--- In ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com, "sukiedaviscrandall" <sukie@...> wrote:

Thanks Sukie!  I passed it on.  Hopefully she'll have it to take to the new vet
:)
>
> http://ferrethealth.org/archive/FHL7070
>
> http://ferrethealth.org/archive/YPG922
>
> http://ferrethealth.org/archive/FHL5607
>

>  J Acoust Soc Am. 2009 Sep;126(3):1321-35.
> Pitch discrimination by ferrets for simple and complex sounds.
> Walker KM, Schnupp JW, Hart-Schnupp SM, King AJ, Bizley JK.
> Department of Physiology, Anatomy and Genetics, Sherrington
> Building, Parks Road, University of Oxford, Oxfordshire, United
> Kingdom.
>
> Although many studies have examined the performance of animals in
> detecting a frequency change in a sequence of tones, few have
> measured animals' discrimination of the fundamental frequency (F0)
> of complex, naturalistic stimuli. Additionally, it is not yet clear
> if animals perceive the pitch of complex sounds along a continuous,
> low-to-high scale. Here, four ferrets (Mustela putorius) were
> trained on a two-alternative forced choice task to discriminate
> sounds that were higher or lower in F0 than a reference sound using
> pure tones and artificial vowels as stimuli. Average Weber fractions
> for ferrets on this task varied from approximately 20% to 80% across
> references (200-1200 Hz), and these fractions were similar for pure
> tones and vowels. These thresholds are approximately ten times
> higher than those typically reported for other mammals on frequency
> change detection tasks that use go/no-go designs. Naive human
> listeners outperformed ferrets on the present task, but they showed
> similar effects of stimulus type and reference F0. These results
> suggest that while non-human animals can be trained to label complex
> sounds as high or low in pitch, this task may be much more difficult
> for animals than simply detecting a frequency change.
>
> PMID: 19739746
>

-----

No abstract so I don't know if they mean allergies to ferrets or
allergies OF ferrets:

Ann Allergy Asthma Immunol. 2009 Aug;103(2):177-8.
Identification of a novel 17-kDa protein as a ferret allergen.
González de Olano D, Pastor Vargas C, Cases Ortega B, Perez-Gordo M,
Moral Darde V, Vivanco F, Bartolomé B.
PMID: 19739435


Sukie (not a vet)

Recommended ferret health links:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html
http://www.miamiferret.org/
http://www.ferrethealth.msu.edu/
http://www.ferretcongress.org/
http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml
http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html
all ferret topics:
http://listserv.ferretmailinglist.org/archives/ferret-search.html

My jojo is doing the same thing..he had diarrhea for 2 months now.
he been to the vets several times now.The vet can't seem to figure it out
either. He put him on differant meds..nothing.
I even try pumpkin & fortiflora . still nothing
I feed him watery duck soup to keep his strength up and provide him with fluids
he is losing throught his diarrhea.
At times the diarrhea is really watery and has a bad oder and at times it is
like catup..but not the color of catup..lol The diarrhea is brown and don't got
an oder.
I can tell now he lost a lot of weight.
The poor guy still trys to  play too.
Just don't know how long he can keep this up.I just don't think he going to be
around much longer.
So if you can figure it out for your  ferret . please please let me too.
Laurie

If there was giardia in the stool it means he still has it.  It is highly
contagious.  Have you and your family been tested for it because it can be
transmitted to humans?  Someone (ferret or human) may be a silent carrier and
re-infecting him.

Our vet clinic uses gloves and changes clothing after handling an animal with
giardia.

I would suggest isolating him from the others and handling him under the
assumption he is still infectious, that is using the above mentioned strategy.

Once you have him quarantined it should be easier to eradicate it.  Another
round of medications would also be in order under veterinary guidance.

Tressie

Diarrhea that long needs further evaluations. 
If stool testing didn't find the issue, then get
routine labs done, and then consider a biopsy
to rule out IBD and /or lymphoma.  Then the
  treatment can be targeted to the issue. 

