--- In ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com, "patty" <pferret@...> wrote:
>
> does anyone have any info on this. Rare in ferrets.
>
> Thanks,
> Patty
>

All mammary tumors are rare in ferrets, at least our ferrets.  They
are actually more comon in black-footed ferrets. Unlike cats,
mammary tumors in ferrets don't tend to metastasize widely.  If the
borders of the tumor are clear, it is unlikely to show up in other
areas.  Now if it is not of mammary origin, but a sweat gland (and
they can look the same) the chance of metastasis is a little
higher.

Key here is whether excision was complete or not.

With kindest regards,

Bruce Williams, dVM

--- In ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com, "wapiti_86402"
<wapiti_86402@...> wrote:
> I Am new to ferrets and my friend just got a marshall's ferret on
fri
> well he wasn't doing good so they took him to the vet and the vet
was
> checking him out and they almost lost hima few times on the table
so
> they had the vet put him down. the vet found out he had one lung
was
> black and fatty.

Black and fatty lung?  Well, that is an unusual gross assessment.  A
diffiuse black color is usually the result of blood - hemorrhage or
severe congestion.  Torson (twisting) of a lung lobe can do it, but
haven't ever seen that in a ferret (certainly not to say it couldn't
happen as it does in dogs and cats).    Of it could be marked
collection of blood (lividity) if there was a significant time lapse
betweeen death and necropsy.  The fatty part is a bit more difficult
to understand - fat is usually not a major component of the lung
tissue.  Older animals can have lipid deposits in subpleural alveoli
(endogenous lipid pneumonia) but these are an incidental finding and
usually appear as small dots.

The gross description of black and fatty doesn't really jibe with
anything I would expect in this animal - I am hopeful that samples
were submitted for histopath.

I have an elderly jill with cardiomyopathy and renal failure.  She has
been eating soft foods only for about 2 years and I couldn't have
dentals done because of the heart disease.  I clean her teeth with a
cloth and toothpaste from the vets every morning and night and have
done so since she stopped eating dry food but still she has a lot of
tartar built up.  I wonder whether being on diuretics causes less
saliva to be produced which in turn speeds up the formation of tartar.
She gets Clavamox for a week roughly every 6-8 weeks to keep her mouth
and gums as healthy as possible.  I was wondering what else can be
done, should she get antibiotics more frequently or are there
antibiotic toothpastes or is there any other treatment I can try?  I
feel bad when I look at her teeth but also don't want her to die under
anaesthetic.  She has had heart disease for almost 20 months so is not
very fit.  I don't know what to do.  I also want to learn how I can
manage teeth better in older, sick ferrets on soft foods in the future.

Skye

Soft food itself increases tartar build-up.  There are studies on that referred
to in _Biology
and Diseases of the Ferret_.

There is also a statistical relationship between cardiovascular disease and gum
disease.  The
possibilities exist that each worsens the other, or there may be a unilateral
relationship, or
perhaps a common origin.  The risk of bacteria from the mouth which can get into
the blood
stream are better known, but there are investigations into the others.

The idea of the diuretic playing a part is interesting and could make sense
given the
problems dry mouth can cause.

Renal disease also worsens oral health and can cause mouth sores.

Congratulations on being able to give her 20 months good months so far.

--- In ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com, "Sukie
Crandall" <sukie@...> wrote:
>
>
> Soft food itself increases tartar build-up.  There are studies
on that referred to in _Biology
> and Diseases of the Ferret_.
>
It is not so much soft food as lack of fibre to act as a natural
floss.
A Bob Church said during his lecture at last years ferret
symposium, much more damage is done to teeth by a kibble
only diet as the tooth shape is not amenable to be adequately
cleaned by kibble.

Tony (not a vet), Sugar  and Suki.
In memory of Sally and Sue.

If you look in _Biology and Diseases of the Ferret_ you will notice that kibble
resulted in
better mouth health than soft food, but when soft food is needed it just is
needed.


> symposium, much more damage is done to teeth by a kibble
> only diet as the tooth shape is not amenable to be adequately
> cleaned by kibble.


I keep hearing that but it is not consistent with our own experience over a
space of 26
years, so while I am certainly open to the possibility of rate differences it
isn't a universal
family experience.

  The only ones we have had with cracked teeth have been the few who liked to
chew on
hard items such as metal and there were few of those.

We are always willing to have professional dental care done for them but only  a
few have
needed it.

  One of those was also on a soft diet and finally liquid diet for her last 6
months plus and
in addition had multiple deformities and health problems that can related to
poor mouth
health; we knew she had bad mouth health but she had something like 8 serious
separate
but simultaneous medical problems about 5 of which could be fatal all on their
own
(including a heart tumor, cardiomyopathy, insulinoma, liver cysts, etc. so had
to weigh
risks carefully.  Another one we had over that time with very severe multiple
congenital
malformations also had severe stomach, intestinal, and liver problems and on and
off
pancreatic inflammation related to when those kicked up.  He was prone to easily
getting a
filthy mouth.  (BTW, Bob wound up with the remains of one the first of these two
severely
handicapped individuals after Dr. Williams took all soft tissues that were of
use to him for
educational purposes.)

We had one who knocked out two incisors on metal, one (current) who chipped the
end off
one canine on metal (carry cage on the way to the vet, actually), one who
cracked a canine
root-- cause unknown but he was big on going after plastic,  and a few (3, maybe
4
individuals?  I could not be forgetting more than one or 2 but admit that is
possible given
the space of time involved and that includes the ones already mentioned for
other dental
problems) who had cavities, and one who had a palatine eruption of a molar so
that had to
come out.

--- In ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com, "Sukie
Crandall" <sukie@...> wrote:
>
>
> If you look in _Biology and Diseases of the Ferret_ you will
notice that kibble resulted in
> better mouth health than soft food, but when soft food is
needed it just is needed.
>

>  The only ones we have had with cracked teeth have been
the few who liked to chew on
> hard items such as metal and there were few of those.
>
As I thought I understood it (and I have the DVD) Bob's point
was not about broken teeth but about tartar formation not
being  prevented or removed by kibble (due to tooth shape),
heavy tooth wear over time and subsequent peridontal disease
occuring. He is also a proponent of teeth cleaning.
  It is widely thought in the ferret community at large that
kibble cleans teeth, Bob Church's point was that it just ain't
so.
I am sure with proper cleaning and regard paid to tooth wear
then neither kibble nor soft food would be a problem.

