (and I'm telling you THIS cat hates the
> >vet; he's as gentle as can be normally, but when the vet lays a
hand
> >on him... watch out). Plus, it cost at least $600 every time he
had
> >to go in and stay the night. The only other alternative to me
would
> >be to euthanize him now, which I don't think is appropriate,
> >particularly when I still see him rolling in the sunshine in the
> >backyard and looking thoroughly content.  When he stops eating and
> >enjoying life, then the vet who makes home visits will euthanize
him
> >in the comfort of our own home. To me, the quality of his life is
> >much more important than quantity. That vet is actually extremely
> >surprised that my cat is still alive.
> >
> >
> >
> >>thanx
> >>alexis
> >>
> >>mukki2@y... wrote:
> >>
> >>>I don't know if anyone has recommended rutin yet, but that is
what
> >>>someone told me to use. That person switched their cat off
lasix,
> >>>
> >I
> >
> >>>believe, and rutin controlled the fluid build-up. I tried it,
> >>>however, and my cat would not eat it in his wet food. The pills
> >>>
> >are
> >
> >>>also very large so it would be impossible to pill my cat with
them.
> >>>
> >>>My vets have told me that eventually the lasix stops being
> >>>
> >effective
> >
> >>>at controlling the fluid build-up. However, I have done some
> >>>
> >research
> >
> >>>on the web and some info seemed to indicate that people can
build
> >>>
> >up
> >
> >>>tolerance to one diuretic. Oftentimes, several are used.
However,
> >>>
> >I
> >
> >>>have never discussed this with my vet nor has one ever
recommended
> >>>
> >a
> >
> >>>different diuretic.
> >>>
> >>>For the record, my cat is currently on 2.5mg Enacard 2x a day
(or
> >>>
> >5mg
> >
> >>>a day) and 25mg lasix 2x a day (or 50mg a day). Again, none of
the
> >>>vets I talked to recommended I increase it to that level -- it
was
> >>>
> >a
> >
> >>>risk I took on my own because the lower dosage was not effective
> >>>
> >and
> >
> >>>the only other choice was another trip to the emergency vets
> >>>(expensive and stressful for my cat).
> >>>
> >>>--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>thanx for responding so fast....no he only has damage on the
> >>>>
> >left
> >
> >>>and I
> >>>
> >>>>did ask about injectgable and she said no but we have switched
> >>>>
> >vets
> >
> >>>and
> >>>
> >>>>have another appt today and will ask him...
> >>>>how much dandelion did you give on top of lasix?
> >>>>
> >>>>VHess2000@c... wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>My cat had restrictive cardiomyopathy as well, which probably
> >>>>>
> >has
> >
> >>>the worse
> >>>
> >>>>>prospects of any of the feline heart problems.   It is
unclear,
> >>>>>
> >>>why cats get
> >>>
> >>>>>it -- some may have had a virus, or it might be an autoimmune
> >>>>>
> >>>problem. On
> >>>
> >>>>>average, cats diagnosed with RCM only live 3 - 9 months after
> >>>>>
> >>>diagnosis.
> >>>
> >>>>>Kira only lived 6 months, and suffered 2 blood clots. I
suspect
> >>>>>
> >>>that your cat
> >>>
> >>>>>might have damage to both ventricles of the heart, as opposed
to
> >>>>>
> >>>most readers
> >>>
> >>>>>on the list, whose HCM cats have left ventricle involvement
> >>>>>
> >only.
> >
> >>>Hearts
> >>>
> >>>>>with damage to both ventricles have twice the problem with
> >>>>>
> >>>fluid.   You could
> >>>
> >>>>>try giving the cat, dandelion in addition to oral lasix, but I
> >>>>>
> >>>would strongly
> >>>
> >>>>>suggest getting your vet to give you injectable lasix, which
can
> >>>>>
> >>>relieve
> >>>
> >>>>>fluid-build up in a matter of hours.  The injections are a
> >>>>>
> >little
> >
> >>>more
> >>>
> >>>>>difficult to give, (given at the base of the rib cage), but
> >>>>>
> >saves
> >
> >>>you and the
> >>>
> >>>>>cat stressful and expensive trips to the vet.  You'd probably
> >>>>>
> >have
> >
> >>>to give it
> >>>
> >>>>>1x or 2x a week, in addition to the dandelion and oral lasix.
> >>>>>
> >>>Also, are you
> >>>
> >>>>>using a sodium-restricted food?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Victoria
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>>>>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>>>>
> >>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >>>
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have been reading your posts and while Dom does not get any of the
drugs etc. that your cats are taking, I just wanted to add that when
it comes to the heart--you just can't predict what is ever going to
happen! Most on this board rememeber my problems with Dom and that I
totally stopped all heart meds, cardiologist visits, blood draws,
ultrasounds etc. last March. Dom does have HCM and had 4 or 5
ultrasounds before March. He was diagnosed December 1999. I was told
that remeoving him from the drugs etc. would probably shorten his
life but we decided to go with a shorter quality of life for him
rather than quantity. We do still see the regular vet frequently as
Dom has allergies and also asthma. We are in the midst of another hot
spot break out and are trying to deal with it without the steroids as
they cause him to have labored breathing now. We aren't sure if it is
a reaction to the steroid or an asthma attack but we are trying to
avoid it if possible. I am using a topical and the jury is still out
on whether it will work or if we will end up with the Depo injection.