Unfortunately, there just isn't much else.  I recall
a new panel out there that tests blood and stool
and looks for indicators on both for IBD.  I am
not sure if any ferret savy vets on this list have
used it with what reliability it has, but since most
people don't want to go the surgical route, it may
be the only other choice.

If you decide surgery is not an option, then you
may want to have your vet treat as IBD and see how
it goes.

All I do know, and  you know, what you have done
isn't working and now you have to move to the next
step of testing and evaluations.  You can also ask if
your vet isn't seeing a lot of ferrets, who he would
recommend.  Also, if you have any ferret rescues in
the area, can ask them who they use and or
recommend as well.

Good luck,
Patty Kaczorowski


----- Original Message -----


My jojo is doing the same thing..he had diarrhea for 2 months now.
he been to the vets several times now.The vet can't seem to figure it out
either. He put him on differant meds..nothing.
I even try pumpkin & fortiflora . still nothing
I feed him watery duck soup to keep his strength up and provide him with fluids
he is losing throught his diarrhea.
At times the diarrhea is really watery and has a bad oder and at times it is
like catup..but not the color of catup..lol The diarrhea is brown and don't got
an oder.
I can tell now he lost a lot of weight.
The poor guy still trys to play too.
Just don't know how long he can keep this up.I just don't think he going to be
around much longer.
So if you can figure it out for your ferret . please please let me too.
Laurie

My boy Gus had diarrhea for a couple of months, I also tried everything under
the sun.  Nothing worked.  The vet wanted to do an ultrasound, which gave him
alot of info as to what was possibly wrong w/ Gus.  You may want to talk to your
vet about an ultrasound, or discuss the possibility of intestinal lymphoma...
and possibly putting him on at least Pred (which would help if its IBD or
lymphoma).  I wouldnt let the diarrhea go that much longer, as Gus' intestines
were terribly inflamed from it all.
Andrea

--- On Sun, 9/13/09, smith_from_nw_pa <lssmith@...> wrote:


Date: Sunday, September 13, 2009, 3:03 PM

My jojo is doing the same thing..he had diarrhea for 2 months now.
he been to the vets several times now.The vet can't seem to figure it out
either. He put him on differant meds..nothing.
I even try pumpkin & fortiflora . still nothing

Another thing that might help for diagnosis would be an ultrasound, to see if
the intestinal walls are thickened or swollen.  That could indicate that you are
most likely dealing with IBD, and then you'd know prednisone would be a good
next step to reduce intestinal inflammation.

You could also look into diet and try a gradual switch to a non-chicken based
food.  I've had very good results controlling my ferret's IBD with a combination
of prednisone and feeding her Totally Ferret's Turkey Venison Lamb kibble.  (She
also gets a daily snack of Carnivore Care, which does contain chicken but
doesn't seem to irritate her digestive system)

Regina

I get my pred at a compounding pharmacy for $40.00 (15ml 5mg/1ml). It has to be
refrigerated and is only good for one month.

A friend just told me he gets his pred at CVS for $8.00 (15ml 5mg/1ml) and it
does not need to be refrigerated and has a long shelf life.

So my question is, is there a difference between these two preds? My vet
suggested a compounding pharmacy because she said pred at some retail drugstores
have additives and even sugar. But I'm the only person I know that uses a
compounding pharmacy.

I want what's best for my guys, but if the cheaper pred works just as well than
I'd rather save the money to put towards other things.

Thanks!
Lisa

--- In ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com, Ella R <autumn.whisperstome@...> wrote:

If the diarrhea is still persitant beyond meds I would consider some type of
cancer (intestinal or lymphoma). I always hate to bring this up but any I've had
with persistant diarrhea (after rounds and rounds of meds) has had some type of
cancer.  If it was bacterial or otherwise the meds more than likely would have
taken care of it.
IBD (a lot of times could also be early stages of lymphoma)also from my
experience.  We've had those that just thought IBD ended up being lymphoma (two
intestinal/one all over), one liver cancer (hemangiosarcoma)all had IBD symtoms
poops but nothing helped.
Had one confirmed IBD case, he did well on pred the others the pred had no
effect what-so-ever.