Tony (not a vet), Sugar  and Suki.
In memory of Sally and Sue.

--- In ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Williams, DVM"
<accupath@...> wrote:
>
> The gross description of black and fatty doesn't really jibe with
> anything I would expect in this animal - I am hopeful that samples
> were submitted for histopath.

WOW

So maybe he could have been dropped?  Would that have been the
cause?

that is really sad makes me want to cry. thanks for the info

Although lung torsion would not explain a lung
being fatty I was curious about potential causes when
I was asked off-line if the ferret may have been dropped.

I don't know that a typical dropping injury could do that,
but I honestly don't know.  The ribs provide a lot of
protection normally.

What I found on the web on cats, dogs and humans
indicated that some individuals have congenital
(birth defects) that cause either strange positioning of
a lung, or strange dispersal of blood vessels.
Compression injury has been seen as a cause.  For adult
  humans the most common cause mentioned was it being
secondary to chest surgery due to placement or other
change.

Knowing this still would not explain the fatty part at all
so it could easily not be applicable; the explanation
would need to take in both components.

Ah!  I just came upon a cite with an outstanding summary:

http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/39/5/446

BEGIN QUOTE
Lung lobe torsion (LLT) results from a displacement and
twisting of a lung lobe around its bronchovascular pedicle.
This relatively rare disorder affects dogs, cats, and humans.
Etiologies include primary (i.e., spontaneous) and secondary
torsion due to thoracic trauma, pleural space disease, thoracic
  surgery, pulmonary parenchyma disease, and diaphragmatic
hernia repair.
END QUOTE

Like I said, though, the cause needs to explain the fatty
component and this doesn't...

Please, if you can transcribe in the results of the histopathology
report later that would help teach all of us so that ferrets will
be safer.

I wonder if JL could cause changes in the thoracic cavity which
could create enough lung displacement to cause lung torsion?

*****What symptoms did this ferret have?*****

http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/37/2/128

More cases in pugs of spontaneous lung torsion:

BEGIN QUOTE

Clinical signs associated with these two cases included increased
weakness, increased respiratory effort, tachypnea, acute collapse,
lethargy, anorexia, and cyanosis.
...
spontaneous lung lobe torsion in pugs occurs and should be a
differential diagnosis for pugs with increased respiratory effort,
tachypnea, nonproductive cough, acute collapse, cyanosis, and lethargy.
Surgical excision may be curative.

END QUOTE

Cyanosis means the dogs were turning blue.

Tachypnea is rapid, shallow breathing like you also will see with heat
stroke or severe pain.

This describes how it looks on x-ray:
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16396263&query_hl=1&itool=
pubmed_docsum>

In other lung torsion articles I ran in long term severe asthma mentioned
in a cat but the article wasn't accessible so I could not check that.
Mycobacterium kansasii is mentioned here:
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=11991412&query_hl=1&itool=
pubmed_docsum>

Again, that would not explain the fattiness mentioned, but I just wanted
to learn a little more on the topic of lung torsion even though it has not been
found in ferrets so far according to the literature.

If imposed fats are possible, I have read in a news release in the past (a year
ago?  two years?) of human infants whose parents gave them oil thinking it
would ease coughing symptoms by coating the throat (There is a nutritional
anthropology inclination to do this in some cultures but it is not a good idea.)
but the babies inhaled the oil and wound up in horribly serious lung trouble
as a result.

(Was the kit already coughing and were oils or other liquid fats given while
coughing at the pet store or home, or otherwise inhaled?  I only ask in case
you already know because it is a far-flung scenario and doesn't really even
  fit your description, so there is no real reason to actually ask the people
that question if you don't already know because it is grasping at straws.)

Along those lines a new study in horses did not find a benefit from giving
certain fatty acids to horses with lung problems:
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17193883&query_hl=7&itool=
pubmed_docsum>

Please, do share the report findings from this most unusual case so that
everyone can learn.


Sukie (not a vet)
Current FHL address:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth
Recommended ferret health links:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html
http://www.miamiferret.org/fhc/
http://www.ferretcongress.org/
http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml
http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html

Lipid Pneumonia (non ferret refs but the "fatty lung" description
and my recollection that in some cultures giving oils for some
respiratory symptoms is part of their nutritional anthropology
customs led me to look):

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/LUNGHTML/LUNG026.html

In

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/LUNGHTML/LUNG027.html

notice

BEGIN QUOTE
This is the microscopic appearance of an exogenous lipid
pneumonia in which lipid vacuoles appear, mainly along
airways, accompanied by an inflammatory response that
can contain foreign body giant cells. The term exogenous
refers to the origin of the lipid material outside the body.
This material is aspirated into the bronchial tree.
END QUOTE

(Question:  did someone syringe feed this ferret?)

Here is another cause (human):

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/LUNGHTML/LUNG125.html

BEGIN QUOTE
This is the microscopic appearance of an endogenous lipid
pneumonia in which numerous foamy lipid laden macrophages
are present in alveolar spaces. The term endogenous refers to
the origin of the lipid material from breakdown of lung and blood,
usually distal to the site of an obstructive process (such as a
neoplasm, an inhaled foreign body, or bronchiectasis). The
macrophages collect to ingest the lipid material.
END QUOTE

There are photos there one one mycobacterial disease (tuberculosis)
in a human lung that caused granulomatous disease of the lung, and
the note that several fungal diseases: histoplasmosis, cryptococcosis,
coccidioidomycosis can cause the same appearance in human lungs.

There is more there which might be of interest.