My whole point in this is to say that these guys can be amazing! Dom
is still doing quite well considering his prognosis almost 2 years
ago. He still runs around the house, loves to eat and is our baby! He
shows no signs of having a cardiac problem and our vet is amazed
because of his having asthma also. He says Dom is on his second nine
lives and we will continue to enjoy our time with him until he shows
signs of being in some kind of distress. He too hates vets and blood
draws are an impossibility as they have learned. It seems that he is
having less problems since we have stopped stressing him. We are very
lucky to have a vet who understands where we are coming from and he
agrees that this is certainly the best for Dom. He does make house
calls for Dom if I need him. And he is always willing to talk on the
phone as he lets me call the shots on what we want to do. He gives me
the options and I make my choice and of course, I always ask his
opinion too. This all makes it alot easier for Dom and me. I know we
are living on so called borrowed time but Dom has had a great 7
months so I will never complain. When we were forcing the drugs, vet
trips, blood draws etc. on him it just wasn't working. We almost lost
him twice from drug toxicities etc. before we called it off. I am not
suggesting that any of you stop meds as each cat is different and
your cat may NEED the meds to live. We have found that Dom just
wasn't 1 of them.  Dom still has never built up fluid that I am aware
of. He was a 3 when diagnosed and had left side wall thickening,
enlargement of the heart and an aortic valve leak. He is 7 years old
and weighs 16 pounds. He hasn't had an ultrasound for 7 months and
won't be having any in the future. As long as he has a quality of
life we will keep him with us but we also will PTS when his condition
deteriorates to the point where he is in pain or struggling with
life. It will be my last gift to him and like you said, we all hope
that we just find them 1 day but I am not expecting it to go that
smoothly! LOL Dom just doesn't do anything easy!!