Just a thought as horrible as it might seem.
>
> I'm writing again about my Tocho and his diarrhea again.  Brief history:

>
> I need to get this diarrhea under control.  Can anyone suggest anything??
> Could he have basic IBD on top of the other stuff going on?  Will slippery
> elm help??
>
> Thanks.
>
> Ella
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi,
My vet did a "cell scrape" on a small gun tumor on my ferret's gum/lip interface
(location = incisor of the lower jaw). The cytology showed inflammation and
hyperplasia.

Other than very ealy adrenal disease, my 4-year old sprite is in awsome health
(according to her physical condition, enegery level, appetite and blood work -
CBC)  She has no visible plaque on any of her teeth, and she eats a high-protien
diet.

This seemed to start shortly after starting Lupron. I did some investigation on
the web, and two things struck me as possible causes that might be
Lupron-related....

1.Increased Uric acid levels might possibly be stressing the kidneys such that a
lower protin diet may be required for my one girl???

2. Calcium-related issue may caused by Lupron....gingival hyperplasia can be
caused by calcium channel blockers.  I don't know of the "blockers" produce a
similar net result in the body that lupron does with respect to calcium.

The tumor/inflmmation has receded about 90% in response to medicinal mushrooms
for immune support. Clavamox has had about the same effect.

Here are the questions:
1. what causes gingival hyperplasia in ferrets?
2. How do you get rid of it (completely)
3. What is the likely long-term outcome for my ferret if we cannot eradicate
this condition?
4. What are other possible long-term outcomes for my ferret if this activity
persists.

Many Thanks in advance,
   -jennifer

one vet has recommended Revolution for mosquito bits.
I do take him outside for walks.
has anyone had any good  or bad experiences with Revolution?

It presented somewhat differently than most people describe so I want
to tell about it in case that helps another ferret.  The best way I
know to mourn her is to hope that what she suffered might teach
someone else in time to help another.

Three days ago she began looking a bit weak in the hind end, but not
enough and not consistently enough to look like the general symptom of
hind end weakness.

Now, she has not been very well for some time and was still on two
antibiotics fighting a very resistant infection of her vulva, so some
weakness and tiredness would be normal for her situation.

Yesterday she was a little clumsy, but still within normal bounds for
her situation and she certainly managed to play a lot yesterday.  It
was a very busy day for her.  She ran, she wrestled, she climbed the
bed.  But she was a bit clumsy with her rear quarters.  We thought she
was just out of shape and needing to regain muscle so we were extra
happy about all of the play she enjoyed.

The clumsiness was a clue it turns out.  It was probably due to
diabetic neuropathy beginning.

I wish we had checked her for ability to feel surface pain that day or
the next yesterday.   I want people to think of that and remember it
if they see anything similar.  Just try foot pinches.

We did not have a current blood glucose monitor.  We're getting an
Alphatrak but have no monitor right now.  Honestly, I don't know if
I'd have thought of diabetes, probably not, even if we had one.

Last night she had one weak time but was fine a short while later so
we figured she was just exhausted.

Today we found that during the night she had apparently been unable to
get to the food and water and had gotten urine and feces on herself.
She did not seem to be able to feel surface pain to her feet, was
turning them inwards and had very poor control of feet and legs though
she could move them.  She ate and drank greedily with us holding the
food and water.  Then she felt like kissing but her mouth was cold --
colder than it should have been.

We had already called ahead to the vet and set out for the hour ride
there.  She had diarrhea on the way there.  By the time we reached the
vet office she had perked up.  Her liver and kidneys were functioning
fine but her ketones were high and her blood glucose was over 700.
She pegged the machine so we don't know quite how high it was.

Attempts to place a catheter were not successful.

So, the calls began because she was in need of a 24 hour facility and
right now the vets at our hospital can not do that.  One also runs a
shelter, one just became a parent, and another just moved.