Lipid pneumonia and obstructive pulmonary disease in cats:
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10800516&dopt=Abstract>

and

http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/34/4/275

From nematodes in opossums:

http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/reprint/24/2/214.pdf

In a dog from aspiration:

<http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1740-8261.1994.tb02041.x?
journalCode=vru>

From lymphosarcoma in a bear:

http://www.vetsci.org/2001/pdf/143.pdf

Have you heard of any adverse effects that Lupron has on Insulinomic
ferrets?  A local vet mentioned it during an exam (of a friends
ferret), and I don't remember reading anything about this.  The Quote
was "Vet, said it would make her insulinoma worse".

Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Florence Love
Marietta, GA

I noticed one study EACH (already noted) in which Mycobacterium kansasii causes
torsion OR
caused lipid pneumonia in 2 separate dogs.

That has been found in a ferret who was thought to have gotten it from the water
if memory
serves:

http://ferrethealth.org/archive/SG17627

Is a post I carried for someone who was afraid to post it and I also noted:

http://ferrethealth.org/archive/SG17627

The reasons the person was afraid to post (so had the anonymous information
provided with
us moderators having all source details) included that the poster was worried
about people
who might confuse M. kansasii with its cousins that cause bovine mycobactial
disease or
cause TB.  It really can take a lot of specialized testing to tell some of the
types of
Mycobacteria apart.

I wonder, too, (AND THESE SPECULATIONS ARE NO MORE THAN THIT BECAUSE I AM NOT A
VET AND NOT A PATHOLOGIST) if JL (Juvenile Lymphoma) could cause both findings
as an
incredibly rare presentation.

From personal experience not from any medical experts, we have had 2 occasions
where insulinomic ferrets have had crashes within a week of receiving a lupron
shot with no other changes in medication or diet.  One was not terribly bad, the
other we almost lost him had it not been for the wonderful work of our local
vet.  I have read that adrenal disease can mask the symptoms of insulinoma and
if memory serves the over secretion of hormones causes the a rise in the blood
glucose.  The lupron blocks the hormones and may cause the glucose level to
lower.  We have 4 ferrets who are both insulinomic and adrenal, none are
surgical candidates so are on lupron.  When they get their lupron we monitor
them very closely for a couple of weeks to insure that their blood glucose
doesn't crash.
Hope this helps and good luck, I would still recommend the lupron with close
monitoring,
Jim
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Florence Love
   To: ferrethealth@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 1:51 PM
   Subject: [ferrethealth] Lupron Effects on Insulinoma Ferrets ??


   Have you heard of any adverse effects that Lupron has on Insulinomic
   ferrets? A local vet mentioned it during an exam (of a friends
   ferret), and I don't remember reading anything about this. The Quote
   was "Vet, said it would make her insulinoma worse".

   Any thoughts?
   Thanks,
   Florence Love
   Marietta, GA





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would like to thank you all for your help with this issue.

1. yes they did check out the body right away.
2. No they didnt send anything out for testing.

Hi,

I have a ferret who seems to have lost some weight recently. He looks and
acts normal. He eats plenty enough. The food bowl is never empty, his poop
looks fine. Same with the water. So I'm at a loss as to why: and how to
bring it back up. Any guidance or ideas are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Necropsies are useful, but the majority need histopathogy to know for sure what
is being
seen.  When there is a mystery it's the only option for knowing the answer, and
in those cases
it also serves to protect other ferrets and sometimes other species, for
example, when there
turns out to be something infectious or toxic locally, or when a later ferret
needs the info
gleaned and shared, or when a new disease is being investigated to save lives.

> 2. No they didnt send anything out for testing.

I have one having the same issue. I am watching Him but I think He just lost
His winter chub, I hope.

Hi. I have been worried about the same thing. I have a little GracieGgirlie
who is 1 yrs old and recently has gotten very thin. At the moment, I am
watching her, but she eats, drinks, poops, and plays normally. She doesnt seem
to be
sleeping extra time. I too am hoping this is all due to the change of season
and shedding. As a kit, she was HEALTHY (fat)! I also have a big boy,
Shakespeare, who is non-stop energy/trouble. We thought he may be keeping her
busy
playing and has caused her to loose weight. They are also in love with each
other!!!! Lol!!! She is not skinny but tiny now. Maybe thats her normal
appearance
since she grown out of the kit stage! Is any of this normal?

Thank you for the reply.  I realize that soft foods will contribute to
tartar build-up, too.  There are many factors that have caused my old
girl to get worse teeth than some of my other sick ferrets had.  I was
just wondering how to best deal with the bad teeth.  What do you do
when you have a ferret that has bad teeth and can't have his or her
teeth cleaned under anesthetic?  Is giving antibiotics periodically a
good approach?  I feel so sorry for my girl.

Skye

What about some tarter removal without anesthesia, and with you cuddling the
ferret while
the vet does that?

Enzymatic toothpastes could help.

Things designed to chew on could help as long as the ferret accepts them but
doesn't go so
hog wild for them that they cause diarrhea, for example, Cheweasels and Foamy
Fries but I
suspect others will mention other options:

http://www.hyperfur.com/

I don't know if it will help gums but for mouth sores from kidney disease our
vet has had us
put regular Listerine on a swab and swab the area.  The alcohol in it helps
reduce infection.

I hope those help you.

I don't remember was it decided that cranberry juice is poisonous. If not you
could also swap the teeth and gums with some warm cranberry juice.

   What about topical novacaine, prior to cuddling and cleaning? Is that
potentially deadly in this case?

   Vicki

Sukie Crandall <sukie@...> wrote:
           What about some tarter removal without anesthesia, and with you
cuddling the ferret while
the vet does that?

Enzymatic toothpastes could help.




   .