Good luck to you and your cats!
Jeanne, Dom, Bono & Louie



--- In feline-heart@y..., mukki2@y... wrote:
> His name is Smer. :)  Anyways, he is now on 12.5mg 2x a day. He has
> mitral valve insufficieny/prolapse (very rare for a cat,
apparently)
> so that his mitral valve does not close all of the way. As a
result,
> the blood backflows from his left ventricle into his left atrium.
> Blood pressure is elevated and the heart has to work harder to
> properly oxygenate the lungs. His last and only ultrasound was in
> Jan. 2000. When he went back into the vet in Aug. 2000, they
offered
> another ultrasound, but said that it wasn't really necessary,
unless
> we thought we really needed to see how far the disease had
> progressed. As long as we understood that Smer's days were
numbered,
> an ultrasound, in their opinion, wouldn't help matters.
>
> All I can say is that I wouldn't give up hope until you are sure
your
> cat's quality of life has detiorated so much that he should be
> euthanized. I thought for sure that Smer would have to be
euthanized
> over a year ago. For a period in the summer of 2000, he went into
> serious CHF (as in he wouldn't eat, had an hard time breathing, and
> just sat still) a couple times within one week. I would have to
pill
> him and, miracle or miracles, he always pulled through. After I'd
> pill him, I'd sit in the bedroom cyring and trying to leave him
alone
> so he could rest, and then, a few hours later, I'd go to the
kitchen
> and he'd come running in after me, feeling better.  In August, he
> stopped having serious CHF episodes, but seemed to have a hard time
> breathing, even though he still acted normally.  We took him into
the
> vet and his lungs were 70% filled with fluid. They drained him and
he
> came home, but still didn't look great.  When we moved in December,
> however, he suddenly got a lot better and the fluids totally
cleared
> from his lungs. It was amazing. I maintained him that way on 25mg
2x
> a day. Then, this past July, he started to feel worse again and the
> fluid returned.  He went into serious CHF a few weeks ago again,
but
> I gave him an extra dose of lasix. He still has some heavy
breathing
> and I'm sure some fluid, but he eats and runs around quite a bit
> (although he's not the old Smer he was).
>
> My main concern is that he is not in a lot of pain. I'm sure he has
> discomfort, but, like I said, still eats and lies out in the sun
> (which isn't good for his heart, I'm sure, but he loves to so
much).
> Every week I wonder if this is his last, but he's still going.
>
> I think he has been able to take so much medication because he's
such
> a healthy cat other than the heart disease. He never had any
problems
> whatsoever (despite a diet of Fancy Feast, which I'd like to get
him
> off of). His kidneys must have been quite healthy to take so much
> Enacard and lasix....
>
> Good luck with your kitty. It sounds like you are experiencing a
lot
> of the same issues and feelings I have. I was so upset in the
> beginning, but now I've become accustomed to his daily problems and
> the possibility of losing him. I really wish that when it's time
for
> him to go, he goes peacefully in his sleep. However, I doubt this
> will be the case! Feel free to post/email me any questions.
>
> Hilary
>
> --- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
> > wow, I can't beleive he is doing so good either-which form of
> > cardiomyopathy does he have?  did you say that you are back to
12.5
> > 3xday or still on 25mg 2xday?  I totally agree w. you, as does my
> vet,
> > it is chf or kidney diease so might as well control the chf and
> hope it
> > keeps them around a little longer.  how was his last ultra sound?
> > curious to know because fankie was only diagnosed 6 weeks ago and
> in
> > those 6 weeks his ultrasound has shown a very rapid progressive
of
> the
> > diease and they are giving us a avery poor prognosis, but he
sounds
> just
> > like your kitty (p.s what is his name?) so happy and a good
quality
> of
> > life inbetween epsiodes that we can't seem to see how it is ok to
> put
> > him to sleep yet, yetr like you say he can't go to the hospital
> once a
> > week.  I hope this new regimen of stuff and doses will keep his
> fluids
> > down and hopefully we can catch an episodes early and tret at
home
> with
> > additional lasix.  you kitty gives me such hope, after his
results
> from
> > yesterday I was not feeling very optimistic but maybe things will
> be
> > better then expected.  thank you so much for all your info! good
> luck to