The two closest ones did not have anyone in who treats ferrets
normally, especially for something as rare  as this.  There was not a
huge chance that she would have made it for the ride to either one.
The third was an hour and a half away.

Her chances were incredibly slim and the possibility of her having a
decent life were very low so we opted for a mercy shot with cuddling
first and then cuddling with her sedated before a mercy shot.  She
passed on her own before her injection while we three were cuddling,
just minutes after sharing kisses once more.

So, if you have a ferret who is having stumbling times, please, try a
surface pain check and if you have a glucose monitor also check blood
glucose.  It could be diabetic neuropathy causing even intermittent
clumsiness.  It will all make more sense if what she went through
helps someone else.

Whizbang was so good during Steve's recent serious illness (luckily
not a malignancy) and used to insist on checking him each night as he
slept just as we always checked her.  She tried to do for her people
as they did for her.  She was a real trooper, too.  This was just too
much for her and she passed away too young at almost age 6 and 1/2.

A reminder so that the other moderators won't have the discomfort of
having to reject messages:  if you want to send a sympathy message
but it has no relevant health information you will need to send it
directly instead of posting to the FHL.  That's per the FHL rules which
are in the Files section of the FHL website.


Sukie (not a vet)

Recommended ferret health links:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html
http://www.miamiferret.org/
http://www.ferrethealth.msu.edu/
http://www.ferretcongress.org/
http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml
http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html
all ferret topics:
http://listserv.ferretmailinglist.org/archives/ferret-search.html

I get my pred from cvs too.
It cost me 17.00 for mine.
The vet wrote it for 4ml.
but not one had it in 4ml so they said to use 5ml and give more because 5ml is
weaker the 4ml.
and it come in clear form and dosen't need refrigerated.Not sure if it's call
Ml. or Mg.
......Laurie

[Ml is VOLUME so 4 ml is less than 5 ml but is not weaker.

Prenisolone does come in multiple concentrations.  In those the
WEIGHT of the medicine, the mg amount, varies.  So in 1 ml
(which is the same as 1 cc) of Prednisolone a concentration
that has 15 mg per 5 ml will have 3 times as much of the
medicine itself as one that has 5 mg per 5 ml.

So, the cost not only reflects the time put in to prepare and
whatever was added to flavor it, but also reflects BOTH how
much volume a person is buying (how much of the liquid)
and also how much medicine is in that liquid by weight (the
concentration).

As you see, this means that there is no way to know how the
amounts other people paid compare to what you paid unless
BOTH the concentration and the amount of liquid each got is
the same.

How long the medication lasts and whether it needs refrigeration
depends on what was added for flavor.  Some things added for
flavor keep 6 months or longer but others do not.

For Prednisolone we personally usually buy the concentration
which gives 1 mg weight of med in each ml of volume and
typically get it from our neighborhood pharmacy.  In our
comparison they like/dislike it as well, the alcohol amount is low,
and the cost is better.

There are meds for which we swear by using a compounding
pharmacy, though.

--Moderator, SDC]

For years I have been getting 'Pred' at my local pharmacy.

I get the human childrens Pediapred, generic prednisolone 5mg/5cc.  I get 240mL
for $32.00.  It is clear in color, no additives.  No refrigeration needed.  Has
about a year shelf life.

Prednisolone is better than the prednisone on the ferrets system.

Just have your vet write up a prescription for the pharmacy.  Shop around,
prices vary greatly from pharmacy to pharmacy.

Liz
MN

Suki,

Were there any other conditions/ailments other than the sudden onset of
diabetes?

Amy

[Please, use
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
for that information.
--Moderator]

The reason I ask if it is possible for a ferret to have insulinoma and
diabetes at the same time is because Whizbang had an asymptomatic
small insulinoma removed around a month and a half ago when other
things like checking for either stump pyometra or retained ovary were
happening.  (BTW, once pathology was done neither was present with
what looked strongly like an ovary being badly damaged fat.)   Blood
work kept being normal and she did not show post-op diabetes in her
post-op blood work, either because we do know enough to watch for
that.  Is it possible to have both together so that the insulin
produced by the too active beta cells can hide a tendency toward
diabetes due to inactivity of too many other beta cells?  Of course,
if so then she might have shown the problem in her post-op work, but
maybe not if she was stuck at the right time after eating and if the
diabetes had not yet gotten bad.  Then again, maybe it just turned on
suddenly.