   He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget
falls drop by drop upon the heart. And in our own despair, and against our will,
comes Wisdom by the awful Grace of God...Aeschylus



---------------------------------
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Florence,
There is only a small chance that Lupron might
effect the glucose level in an insulinoma ferret.
In a small percentage of adrenal ferrets (5-8%)
the adrenal(s) overproduce cortisol along with the
sex hormones and androgens. If you reduce the cortisol
level this could lower the glucose level in an insulinoma
ferret. This can happen after surgery to remove the
adrenal gland too. Again this is a rare situation and not
a major problem. If the glucose decreases then increase
the amount of Pediapred to compensate for the lower cortisol
level.
Hope that helps,
Jerry Murray, DVM



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Kathleen,
I am surprised that this "heart supplement" was
the only thing used to treat your 2 ferrets with
dilated cardiomyopathy. Lets look at those ingredients
to understand the logic behind their use.
1) Taurine is an amino acid. A deficiency in taurine can
cause dilated cardiomyopathy in cats. In cats when you
supplement with taurine, the cat improves rapidly and in
2-4 months the heart is back to normal. It was originally
speculated that taurine was the cause of dilated cardiomyopathy
in ferrets also, but ferrets just do not improve when
taurine is supplemented. The recommend dose was 250 mg
of taurine per day. It is safe to use taurine, but it usually does
not improve the dilated cardiomyopathy.
2) L-carnitine is a vitamin like nutrient which plays a crucial role in fat
and carbohydrate metabolism. Carnitine deficiency has been associated
with dilated cardiomyopathy in dogs (Boxers and Doberman pinchers).
Unfortuantely dogs usually do not improve with carnitine supplementation.
Carnitine is safe to use, but it is expensive and usually does not
improve the cardiomyopathy. The recommended dose for dogs is
150 mg/kg to 250mg/kg per day.
3) Co-Q10 is an antioxidant that seems to help people with atherosclerosis
and heart attacks. Ferrets do not normally have athersclerosis or ischemic
damage like people with heart disease do. Plus there is no evidence that
Co-Q10 helps veterinary patients (ferrets, dogs, or cats). Thus its use is
questionable.
4) Lycopene is a carotenoid and an antioxidant found in red tomatoes.
Lycopene is often recommended for people (males) to help lower
the risk of prostate cancer. It has no role in dilated cardiomyopathy.
It has very questionable use for male ferrets with adrenal gland disease
and secondary prostatic enlargement. In makes no sense to use in
a female ferret because they have no prostate.
5) Saw Palmetto is another product that is used in humans with
prostate problems. It is speculated that saw palmetto prevents
the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT).
DHT is the hormone that causes the prostate to enlarge.
However a study done in dogs with benign prostatic enlargement
showed no improvement with saw palmetto use. Thus its use in
ferrets is also very questionable. If you have a male ferret with adrenal
gland disease and an enlarged prostate then use Propecia (or Proscar).
This is a human medication which prevents the formation of DHT, and
it does work in dogs and ferrets. Again no reason to use this in a
female ferret.
6) Vitamin E is an antioxidant that is sometimes recommended for people
with a history of heart attacks. It helps to decrease blood clots and helps
with vasodilation. Vitamin E is fat soluble vitamin, so you have to be
careful
with supplementation of a good diet to avoid any side effects from too
much vitamin E. Currently vitamin E is only recommended for animals
with liver disorders. (Remember melatonin is also a potent antioxidant,
and it is actually 4 times stronger than vitamin E.)
7) Omega 3, 6 and 9 fatty acids. There is research showing omega 3
fish oils to be beneficial in people with heart disease. It helps to prevent
the weight loss that is often associated with heart disease, and it helps
to lower inflammation. However the omega 6 oils increase inflammation
in general, so it makes no sense to use omega 6 oils. Omega 9 oils
are common in canola and sunflower oil. They are low in cholesterol and
have zero trans fats. They are good for cooking, but there is no reason
to use them as a supplement. I would use just the omega-3 fish oil
and leave out the omega 6 and omega 9 oils. Omega 3 fish oils also
help out with kidney disease in older ferrets.
Remember a lot of ferret foods (Totally Ferret, Marshalls, etc.) already
have fish oil in them and in a balanced ratio with the omega 6 oils.
Likewise some of the kitten foods (Iams and Eukanuba) already have
fish oil in them.

I know when there is a bad disease such as dilated cardiomyopathy there
is often a feeling of "I have to do something" to treat the ferret. However
taurine, carnitine, and Co-Q10 are not cures in ferrets. It is recommended
in cats to use the standard therapy with taurine, and the same with dogs
with suspected carnitine or taurine deficiencies. Thus it would be better to
start your ferrets on an ACE inhibitor, diuretic, and a heart contraction
strengthener as the standard therapy and to use taurine, carnitine, omega
3 fish oils and maybe Co-Q10 as the nutritional supplement.
In addition if your male ferret has a prostate problem secondary to the
adrenal gland disease then use Propecia, and melatonin along with
the Lupron depot. Melatonin can also reduce the size of a prostate.
Hope that helps clear up some of the confusion,
Jerry Murray, DVM




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi, I need some help, I am trying to do some extensive research into the rabies
vaccine (Imrab 3) for several answers.

**One question is why does the company Merial suggest  after first vaccine, a
different amount of time for ferrets from cats and dogs? Cats & dogs can be done
every 3 years since the shot is a 3 year vaccination and there is NO one year
shot really. But for ferrets, they say do every year. I don't understand why,
does anyone know?

**Also, have there been any documented cases of rabies in ferrets? If so, do you
know where to find it? Also,, once infected with rabies, how long does it take
to see signs in a ferret? How long would a quarantine time be for a ferret
compared to the 10-14 days for a dog or cat?

**Is there any research still going on with this vaccine for ferrets? If so,
will they ever get to the same recommendation as cats and dogs(3 years)?

**Merial suggest giving only to healthy ferrets, cats & dogs, what is the
definition for healthy ferret? What I mean is, a very high percentage of ferrets
or older cats and dogs have some health problems and usually not good, as we all
know, in ferrets it's adrenal, insulinoma, and the list goes on. So what health
issues in a ferret or any cat or dog, will justify no more vaccinations for that
animal?

**And, I read somewhere and can't find it now, that the site of vaccination
sometimes has caused tumors and or cancer in animals, anyone ever hear of this?

thanks,
sue



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'll let others tackle which diseases should preclude vaccination and
hope that one of the experts will step in on that score.

