What does one do with all the deer carcasses that
will result if the State of N.J. is allowed to
massacre the deer? You get a bill passed under the guise
of feeding the hungry. This way you can get all the
dead bodies removed at the tax payers' expense. Can
one safely process huge quantities of dead deer in an
efficient manner in order to provide "wholesome" food for
folks that didn't ask for it in the first place? Who
cares, the hunters are not planning on eating the meat,
it is for the poor. Can animals who are not raised
in controlled conditions, that are allowed to graze
from lawns that are covered in chemicals and drink
from streams that are polluted with filth produce a
wholesome food for anyone?<br><br>The proposed bill will
allocate $95,000.00 of tax payer's money to remove deer
carcasses from massacre sites; send the carcasses to
certain butchers and ultimately ship them to unsuspecting
human
victims.<br><br><a href=http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/
target=new>http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/</a><br><br>THE ABOVE POINTS ARE VITAL
IN OPPOSING THIS BILL
WHICH WILL PROBABLY COME UP FOR A VOTE TOGETHER WITH
ITS COMPANIION BILL ON JUNE 8.<br><br>Contact the
State Senate appropriations committee and tell them you
oppose this bill.

In today's Courier-News (Bridgewater, NJ),
10/4/00, "Our Opinion" Section, the paper
writes:<br><br>"Here's something for deer-hunt proponents in New Jersey
to chew on--killing off deer will actually increase
the deer population. <br>"Impossible? Not according
to a biologist who spoke to the public Monday in
Princeton--a community which has become a focal point of
the<br>controversy surrounding efforts to control the state's
exploding deer population. <br>"Princeton is among the very
few communities considering hiring professional
sharpshooters with rifles and silencers to hunt down deer--a
disturbing enough prospect by itself. But now comes an
expert who suggests that such a deer hunt won't do the
job anyway, leaving a healthier environment for
surviving deer that will stimulate birth rates. "Now we
should point out that the expert--a biologist from a
community college in Pennsylvania--was in Princeton at the
invitation of animal-rights groups. And other experts
challenge his theories, saying that a higher birth rate
won't make up for the number of deer lost in a
significant hunt. "Still, even the possibility that a hunt
could exacerbate the deer population problem adds more
ammunition to the argument that nonlethal means of deer
control are preferable."

Thanksgiving marked the 4th week that Chicken
did<br>not visit. He's been a daily visitor from the time he
was weaned. He earned his name because after moving
in close he would suddenly panic and bolt back.
Chicken actually resembled a goat with his very light
eyes and funny antlers. Although he was in his second
year, he was quite small. He had a unique look and
personality. Chicken loved grapes and answered to his name. He
was probably the victim of a hunter's arrow--it is
that time of year. He would not have been a difficult
target, because he was quite used to people. He loved
life. I still look for Chicken every day and will for a
long,long time.

Colleen Krol asked me to post this important
message:<br><br>Please call President Clinton at (202) 456-1111 and urge
him to change the Artic National Refuge into a
National Monument.<br><br>This will protect it from George
Bush's plans to drill there for oil; that will be one of
his earliest initiatives.<br><br>You may experience a
long wait on that number but please persevere. You
will be asked for the state that you are calling from;
you may be<br>asked if you are also supportive of
other environmental issues. Please indicate that you
are.<br><br>Please pass this message far and wide and thank you for
your support!<br><br>Pat Scala for Janet Piszar

Thought I would give you the name of that book on
whitetails Ilike so much, and a few other books from the
same people. The links I provided are hopefuly going
to take you to the page on Amazon for the different
books.<br><br>Whitetails: Behavior, Ecology, Conservation<br>ISBN:
0-89658-196-9<br><a
href=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0896581969/qid%3D991502173/103-60479\
20-23
target=new>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0896581969/qid%3D991502173/103\
-6047920-23</a> 11025<br><br>Elk: Behavior, Ecology,
Conservation<br>ISBN:
0-89658-275-2<br><a
href=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0896582752/qid%3D991502277/103-60479\
20-23
target=new>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0896582752/qid%3D991502277/103\
-6047920-23</a> 11025<br><br>Mule Deer: Behavior, Ecology,
Conservation<br>ISBN:
0-89658-263-9<br><a
href=http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0896582639/qid%3D991502372/103-60479\
20-23
target=new>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0896582639/qid%3D991502372/103\
-6047920-23</a> 11025

Boy, I have been on slow groups before. But no
messages except my own in over 6 months, that is clearly
classified as officaly dead.... OH well...<br>If I got a
responce on even intrest about those few books I posted, I
have found many more, and if people are intrested I
will go ahead and spend the time too compile the list
of Non-Hunting deer books and such.<br><br>And
speeking of that message 6 months ago, I do have too
disagree with its premis. Being that I live in Alaska. I
don't see this issue with the new oil fields in Alaska
to be that big of a problem. The actual impact they
are going to cause up there is probably talong the
same scale as the polution and enviremental impact as
that car you drive.<br>They have spilled as much pure
oil on the ground up there in the main oil fields as
there is on the ground in any large department store's
parking lot.<br>I have a feeling that most people that
hav never been here don't really realize how large
this state is, and now really small those drill rigs
really are. Just my opinion, probably going too piss
people off, but I havn't woriied about that in a long
time. ;)

No, it is not a dead group. As long as your not
killing deer, it will take an awful lot to "piss me off."
N.J. was a large area mass -- at one time, relatively
speaking. Over-development of a state just creeps up on you
and that rig you speak of is a step in that
direction. Tonight I will be attending a town meeting at
which the "deer problem" will be discussed. Actually,
we have a people and pollution problem, but because
we don't want to give up anything, we will discuss
killing deer in very large numbers. They seem to be
getting in the way of all that traffic. Other animals are
smashed in the roads, but it is the deer carcasses that
really are really bothering people -- so, we will
destroy thousands of them because they make us feel
uncomfortable lying on the side of the road. New Jersey is
continuing with the violent approach to wildlife management
and of course, continuing with its sprawl and
pollution. What I need is information on birth control for
the deer.