Sukie (not a vet)

Recommended ferret health links:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html
http://www.miamiferret.org/
http://www.ferrethealth.msu.edu/
http://www.ferretcongress.org/
http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml
http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html
all ferret topics:
http://listserv.ferretmailinglist.org/archives/ferret-search.html

Sukie, my sincerest condolences to you and Steve. You no doubt did everything
anyone could have in your situation.  And Whizbang must have had a wonderful
life with you.

Having never dealt with diabetes before, I'm wondering what the significance of
checking for surface pain is...

"I wish we had checked her for ability to feel surface pain that day or
the next yesterday. I want people to think of that and remember it
if they see anything similar. Just try foot pinches."

Thanks for any further info you can give about this.

Jeff
In Memory of Neo and Mr. Parker
Caring for Trinny, Morphy, Baby Girl, Luna, Dozer, and Possum the Million Dollar
Ferret




[Answer:
Diabetes is one of the things which can cause peripheral
neuropathy.  In that situation there is deep pain but
surface sensations can become very confused, often with
no surface pain present, so if I had tried a pinch test and
she had not felt anything then peripheral neuropathy and
the possible causes of that would have been among the
things to investigate. -- Moderator (SDC)]

Sorry to hear about Whizbang. My condolences.

In hindsight I was just thinking while reading this, frequent vaginal infections
are also a symptom of diabetes in humans.  Also I know during a time when I had
frequent bladder infections, the doctors checked for diabetes as a cause. 
Wouldn't the same would be true for ferrets?  I'm sure I wouldn't have thought
of that if I were in your shoes, but it's something to keep in mind along with a
surface pain check.

Sydney




________________________________
From: Sukie Crandall <sukiec@...>
To: fhl <ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com>; Ferret Mailing List
<ferret-l@...>
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 2:42:08 PM
Subject: [ferrethealth] We lost Whizbang to sudden onset of diabetes

 
It presented somewhat differently than most people describe so I want
to tell about it in case that helps another ferret. The best way I
know to mourn her is to hope that what she suffered might teach
someone else in time to help another.

...

http://www.smallanimalchannel.com/ferrets/ferret-health/explore-the-ferret-skele\
tal-system.aspx

and

http://www.smallanimalchannel.com/ferrets/ferret-health/explore-the-ferret-skele\
tal-system-2.aspx

If that does not work then click it open from

http://www.smallanimalchannel.com/ferrets-magazine/default.aspx


Sukie (not a vet)

Recommended ferret health links:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html
http://www.miamiferret.org/
http://www.ferrethealth.msu.edu/
http://www.ferretcongress.org/
http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml
http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html
all ferret topics:
http://listserv.ferretmailinglist.org/archives/ferret-search.html

Logan had a glucose of 68 after literally dying on me. I did CPR and got
him back. We checked with the vet immediately and that's where the
glucose showed so low. However, his heartrate was an uneven 68bpm. She
said she'd never seen anything so low in a ferret. He was put on pred
and rechecked. The glucose was around 88 (if I recall) the beats were
still slow but regular. He does this 'thing' when getting meds where he
wheezes a few times, turns rather red and goes limp- no breathing no
pulse. I do CPR and he's back. Our vet suggested I also try CoQ10 and
we've been doing that. But he had another episode over the meds last
night. Could this be a seizure?

She highly suggests an ECG but around here that's upwards of $700. We
just spent our entire savings of just over $10,000 on vet bills for 2
other pets and there's no way we can afford that. We believe Logan is
around 7 or 8 years old. He may be older however. (He's now basically
white, his teeth rather transparent and several missing) We want to do
all we can and always do. We just can't swing the $700, even with credit
right now to confirm cardiomyopathy.