Here are some links to help you, then an explanation with info for
you.  These and more can be found in the FHL links page:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/links
my links page:
http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html
and when the webmaster for the IFC site gets the rare commodity of
some free time to update will be there:
http://www.ferretcongress.org/

Rabies:
Professional information:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/rabies/professional/professi.htm
CDC Q&A on ferrets, dogs, and cats in relation to rabies:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/rabies/Ques&Ans/q&a.htm
National Association of State Public Health Veterinarians: the latest
Compendium of Animal Rabies Control and Prevention is in documents:
http://www.nasphv.org
The rabies section here has useful data:
http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/3035/bushmeat/bush4.html


Zoonotic info (some including rabies) but, please, notice that
ferrets have fewer zoonoses than many pet species do
Scroll to charts for quick info:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/notifiable/rabies/pdf/qvra-
rabies.pdf
A by-species outline of diseases that species of Carnivora get which
can be shared with other species:
http://focosi.altervista.org/veterinarymedicine_carnivora.html
http://www.wvu.edu/~rc/acuc/occ_ferrets.htm
http://www.radil.missouri.edu/info/dora/FERRPAGE/zoon.html


Also be absolutely sure to see state sites.  States keep their rabies
statistics and also states -- although they mostly follow the
recommendations of the _Compendium of Animal Rabies and Prevention
and Control_ -- sometimes have stricter approaches such as longer
quarantines.


Yes, there are several of us here who can answer the history of
rabies and rabies vaccines in ferrets because we we tightly involved
at various stages.

First, a brief explanation of rabies.

There are multiple strains of rabies.

In the U.S. the vast majority of human cases have involved a form of
bat rabies that other species can contract.  This is not to say that
most bats are infected.  One study by Bat Conservation International
found that of bats who were "up", i.e. could hang by their rear legs
about 5% had rabies infections.  Of those who were "down" (could not
hang by their rear legs) 15% had rabies infections and the rest had
pesticide or rodenticide poisoning. Still, those numbers are high
enough to encourage caution when handling bats as in having someone
who has been vaccinated do so or if you must then knowing how to do
it with increased safety (spoken as someone who used to be involved
in some local bat rescue years ago) and I suspect that info may be
present or pointed to on the Bat Conservation International site.
Remember that bat teeth are very small so there are common sense
procedures which can reduce risk, but possible exposure in a way
which can be infectious does require that prompt medical care be
sought.  The current rabies help for humans is no longer the painful
one used decades ago.

Raccoon rabies has gotten a lot of attention in the eastern U.S.
Some hunters (from Virginia or West Virginia, if memory serves)
decided that there were not enough raccoons to hunt in their area so
they illegally went to the Everglades, trapped a number of raccoons,
and then brought those raccoons to their state.  In so doing they
moved a strain of rabies from a small and isolated pocket which today
might even be tackled with vaccinated bait, into a place where it
could run rampant, and that is exactly what it did, spreading widely.

Some other common rabies strains in the U.S. include skunk, fox, and
coyote.

The most common way for a human to be exposed is through an infected
domestic animal who goes outside.  In most of the world that means
dogs, but in the U.S. cats are more often the cause due to more
failure to vaccinate cats than dogs.  Usually children and teens are
infected.

After a bite, or getting the virus in an eye or mucus membrane, etc,
or in some mammals eating infected tissue* the rabies makes its way
to the brain along a certain set of nerves.  If the injury is near
the brain, for example on the face or neck, the time can be short.
If the injury is far away and small, and the person is an adult, the
time can occasionally be quite long.  There is a case in U.S. files
of a woman who was an immigrant from Asia who did not visit Asia for
a space of something like 7 years but came down with an Asian strain
of rabies after that space of time.  That is an exceptionally long
time, though, and in normal ranges the longest is more often about a
year.  That  is NOT a reason to wait about getting treatment.  It is
absolutely important to treat as rapidly as possible.  Remember, too,
that it can take only a short time in many cases for the disease to
get beyond the point where treatment is even possible.  (There is one
case of a female U.S. teenager who survived rabies with treatment but
the last I heard she was still receiving follow-up for neural
damage.  There are a few (but I don't know if any are proven) reports
of a handful of humans who may have survived rabies on their own
worldwide.

Currently, there has been a marked increase in human rabies cases in
Mainland China making the health news because there are more people
getting companion animals, but a lack of appropriate veterinary care,
so the numbers of rabies follow-up for humans and cases of people
lost to rabies there has had a marked upswing.  That can happen
anywhere if people don't vaccinate and the disease is present in the
wild with possible exposures.

After rabies has travelled up the nerves it propagates in the brain,
hence many of the changes that occur with rabies.  When the infection
is large enough it begins traveling down a different set of nerves.
It is when INTACT virus makes it to the salivary glands that an
animal -- including a human -- can spread rabies so you have two
things involved to get a transmittable infection:
1.  the animal has to be able to survive the infection long enough to
have intact virus make it to the glands
2.  the virus has to survive well in the animal

The first is the more important in relation to ferrets.  They tend to
die before intact virus can be passed down.  It IS POSSIBLE for an
infection to be gotten from an infected ferret, but the statistics
are so against it that so far there are no recorded cases.  Do
recall, though, that the possibility does exist, despite it having
not happened and recorded.

Most (but not all) infected ferrets get the "dumb presentation", in
other words they become extremely out of it instead of becoming
aggressive, but aggression has happened in some.

Yes, there have been unvaccinated ferrets who have been infected with
rabies.  You will find info in the CDC and zoonotics sites.

This site has some good links and is written and maintained by a very
kind and logical British academic (having had conversations but
having misplaced my contact info including name...):
http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/3035/bushmeat/bush4.html
and I like that it has a related news feed build right into the
article with timely links

BEGIN QUOTES
Rabies belongs to the order Mononegvirales, and is part of the
Rhabdoviridae family and the Lyssavirus genus. There are seven
species of Lyssavirus with serotype 1 being classic rabies (CDC
Rabies Homepage 2004 and WHO Rabies 2002). Rabies can be acquired
from a number of different carnivorous animals that include dogs,
cats, ferret, raccoons, and bats (Morrison 2001, Rupprecht et al.
2002, WHO Rabies 2001, and Weber et al. 2001). For the purpose of
this project it is important to note that it can be acquired from
ferrets which are a common exotic pet. In the USA five to seven
million ferrets are kept as pets but there are no recorded cases of
rabies acquisition from ferrets (Morrison 2001 and Weber 2001). The
most common vectors for rabies are dogs and they cause roughly 35,000
human fatalities annually (Rupprecht et al. 2002). The WHO (2002)
estimate that there are 50,000 deaths attributed to rabies annually
with 30,000 of these deaths occurring in India and 99% of all deaths
occurring in Africa, Asia and South America.