> > you and your kitty, please keep me updated nad informed-as I will
> you
> > with frankie
> >
> > alexis
> >
> > mukki2@y... wrote:
> >
> > >--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
> > >
> > >>I actually just put frankie on rutin-he is getting 250mg 3xday-
so
> > >>
> > >far no
> > >
> > >>fuild build up again, but it has only been a week-increased his
> > >>
> > >lasis
> > >
> > >>does to 12.5 3xday as well so hopefully this combo is helping.
> How
> > >>
> > >is
> > >
> > >>your kitty's renal function on 5mg of enacard a day? we are at
> > >>
> > >2.5mg and
> > >
> > >>showed some inc creatin levels-possibly goingto switch him
> norvasc
> > >>instead which is suppodesly better...
> > >>
> > >
> > >Unfortunately, I have not had my cat's renal function checked
> since
> > >August '00. I know that sounds awful, but he goes ballistic when
a
> > >vet tries to get blood and I am not going to put him through
that
> > >stress (often goes into serious CHF the next day after the
> trauma). I
> > >haven't noticed any problems, but I've heard that you don't see
> any
> > >until it's too late. He was urinating more often (small puddles)
> the
> > >other week, but has normalized.
> > >
> > >>how long has it been since your kitty was diagnosed?  what is
the
> > >>
> > >lowest
> > >
> > >>lasix dose you are able to contriol fuild with-the 25mg 2xday?
> how
> > >>
> > >long
> > >
> > >>would he/she go between crisis on lowere doses and have you
been
> > >>
> > >able to
> > >
> > >>control for a good period of time now?  for both of you I hope
> > >>
> > >so....
> > >
> > >He was diagnosed in Jan. '00 (went into CHF after having a
dental
> > >cleaning -- obviously, a huge mistake since his teeth weren't
even
> > >that bad).  He started out on 12.5mg/1 pill of lasix per day,
> which
> > >controlled the fluids just fine. Then in the summer of 2000
things
> > >got worse and he had to be drained. After that, he was on
37.5mg/3
> > >pills a day, but had his ups and downs.  Eventually, I was able
to
> > >control the fluids for 6 months at the beginning of this year on
> 25mg
> > >2x a day/ 4 pills total (he only stabilized after we moved to a
> new
> > >house where he got more exercise -- I swear that helped him even
> > >though it's is supposed to tax the heart). Anyway, he is now
back
> on
> > >that amount after I noticed the change in urination. Giving him
> more
> > >doesn't seem to help much. I know he has some fluid buildup, but
> > >seems stable.
> > >
> > >>sounds like you have been going threw the same thing as us-so
> > >>
> > >diffacult.
> > >
> > >> to top things off frankie had a repeat ulthrasound today and
> > >>
> > >things
> > >
> > >>have goten a lote worse...life is so unfair!  please fill me in
> on
> > >>
> > >the
> > >
> > >>rest of your details as I would love to be able tpo better
manage
> > >>frankie too
> > >>
> > >I am probably not a good example since I do exactly what the
> doctors
> > >tell me NOT to do. I change his medication according to how he
> seems
> > >to be doing.  I've given him more than the recommended dose
> because,
> > >quite frankly, I figure he is either going to die from heart
> failure
> > >or kidney damage. I decided that I didn't want him to constantly
> be
> > >stressed out by vet visits (and I'm telling you THIS cat hates
the
> > >vet; he's as gentle as can be normally, but when the vet lays a
> hand
> > >on him... watch out). Plus, it cost at least $600 every time he
> had
> > >to go in and stay the night. The only other alternative to me
> would
> > >be to euthanize him now, which I don't think is appropriate,
> > >particularly when I still see him rolling in the sunshine in the
> > >backyard and looking thoroughly content.  When he stops eating
and
> > >enjoying life, then the vet who makes home visits will euthanize
> him
> > >in the comfort of our own home. To me, the quality of his life
is
> > >much more important than quantity. That vet is actually
extremely
> > >surprised that my cat is still alive.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>thanx
> > >>alexis
> > >>
> > >>mukki2@y... wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>I don't know if anyone has recommended rutin yet, but that is
> what
> > >>>someone told me to use. That person switched their cat off
> lasix,
> > >>>
> > >I
> > >
> > >>>believe, and rutin controlled the fluid build-up. I tried it,
> > >>>however, and my cat would not eat it in his wet food. The
pills
> > >>>
> > >are
> > >
> > >>>also very large so it would be impossible to pill my cat with
> them.
> > >>>