Does anyone have any other ideas on what could be causing the weird
episodes and or any alternative treatment for his heart?

A friend of mine has diabetes and occassionally has a crash where it goes the
other way into what is bascially insulinoma, so with ferrets having such a
similar metabolisms to us I would imagine that removing one insulinoma may
trigger a jump the other way causing diabetes as a spike, my thoughts but with
no real backup to these contemplations.

Very sorry to hear of your loss it never gets any easier and causes dont
alleviate such loss. sending sympathy and fuzzy love
Michelle and the New Zealand Clan

[Well, diabetics can at times not control their insulin and meals well
enough and wind up with hypogylcemia bouts but that is not insulinoma.
Insulinoma involves specific changes to the beta cells and is a distinct
condition that itself can cause hypogylcemia, but it is not
the symptom (hypoglycemia) itself but instead causes that symptom.
-- Moderator]

Ferrets can get heart blocks, and I have even heard of those on this list
getting a pacemaker.  So, yes, EKG is the one test that can help here.
An EKG should by no means cost that much, it is a simple procedure similar to
those done in humans.  My vet does it sometimes to monitor during an operation
and I believe at an additional cost of maybe $75 .  Every vet may be different,
but you should call around and find a vet that can do an EKG on a small animal
like a ferret, it very well may be a little extra for sedation ( but I wonder if
can be done with very light sedation as maybe inhaled gas) so you don't worry
about further suppressing the heart rate.



If you have no alternative vet that you can find, do you know of a ferret rescue
in your area?  Many times that person can recommend a vet they use.


Patty


----- Original Message -----
From: "samwitch54" <samwitch54@...>
To: ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:18:23 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [ferrethealth] Low glucose and pulse - ideas and alternatives?


Logan had a glucose of 68 after literally dying on me. I did CPR and got
him back. We checked with the vet immediately and that's where the
glucose showed so low. However, his heartrate was an uneven 68bpm. She
said she'd never seen anything so low in a ferret. He was put on pred
and rechecked. The glucose was around 88 (if I recall) the beats were
still slow but regular. He does this 'thing' when getting meds where he
wheezes a few times, turns rather red and goes limp- no breathing no
pulse. I do CPR and he's back. Our vet suggested I also try CoQ10 and
we've been doing that. But he had another episode over the meds last
night. Could this be a seizure?

She highly suggests an ECG but around here that's upwards of $700.

Spotting and treating such diseases to save ferrets:


> Vet Clin North Am Exot Anim Pract. 2009 Sep;12(3):531-61, Table of
> Contents.
> Bacterial and parasitic diseases of ferrets.
> Powers LV.
> Carolina Veterinary Specialists, Avian and Exotic Pet Service,
> Huntersville, NC 28078, USA.
>
> The domestic ferret, Mustela putorius furo, is a popular companion
> animal and is used in biomedical research. When compared with other
> companion mammals, primary bacterial and parasitic infections are
> less common in domestic ferrets. In countries such as the United
> States, pet ferrets are generally kept indoors, and the risk for
> exposure to primary bacterial and parasitic infectious agents is
> low. Companion, breeding, and working ferrets are commonly kept
> outdoors in other parts of the world, placing them at comparatively
> greater risk for exposure to infectious diseases. This article
> discusses clinical signs, diagnosis, and treatment of bacterial and
> parasitic diseases of ferrets.
>
> PMID: 19732708 [PubMed - in process]
>



Sukie (not a vet)

Recommended ferret health links:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html
http://www.miamiferret.org/
http://www.ferrethealth.msu.edu/
http://www.ferretcongress.org/
http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml
http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html
all ferret topics:
http://listserv.ferretmailinglist.org/archives/ferret-search.html

It wasn't the EKG but the ECG. She said he needed and echocardiogram I'm sure I
spelled that wrong. But basically, an ultrasound of the heart to diagnose. Hence
the price.