...

Rabies is transmitted from the infected animals saliva to humans via
a transdermal bite, scratch or even lick to a mucous membrane (mouth,
eye, skin lesion). The virus proliferates inside the body in muscle
or connective tissues where it had been inoculated. The virus
particles then enter peripheral nerves and travel to the CNS by
retrograde axonal transport.

...

The length of incubation of rabies depends on the site of the bite
and the size of the inoculation, therefore incubation can last up to
3 weeks to a year. Clinical signs of the disease take two forms
furious rabies and paralytic rabies. Initial symptoms after infection
include fever and pain at inoculation site. Symptoms associated with
furious rabies are linked with spasms for example hydrophobia is
classically linked to rabies, people with hydrophobia are scarred to
drink fluids because of the spasms that occur when swallowing and
aerophobia is another classic symptom. Behavioral changes also
transpire for example anxiety, agitation, confusion and fluctuating
consciousness. Paralytic rabies is characterized by myoedema and
roughly 50% of paralytic rabies patients endure phobic spasm. But
both furious and paralytic rabies patients die via respiratory
paralysis...

END QUOTES

Okay, now the history of ferrets and rabies in the U.S.

Not all that long ago, ferrets were illegal in a number of states and
communities due to lack of information (and they remain illegal in
some but a great many changed their laws once enough rabies data was
collected), and a large number of ferrets were destroyed each and
every year, year after year, due to bites, scratches, scratches from
their cages (No, I am not joking; that is what happened in at least
several situations, including possibly in the well publicized case of
Kodo the ferret.), and in a few cases there were what were testified
to as false reports of such injuries made by ex-boyfriends or ex-
spouses as revenge to cause mourning for the ex.  Typically, such
reports resulted in the ferrets being destroyed so that their brains
could be examined because that is how one knows for sure if rabies is
present.

The process of having ferrets have the same protection as dogs and
cats was a long one, and it began with a place that is most commonly
villanized in ferret lists:  Marshall Farms.  Marshall Farms covered
a huge chunk (though I am unclear if it is all or "merely" most) of
the cost of finding which rabies vaccines would work for ferrets.
There were several likely vaccine candidates investigated, and then
it narrowed down to a few which were tested.  Of three of those one
vaccine caused a number of nasty side effects.  (All of those ferrets
were personally adopted by Dr. Judi Bell, DVM, who was then
Marshall's veterinarian because she could give them extra vet care,
and the last one of those to die passed away at over 10 years of
age.).  Another vaccine, which gives longer protection in other
species provided only 6 months of protection for ferrets.  Sorry, but
I have since forgotten the names of those two vaccines, but they give
an idea of variability.  Merial's IMRAB 3 was the vaccine which
showed protection for as long as year with a low risk rate of
reactions.  Might it provide protection for longer?  That is
possible, BUT IT HAS NOT HAD CHALLENGE TESTING so we do not know
without that, and rabies is such a serious infectious, fatal disease
that the data needs to be strictly reliable.

It was that work which led to the USDA considering and then okaying
IMRAB 3 for use in ferrets in 1990.

Then the balance of the decade long work began.  That involved
getting enough data on how strains of rabies behave in ferrets.
Multiple places, including the Morris Animal Foundation, collected
funding so that data could be collected.  Meanwhile, Dr. Rupprecht of
the CDC adores ferrets and he reminded people repeatedly there there
was no one-species study which compared the strains of rabies
(important missing data).  That combination got the funding.

Before this there had been U.S. testing on ingested infected tissue
and it was already known that ferrets don't get it that way, and
there had been French and German ferret studies of three rabies
strains in exist in Europe.  If memory serves it was the French
researchers who found how to give rabies infections to ferrets
without so overwhelming them that they died almost immediately.

Once the funding was in place (most from the federal government --
tax dollars -- because knowing how many differences may exist between
rabies strains is so important for human health and zoonotic disease
control) the CDC began testing in conjunction with some other rabies
labs (very highly specialized infectious disease laboratories) and
was done strain by strain over a number of years.

Were ferrets lost to the testing of these strains?  Yes, but at the
time there actually were some states which each killed more ferrets
than that total number lost to testing in only a few months' time
each due to accusations of injuries, so the results of this work very
rapidly saved more ferret lives than were sacrificed.

At the end of that testing Dr. Rupprecht and his co-authors strongly
recommended in 1997 to the rabies committee of the National
Association of State Public Health Veterinarians that ferrets be
written into the _Compendium of Animal Rabies Control and Prevention_
to be treated the same ways as dogs and cats.  They agreed and in
their annual meeting of these professionals who are BOTH
veterinarians and epidemiologists there was a vote that November to
positively change the compendium beginning with the 1998 edition.  If
memory serves it passed unanimously among those who were present
because the data behind it was so incredibly strong.

Not all were present, though, and not all states are organized from
the top down in relation to zoonotic control, so then followed the
education portion of the work.

For the Ferret Mailing List, its member ferret groups, and for the
Morris Animal Foundation I followed up with every U.S. state,
territory, and military veterinary oversight, while keeping Dr.
Rupprecht also informed.  (That is why I know what I do, but others
did the majority or sometimes all of other portions of the work.)
These data can be found in the late 1997 and the 1998 FMLs in those
archives (See links page to get there.).  When there was need Dr.
Rupprecht himself became involved to get states to go to the changes
that could save ferrets.  In at least one case he even flew cross-
country on his own dime to give professional testimony ot help save
ferrets from being killed needlessly.  There were some states where
the epidemiologists were unaware.  In some the need went beyond
regulations because legislation was required in those states and
residents had to take the data packets provided by several of us and
change their own state rabies laws.  In yet other states the local
health people have the power to ignore their state health departments
(leading to one expert saying that it scared him sick what would
happen if his state had a TB outbreak) so in those states the
resident ferret people had to work in community after community
educating these people with information packets and presentations.
(Steve and I ate $5,000 in personal cost not counting donations on
this but were far from alone; other people like Troy Lynn Eckart who
I hope will have time to also post with information for you, and a
number of people who had to challenge state laws or educate very
widely in their states also did similar things at similar costs, and
I suspect much higher costs in some of the states.)  In every single
state there needed to be follow-up with local emergency personnel for
human health because most were unaware of the improvement.  A lot of
people worked their tails off over a space of more than a year
getting the information out there.