> > >>>My vets have told me that eventually the lasix stops being
> > >>>
> > >effective
> > >
> > >>>at controlling the fluid build-up. However, I have done some
> > >>>
> > >research
> > >
> > >>>on the web and some info seemed to indicate that people can
> build
> > >>>
> > >up
> > >
> > >>>tolerance to one diuretic. Oftentimes, several are used.
> However,
> > >>>
> > >I
> > >
> > >>>have never discussed this with my vet nor has one ever
> recommended
> > >>>
> > >a
> > >
> > >>>different diuretic.
> > >>>
> > >>>For the record, my cat is currently on 2.5mg Enacard 2x a day
> (or
> > >>>
> > >5mg
> > >
> > >>>a day) and 25mg lasix 2x a day (or 50mg a day). Again, none of
> the
> > >>>vets I talked to recommended I increase it to that level -- it
> was
> > >>>
> > >a
> > >
> > >>>risk I took on my own because the lower dosage was not
effective
> > >>>
> > >and
> > >
> > >>>the only other choice was another trip to the emergency vets
> > >>>(expensive and stressful for my cat).
> > >>>
> > >>>--- In feline-heart@y..., Alexis Snyder <cozycat@r...> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>thanx for responding so fast....no he only has damage on the
> > >>>>
> > >left
> > >
> > >>>and I
> > >>>
> > >>>>did ask about injectgable and she said no but we have
switched
> > >>>>
> > >vets
> > >
> > >>>and
> > >>>
> > >>>>have another appt today and will ask him...
> > >>>>how much dandelion did you give on top of lasix?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>VHess2000@c... wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>My cat had restrictive cardiomyopathy as well, which
probably
> > >>>>>
> > >has
> > >
> > >>>the worse
> > >>>
> > >>>>>prospects of any of the feline heart problems.   It is
> unclear,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>why cats get
> > >>>
> > >>>>>it -- some may have had a virus, or it might be an
autoimmune
> > >>>>>
> > >>>problem. On
> > >>>
> > >>>>>average, cats diagnosed with RCM only live 3 - 9 months
after
> > >>>>>
> > >>>diagnosis.
> > >>>
> > >>>>>Kira only lived 6 months, and suffered 2 blood clots. I
> suspect
> > >>>>>
> > >>>that your cat
> > >>>
> > >>>>>might have damage to both ventricles of the heart, as
opposed
> to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>most readers
> > >>>
> > >>>>>on the list, whose HCM cats have left ventricle involvement
> > >>>>>
> > >only.
> > >
> > >>>Hearts
> > >>>
> > >>>>>with damage to both ventricles have twice the problem with
> > >>>>>
> > >>>fluid.   You could
> > >>>
> > >>>>>try giving the cat, dandelion in addition to oral lasix, but
I
> > >>>>>
> > >>>would strongly
> > >>>
> > >>>>>suggest getting your vet to give you injectable lasix, which
> can
> > >>>>>
> > >>>relieve
> > >>>
> > >>>>>fluid-build up in a matter of hours.  The injections are a
> > >>>>>
> > >little
> > >
> > >>>more
> > >>>
> > >>>>>difficult to give, (given at the base of the rib cage), but
> > >>>>>
> > >saves
> > >
> > >>>you and the
> > >>>
> > >>>>>cat stressful and expensive trips to the vet.  You'd
probably
> > >>>>>
> > >have
> > >
> > >>>to give it
> > >>>
> > >>>>>1x or 2x a week, in addition to the dandelion and oral
lasix.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>Also, are you
> > >>>
> > >>>>>using a sodium-restricted food?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Victoria
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >>>>>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > >>>>>
> > >>>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >>>feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > >>>
> > >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > >feline-heart-unsubscribe@onelist.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I need some advice before I speak to the vet tomorrow. Munchie, who
is hyper-T and mild CRF, is now, on the last two vet visits,
exhibiting a heart murmur and rapid heart rate. Her BP has averaged
between 172 and 179. The vet does not believe in meds for BP until it
reaches 200. And he also does not think that cats do well on heart
meds. I left the vet a message telling him that I wanted to put
Munchie on medication as a precautionary measure. The vet called back
this evening, leaving a message for me to let his office know which
pharmacy I use. He sounded rather annoyed. We have not discussed
which medication would be best. Now, I am wondering if it is a
mistake to put her on meds without an echocardiogram or an ultrasound
first. Is it dangerous or is it OK to lower the BP and then have the
tests run? Any advice would be appreciated.