[ECG and EKG refer to the same test, just two different ways
of spelling cardio/kardio.  That is NOT an ultrasound.  It
is a plotting of the types of heart beats pretty much.  An
EKG/ECG is often enough to know if A/V Heart Node Block is
present.  Slow heart rate in a ferret is typically Node Block
and that can be triggers by insulinoma.

Some forms of cardiomyopathy (a different heart disease
which may be present at the same time but often is not
can be diagnosed by ultrasound, but not all forms can, and
an ultrasound tells a lot more which permits most precise
medical choices and dosing.

So, you may want to start with just an EKG/ECG given the
symptoms you mention and see if that indicates node block
and if so then which degree and try the meds for that.

--Moderator]

--- In ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com, kazpat1@... wrote:
>
>
> Ferrets can get heart blocks, and I have even heard of those on this list
getting a pacemaker.  So, yes, EKG is the one test that can help here.
> An EKG should by no means cost that much, it is a simple procedure similar to
those done in humans.  My vet does it sometimes to monitor during an operation
and I believe at an additional cost of maybe $75 .  Every vet may be different,
but you should call around and find a vet that can do an EKG on a small animal
like a ferret, it very well may be a little extra for sedation ( but I wonder if
can be done with very light sedation as maybe inhaled gas) so you don't worry
about further suppressing the heart rate.
>
>
>
> If you have no alternative vet that you can find, do you know of a ferret
rescue in your area?  Many times that person can recommend a vet they use.
>
>
> Patty
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "samwitch54" <samwitch54@...>
> To: ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 6:18:23 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: [ferrethealth] Low glucose and pulse - ideas and alternatives?
>
>
> Logan had a glucose of 68 after literally dying on me. I did CPR and got
> him back. We checked with the vet immediately and that's where the
> glucose showed so low. However, his heartrate was an uneven 68bpm. She
> said she'd never seen anything so low in a ferret. He was put on pred
> and rechecked. The glucose was around 88 (if I recall) the beats were
> still slow but regular. He does this 'thing' when getting meds where he
> wheezes a few times, turns rather red and goes limp- no breathing no
> pulse. I do CPR and he's back. Our vet suggested I also try CoQ10 and
> we've been doing that. But he had another episode over the meds last
> night. Could this be a seizure?
>
> She highly suggests an ECG but around here that's upwards of $700.
>

One of my first ferret's had insulinoma for quite a while.  Eventually, his
blood work started to indicate he was mildly diabetic as well. According to my
vet, he was both insulinomic and diabetic, so it seems that this is possible.

-jennifer

Just asking because I recall a human friend who
developed it secondary to influenza, so I am
wondering if ferrets can do that, too.  The
vulvar infections (two bacterial types involved)
was long standing so I was thinking more along
the lines of if Whizbang managed to pick up a
viral infection, but even if she did not it may be
useful info for someone else if there even is
ferret info on this.

Hi Sukie...so sorry for your loss of Whizbang.

I have a 6 year old female who was diagnosed with insulinoma right after I
adopted her a little over a year ago.  She had advanced symptoms right from the
start so I'm not sure how long she had insulinoma before being treated.  The
first time we went to the vet her glucose was only 39.  The Doc didn't offer me
much hope because she was in such bad shape.  We started her on pred and a
couple weeks later her glucose was up to 89.  The Doc was very pleased!  A month
later she was in the same range so decided we could go three months before the
next check.  I noticed that she started drinking huge amounts of water and
urinating just as much!  She also gained a lot of weight in her belly. The next
Doc visit her glucose was 412.  The Doc was very surprised, said it was a first
for her in over 20 years of treating ferrets.  She consulted with another Vet,
who is a bit of a ferret "expert"  and he suggested a special diet and of course
decreasing the pred.  Came back in a couple of weeks and her glucose was still
in the upper 300's.  Decreased the pred more and the glucose continued to come
down, but then it came down too low, 48.  Increased the pred again and went back
up. She's been pretty stable in the 160-170 range, which is a little high but
better than her being too low...but she continues to go up and down.  We were
wondering if she might have developed a pancreatitis with her insulinoma, but
her temp was never elevated.  The Doc did do an ultrasound of her abdomen and
didn't find anything remarkable. So, I  purchased an alphatrak meter and when I
see her exhibiting symptoms of either increased or decreased glucose I check it
out and adjust her pred accordingly.  Otherwise I do it about once a month and
she's been fairly stable.