As to the types of tumors which can happen at sites of injection;
those are very rare in ferrets, I think all of that handful studied
in ferrets involved an old and now discontinued CDV vaccine (but am
not sure), and those tumors can result even from injections or other
punctures that don't even include vaccines in other animals.

I hope that others chime in with more information for you.  Troy Lynn
and some of the people she worked with almost managed to save Kodo
and certainly did vast good throughout most of the process of
protecting ferrets from both rabies and from abusive rabies regulations.


--Sukie

*Dogs have been infected by eating infected tissue; the last I read
cats and ferrets still never have.



> From: "sue thomas" <ferretsnfelines@...>
> Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 10:44 am
> Subject: rabies vaccines
> ferrets_felines
>

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> Hi, I need some help, I am trying to do some extensive research
> into the rabies
> vaccine (Imrab 3) for several answers.
>
> **One question is why does the company Merial suggest  after first
> vaccine, a
> different amount of time for ferrets from cats and dogs? Cats &
> dogs can be done
> every 3 years since the shot is a 3 year vaccination and there is
> NO one year
> shot really. But for ferrets, they say do every year. I don't
> understand why,
> does anyone know?
>
> **Also, have there been any documented cases of rabies in ferrets?
> If so, do you
> know where to find it? Also,, once infected with rabies, how long
> does it take
> to see signs in a ferret? How long would a quarantine time be for a
> ferret
> compared to the 10-14 days for a dog or cat?
>
> **Is there any research still going on with this vaccine for
> ferrets? If so,
> will they ever get to the same recommendation as cats and dogs(3
> years)?
>
> **Merial suggest giving only to healthy ferrets, cats & dogs, what
> is the
> definition for healthy ferret? What I mean is, a very high
> percentage of ferrets
> or older cats and dogs have some health problems and usually not
> good, as we all
> know, in ferrets it's adrenal, insulinoma, and the list goes on. So
> what health
> issues in a ferret or any cat or dog, will justify no more
> vaccinations for that
> animal?
>
> **And, I read somewhere and can't find it now, that the site of
> vaccination
> sometimes has caused tumors and or cancer in animals, anyone ever
> hear of this?
>
> thanks,
> sue

Sukie (not a vet)
Current FHL address:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth
Recommended ferret health links:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ferrethealth/
http://ferrethealth.org/archive/
http://www.afip.org/ferrets/index.html
http://www.miamiferret.org/fhc/
http://www.ferretcongress.org/
http://www.trifl.org/index.shtml
http://homepage.mac.com/sukie/sukiesferretlinks.html




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just to clarify something, Steve and I have not been in a position to undertake
similar levels
of work or cost in recent years, so if anyone thinks of asking that sort of help
in relation to
another disease, I am sorry but our conditions have altered markedly in the last
5 or so years.

Hi Sue~
   Concerning the frequency of rabies re-vaccination in ferrets...
   Below is some additional information from Ron Hines, DVM posted April 24,
2004.  His statements are quite frank and honest....

   Excerpted from: http://www.2ndchance.info/fervacs.htm

   How Vaccines Work:
Vaccines stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies (titer) against a
disease organism so that the ferret is protected against various pathogens in
its environment. If the immunized ferret is later exposed to the infectious
agent, these antibodies react quickly to attack and neutralize the disease.
Ferrets also possess “memory” cells that mount a rapid attack against virus and
bacteria that they were once exposed to– even when antibody titer is low or
undetectable.
.
Determining parental immunity levels in ferret kits is expensive and rarely run.
So because we do not know just when to vaccinate we give a series of three or
four injections so that at least one of them will work. Another problem is that
the immune system of young ferrets is sometimes immature and incapable of
mounting a good antibody (titer) defense to the vaccines.
   Adult Immunizations:
Once we are sure we have a protected ferret kit we need to decide how often we
should revaccinate our ferrets to keep immunity at protective levels. Until
recently, veterinarians simply gave all ferrets booster shots every year. This
is what the vaccine manufacturers suggested. Besides, it brought our clientele
back to our animal hospitals yearly, which increased our income and gave us the
opportunity to detect other problems early before the owners were aware of them.
Most veterinarians do a thorough physical examination on pets at the time of
their yearly vaccinations and we often detect problems during these exams. By
law, most states require a yearly rabies vaccination for ferrets - even though
studies have shown that many of the rabies vaccines we use give us at least
three years of protection.
   Many veterinarians, myself included, were suspicious that the vaccines we used
were giving much longer periods of protection than one year. We knew this
because we never saw distemper in ferrets that had been vaccinated - even many
years earlier. Part of the problem involves the typical fee structures of
veterinary practices. We tend to undercharge for complex surgery and subsidize
those procedures with the money we earn on yearly vaccinations. I do not know
how this practice came about but it has existed at least since the 1950’s. There
was also an incentive for vaccine manufacturers to sell more vaccine if boosters
were recommended annually as well as a one-year mindset among the bureaucrats
that staff the USDA Center for Veterinary Biologics that dictate vaccination
protocols. These are the same deep thinkers that mandate a two-year expiration
date on a vial of water.
   How Frequently To Immunize:
I know of no scientific studies that have been conducted on length of immunity
in ferrets. But for most dogs, cats and other mammals, vaccination induces a
serologic response (titer) to both distemper and rabies that lasts for an
extended period – in many instances over four years.
Based on these studies I recommend that ferret kits continue to receive the
series of vaccinations we currently give and that they then receive booster
vaccinations against distemper the following year. After that, vaccination every
three years should protect them well. Indoors ferrets, which make up about
ninety-five percent of the ferrets I see, need less frequent boosting than
ferrets that go out of doors unsupervised or cavort with unkempt dogs. . No two
vaccine manufactures produce identical products so you should not assume that
the brand your veterinarian uses induces this long an immunity - but I suspect
they all protect well over a year. An exception would be ferrets living in large
multi-animal household or that are under heavy stress. Stress is known to
depress the immune system. Then, of course, the vaccine does not work. Distemper
can pass rapidly from carrier dogs and unprotected dogs at animal shelters and
groomers. This often occurs before their personnel
  has a chance to vaccinate them or for incoming ferrets to have time to develop
immunity.