Anne V.
Warner Robins, GA

My first recommendation, would be to get a new vet.  Has Munchie's
Hyperthyroidism been treated, because that's whats most likely causing the
heart damage, especially in light of his rapid heart beat? I'd definitely get
an ultrasound so you can be sure what type and the degree of heart disease
you are treating.   Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand why he thinks cats
don't do well on heart meds, unless he's strictly a holistic vet.  It's true
that some don't and you have to spend some time tinkering with the type and
dosage, but I can tell you that my roommate has cardiomyopathy as well, which
also requires constant fine tuning and no one suggests that she go off all
meds.  You need a definitive diagnosis so that you can make do some research
and then make an informed decision, regarding meds and supplements.  Find
someone who'll take the time to talk to you.  (P.S.  Make sure your cat takes
50 mg of CoQ10 daily, in an oil base, which will help relieve some strain on
the heart, regardless of the type of cardiomyopathy he has.  Once he's on it,
don't stop it, because sudden withdrawal can lead to heart failure).

Victoria

Victoria

Victoria,

Yes, Munchie is on Tapazole and her T4 last week was at 2.2. I would like to
keep it a little higher to help her kidneys, but a minor adjustment in the
Tapazole cause major changes in the T4. I was thinking of starting her on
Norvasc and schedule an ultrasound. Is this  bad idea? Are we talking about
three different things - high BP (179), murmur, and rapid heart rate - or is
this all one that can be treated with one medication?

Anne V
Warner Robins, GA
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: VHess2000@...
   To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 12:52 PM
   Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Hypertensive medication


   My first recommendation, would be to get a new vet.  Has Munchie's
   Hyperthyroidism been treated, because that's whats most likely causing the
   heart damage, especially in light of his rapid heart beat? I'd definitely get
   an ultrasound so you can be sure what type and the degree of heart disease
   you are treating.   Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand why he thinks cats
   don't do well on heart meds, unless he's strictly a holistic vet.  It's true
   that some don't and you have to spend some time tinkering with the type and
   dosage, but I can tell you that my roommate has cardiomyopathy as well, which
   also requires constant fine tuning and no one suggests that she go off all
   meds.  You need a definitive diagnosis so that you can make do some research
   and then make an informed decision, regarding meds and supplements.  Find
   someone who'll take the time to talk to you.  (P.S.  Make sure your cat takes
   50 mg of CoQ10 daily, in an oil base, which will help relieve some strain on
   the heart, regardless of the type of cardiomyopathy he has.  Once he's on it,
   don't stop it, because sudden withdrawal can lead to heart failure).

   Victoria

   Victoria

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

vandalin1@... wrote:

> ..... The vet called back
> this evening, leaving a message for me to let his office know which
> pharmacy I use. He sounded rather annoyed. We have not discussed
> which medication would be best. Now, I am wondering if it is a
> mistake to put her on meds without an echocardiogram or an ultrasound
> first. Is it dangerous or is it OK to lower the BP and then have the
> tests run? Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> Anne V.
> Warner Robins, GA

> I see lots of high bp kitties get medication without having the ultrasound
> done.  I believe the ultrasound is necessary when there is a hint of any
> other possible condition in addition to the high bp that might complicate
> matters.

Anyes and the girls

Anyes,

In addition to the high BP, Munchie also has a newly discovered heart murmur and
a rapid heart rate. Does this change your opinion?

Anne V
Warner Robins, GA
   From: Anyes Moscrip
   Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 3:28 PM




   vandalin1@... wrote:

   > ..... The vet called back
   > this evening, leaving a message for me to let his office know which
   > pharmacy I use. He sounded rather annoyed. We have not discussed
   > which medication would be best. Now, I am wondering if it is a
   > mistake to put her on meds without an echocardiogram or an ultrasound
   > first. Is it dangerous or is it OK to lower the BP and then have the
   > tests run? Any advice would be appreciated.
   >
   > Anne V.
   > Warner Robins, GA

   > I see lots of high bp kitties get medication without having the ultrasound
   > done.  I believe the ultrasound is necessary when there is a hint of any
   > other possible condition in addition to the high bp that might complicate
   > matters.