From what I understand it's  pretty rare.  Her sister was diagnosed with
insulinoma about 3 months ago so we were curious if the same thing would happen
and perhaps have some genetic connection, but so far we're having a hard time
just keeping her in the upper 60's.

Brenda

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So sorry about your baby.  As to your question, I have had a number of
inulinomics that after treating for a while became diabetic.  We weaned off the
pred then they were fine for a while without meds but eventually went
insulinomic again.  Being that both diseases affect the pancreas I suspect
certain things can be triggers.

I have also had some spike really high post op after partial pancreatectomy or
removal of some lesions but then stabilize and be normal a bit.

If something pisses off the pancreas anything can happen.  Also it is possible
that there was a raging pancreatitis in addition to the insulinoma which could
be responsible for the severe elevation in the blood glucose.

Just my thoughts.  Take care and again so sorry about Whizbang.

Dr. Sue
TLC First Animal Hospital
Chicago, IL

--- In ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com, Sukie Crandall <sukiec@...> wrote:
>
> The reason I ask if it is possible for a ferret to have insulinoma and
> diabetes at the same time is because Whizbang had an asymptomatic
> small insulinoma removed around a month and a half ago when other
> things like checking for either stump pyometra or retained ovary were
> happening.  (BTW, once pathology was done neither was present with
> what looked strongly like an ovary being badly damaged fat.)   Blood
> work kept being normal and she did not show post-op diabetes in her
> post-op blood work, either because we do know enough to watch for
> that.  Is it possible to have both together so that the insulin
> produced by the too active beta cells can hide a tendency toward
> diabetes due to inactivity of too many other beta cells?  Of course,
> if so then she might have shown the problem in her post-op work, but
> maybe not if she was stuck at the right time after eating and if the
> diabetes had not yet gotten bad.  Then again, maybe it just turned on
> suddenly.
>
>
> Sukie (not a vet)
>
> Recommended ferret health links:
> http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
> http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
> http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html
> http://www.miamiferret.org/
> http://www.ferrethealth.msu.edu/
> http://www.ferretcongress.org/
> http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml
> http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html
> all ferret topics:
> http://listserv.ferretmailinglist.org/archives/ferret-search.html
>

I have not posted for a while but have been watching the discussions of recent
about Coccidia.  Bookker recently struggled with unresolvable diarhea.  Took him
to the vet and he tested positive for coccidia, took a while for things to
improve.  We are now on the 12th day of antibiotics (albon) and I am treating
all for of my fuzzies.  Bookker does have an unusually large spleen and he is
adrenal.  I have him at the vets now getting updated blood work.  The problem is
last night he crashed, for 3 hours.  I have had ferrets for 15 years and never
had a ferret not come out if it with some food, or some honey.  Then he was
doing this open mouthed panting anytime I tried to move him.  He was absolutely
and completely limp otherwise.  (His stools had just started to firm up a day or
two ago) I finally gave him some bupronex for pain, put him on a heating pad and
said goodbye figuring it was hopeless (we live in the hinterlands and access to
a vet that knows anything about ferrets is pretty much impossible.  I am
assuming he is now struggling with blood sugar control for some reason.  I am
not willing to risk surgery at his age even if it is an option(close to 7 years
I think.  Any ideas or suggestions regarding what I should be trying would be
appreciated.  Thank you.

Kathleen: Bookker, Little Bear, Boo and Poppy and in rememberance of the loss of
Kosmo and Pandy this last year.

Hi I have a 4 year old ferret named Jack who just recently started losing hair
on his tail. Is there something wrong? Is he sick we need help and advice.
Anyone who can please help.