There are other risks involved in too frequent vaccinations. For one, the immune
system of your ferret is stressed by these shots. Occasional ferrets develop
allergic reactions, facial edema, enteritis, lethargy, fevers, pruritis, nausea,
coughing. We also suspect that vaccinations can trigger certain autoimmune
diseases. Occasionally these reactions are life threatening. Some vaccines (Not
Merial) contain many ingredients besides the dried virus. Some of these,
antibiotics and adjuvants (enhancers), are implicated in vaccine reactions. In
ferrets that have had prior history of vaccine reactions (Other than to United
Products) I often do not give yearly vaccinations. I feel the risks outweigh the
benefits and write a letter for the owners to this effect. If I am suspicious
that a ferret might have a reaction to a particular vaccine I pre-administer
antihistamines (Benedryl) and give a minute test dose of 0.05ml. If the ferret
is normal thirty minutes after the test dose I
  give it the remaining one-milliliter. Other ferrets more at risk are those that
attend shows, large grooming or boarding facilities. About one tenth of the
ferrets I see fall into this higher risk category."

sue thomas <ferretsnfelines@...> wrote:
           Hi, I need some help, I am trying to do some extensive research into
the rabies vaccine (Imrab 3) for several answers.

**One question is why does the company Merial suggest after first vaccine, a
different amount of time for ferrets from cats and dogs? Cats & dogs can be done
every 3 years since the shot is a 3 year vaccination and there is NO one year
shot really. But for ferrets, they say do every year. I don't understand why,
does anyone know?

**Also, have there been any documented cases of rabies in ferrets? If so, do you
know where to find it? Also,, once infected with rabies, how long does it take
to see signs in a ferret? How long would a quarantine time be for a ferret
compared to the 10-14 days for a dog or cat?

**Is there any research still going on with this vaccine for ferrets? If so,
will they ever get to the same recommendation as cats and dogs(3 years)?

**Merial suggest giving only to healthy ferrets, cats & dogs, what is the
definition for healthy ferret? What I mean is, a very high percentage of ferrets
or older cats and dogs have some health problems and usually not good, as we all
know, in ferrets it's adrenal, insulinoma, and the list goes on. So what health
issues in a ferret or any cat or dog, will justify no more vaccinations for that
animal?

**And, I read somewhere and can't find it now, that the site of vaccination
sometimes has caused tumors and or cancer in animals, anyone ever hear of this?

thanks,
sue

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






---------------------------------
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in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi sue~

   I hope the information below helps to answer part of your questions.

   Linda

   http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~sprite/RABIES.HTML

   "There has never been a transmission of rabies from a ferret to a human. There
have been less than 30 cases of rabies in ferrets ever recorded in the United
States compared to thousands of cases in dogs, cats, and agricultural animals."
~~~

   http://www.radil.missouri.edu/info/dora/FERRPAGE/viral.htm

   V. Rabies
   "Ferrets are susceptible to rabies virus, but the latency or duration of
spontaneous infection is unknown.  Rabies has been diagnosed in 6 ferrets since
1980, and in one case the ferret might have been vaccinated with a modified live
rabies vaccine.  Another case of ferret rabies was diagnosed in a ferret with no
history of vaccination or exposure to a wild carnivore.  There are now several
USDA-approved killed vaccine products for use in ferrets: Imrab3, Rhone Merieux,
Inc. and Prorab 1, Intervet.  The dose and schedule for ferret vaccination is
the same as that for cats, and the vaccine is effective in protecting ferrets
from live virus challenge.  However, the Public Health Service, through the CDC,
currently recommends that vaccinated ferrets that bite a human should be
euthanatized for rabies examination. The 10-day postbite quarantine is not known
to be adequate for ferrets, and cannot be used as a standard until enough
clinical data is collected from vaccinated
  ferrets.  When faced with such a bite case, it may be best to contact the state
public health official for the latest recommendations.  Decreasing the risk of
exposure to wild carnivores markedly decreases the chance of ferrets contracting
the disease.  There are other conditions that can cause central nervous system
diseases in ferrets, particularly canine distemper virus infection.  If there is
any doubt as to the progression of a CNS disorder in a ferret, the affected
ferret should be isolated and or euthanatized so the brain can be submitted for
laboratory examination of rabies virus infection.
   Public Health Significance: The concern of humans contracting rabies from
unvaccinated pet ferrets is one of the major issues that precipitated the
passage of laws and ordinances preventing private ownership of ferrets in many
cities and states."


sue thomas <ferretsnfelines@...> wrote:
           Hi, I need some help, I am trying to do some extensive research into
the rabies vaccine (Imrab 3) for several answers.

Some sprites are just wee, as is my Beka a barely 1 lb.

Some ferrets go through what appears to be a drastic change with the seasons,
that is
abetted by the spring shed which makes them appear to have dropped enormous
weight.

  Just like 'baby' anything else, they go through growth spurts, from wobbly, to
chunky ,to
falling over their feet etc.

  In my experience, having neutered ferrets, their normal physique doesn't appear
until
after their first adult winter.
And even after, at about the age of 3 years, the body mass will shift in males
espacially
from the back and hip area, to the belly.

If all else appears normal, ie: play, eating, drinking, etc., I'd chalk it up to
seasonal shift,
keeping in mind that you should know each individuals changes at these times.