   Anyes and the girls



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob&Anne wrote:

> Anyes,
>
> In addition to the high BP, Munchie also has a newly discovered heart murmur
and a rapid heart rate. Does this change your opinion?
>
> Anne V
> Warner Robins, GA

Yes, I think I would do the ultrasound to see what exactly is going on.  Various
heart medications do different things.
If you cannot afford the ultrasound at this time, I would still start on bp
medications as high bp will damage the kidneys further, and
monitor the bp to adjust the dose.

Anyes and the girls

Thank you for your opinion, Anyes. I have not checked on the price for an
ultrasound. Is it a very expensive procedure? And does anyone know what BP we
should be aiming for? I know 180 is high, but what is a good range and what is
too low?

Anne V
Warner Robins, GA

   From: Anyes Moscrip
   Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 3:47 PM

   Bob&Anne wrote:

   > Anyes,
   >
   > In addition to the high BP, Munchie also has a newly discovered heart murmur
and a rapid heart rate. Does this change your opinion?
   >
   > Anne V
   > Warner Robins, GA

   Yes, I think I would do the ultrasound to see what exactly is going on. 
Various heart medications do different things.
   If you cannot afford the ultrasound at this time, I would still start on bp
medications as high bp will damage the kidneys further, and
   monitor the bp to adjust the dose.

   Anyes and the girls



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Anne,

An echocardiogram (ultrasound) costs from $200 to $300 here in expensive DC.
I agree that heart meds shouldn't be given until the echo.

A BP of 180 is pretty high, but it might be lower at home. My cardiologist
said it often goes up 40 points at the vet's office. I believe the goal is
160 to 170 at the vet's office. My two cats were put on Norvasc with BPs of
190.

Laura

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob&Anne <vandalin1@...>
To: feline-heart@yahoogroups.com <feline-heart@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Saturday, October 06, 2001 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [feline-heart] Hypertensive medication


>Thank you for your opinion, Anyes. I have not checked on the price for an
ultrasound. Is it a very expensive procedure? And does anyone know what BP
we should be aiming for? I know 180 is high, but what is a good range and
what is too low?
>
>Anne V
>Warner Robins, GA
>
>  From: Anyes Moscrip
>  Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 3:47 PM
>
>  Bob&Anne wrote:
>
>  > Anyes,
>  >
>  > In addition to the high BP, Munchie also has a newly discovered heart
murmur and a rapid heart rate. Does this change your opinion?
>  >
>  > Anne V
>  > Warner Robins, GA
>
>  Yes, I think I would do the ultrasound to see what exactly is going on.
Various heart medications do different things.
>  If you cannot afford the ultrasound at this time, I would still start on
bp medications as high bp will damage the kidneys further, and
>  monitor the bp to adjust the dose.
>
>  Anyes and the girls
>
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Laura,

Thanks for the info. It won't hurt to hold off for a few days on the BP meds and
get the echo done first. There is a new vet about 45 minutes drive who has the
equipment and she said I could call her a discuss what needs to be done. I don't
understand why she has the echo and ultrasound equipment, but not a BP monitor.
At least, when I e-mailed her before she set up practice she was not planning on
immediately getting one. Maybe she has changed her mind. That will be one of my
questions next week. My other vet still has not called me back after I left a
message this morning. I know he is ticked off with my "uppity" ideas!!!

Anne V
Warner Robins, GA
   From: Laura Penny
   Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 4:31 PM

   An echocardiogram (ultrasound) costs from $200 to $300 here in expensive DC.
   I agree that heart meds shouldn't be given until the echo.

   A BP of 180 is pretty high, but it might be lower at home. My cardiologist
   said it often goes up 40 points at the vet's office. I believe the goal is
   160 to 170 at the vet's office. My two cats were put on Norvasc with BPs of
   190.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The murmur is probably symptomatic of heart damage caused by high thyroid.
Even if the thyroid is under control, your cat may have sustained damage
prior to treatment.  The fast heartrate can also mean that the thyroid is
still in a hyper state, or that because of heart damage, the heart is having
to beat faster to maintain adequate circulation.  The purpose of heart
medication is to stop those automatic functions that the body does to
compensate for decreased heart function (faster rate, blood pressure), so as
to lessen the strain on the heart.

Victoria

As Munchie also has a murmur in addition to elevated BP, an echo is the best
way to go.

Victoria