I am definatly not killing deer, for many reasons
including I rarely eat meat at all. I simply can't stand
the idea of killing animals.<br>Well, about deer
control, if we had more control over the human population
everything would be easier, but most people feel its their
right and responsibility too have as many kids as they
can, which I personally feel is insane. I am starting
too think that anyone that has two kids should be
required to be spaid/nuttered. Either that or at least
with taxes, the first child yer taxes go down, and yer
second child yer taxes go back too normal, and any kids
more then that your taxes go up by 5% to 10% PER
kid... Would solve so many problems in this country.
Espically seeing that liberal's seem to think taxes arn not
high enough, this would drastically increase taxes on
people. Which would make Democrats happy in
someways.<br>Although being a Registered voting Libertarian (yea thats
even more "right wing" then Republicans) I tend not
too like most things dealing with any kind of big
goverment. I am not melita member, I am not that radical,
although I am VERY pro-Gun and Anti-Big
Goverment.<br><br>Well, seeing that there are extremly few actual roads
up here its only certain times a year when "large
wild animals" are on the roads. We more have a problem
with moose here then any smaller member of the deer
family. The two roads that go north have a small problem
with Cariboo. The thing with moose, being they are the
size of horses, you would think people would be more
careful. Lots of people have died hitting moose. Every
year in area valley around 200 too 300 moose die by
getting hit by cars, they keep track of every one. Mainly
because there is a major accident report every time, and
they have too have someone come and take away the
body, they take the body and process them and give the
meat too poor familes in the area.<br>ITs insane some
time on the highway, there will be a moose standing
along the side of the highway definatly looking like
its wanting too cross... And people will be driving
past it still doing full highway speed. And then their
surprised when it steps out in front of them, stupid
fliping morons.<br>Our area would be ideal for sitka
black-tailed deer, and their not that far away now, been
migrating farther north the past few years because of the
mild winters lately. As soon as they get here I am
certain the number of animal kills is going to skyrocket.
We have the only section of truly "Freeway" in the
state, its around 50 miles long running from the valley
into anchorage. All the rest of the roads in the
entire state are narrow two lane highways and people
tend to drive slower.<br><br>Most people tend not too
really understand the size and population density in
Alaska. This state is a little more then twice the size
of Texas, and we have less people in the entire
state then there is in "small cities" in the lower 48,
there is only around 600,000 people in the state, and
400,000 of them live within 100 miles of here. If you
averaged the entire population with the size of the entire
state, there is less then one person per square mile.
But thats not really acurate seeing that most of the
people live within a few small area, like around
Anchorage and Fairbanks and Juneu. There are many places in
Alaska were you go fly out too and be the only human
within a hundred miles, litterly. Only 3 roads here,
something like 1% of this state is accessable by road, the
reast you have to go by boat or plane, so not worried
about the bush areas exploding in population, life up
here is EXPENSIVE and can be very hard. Some of the
most beautyful land in the world, I have seen things
that defy description. Coming from Illinois and having
traveled most of the lower48 I still havn't even see
nothing that even could compare too what I have seen up
here.

your artical is wrong and so was the guest
speaker.I work for the NJ department of fish and game and
am also a wildlife biologist. Thw man that you are
talking about is not,he is an enviormental
biologist,there are many kinds of biologists around,in many
diferent feilds,I work with wildlife and do know that the
only real way to reduce the deer population is to kill
some.That is a fact

Just who are you addressing when referring to a
"speaker" and article? You work for what? If you are a bona
fide member of the N.J. Fish and Game anti-animal
organization, would you kindly come out of the closet and state
your name. Biologist? They should all be working for
the pharmaceutical companies, not Fish & Game. You
guys are always stating the studies of biologist --
where are the veterinarians? Send you biologists over
to the pharms to study ways to kill germs. We are
talking mamals, here. We don't have a deer problem in
N.J., we have a people problem -- many have turned into
parasites. Bring out the birth control -- for the deer AND
ESPECIALLY, the people. Personally, I think all you kill
people should take out your bows and arrows and guns
against yourselves -- fair exchange.

Sounds like a good an reasonable plan to me.
:)<br><br>I have always been a suporter of mandatory birth
control on humans, a good 3/4 of the humans on this
planet have NO busisness ever breeding...<br><br>Its a
good proof that someone is nothing but BS if they will
not even give part of their name. Most likely they
end up being young guys with more hormones then brain
cell's anyway.<br><br>If ya notice, I do give out my
full legal name on here, and if ya know where to look
ya can probably find out a great deal about
me.<br><br>Kevin Johnsen<br>Federal Goverment Employee<br><br>(PS.
no worries, I am just a computer jeek working for
the department of forestry, no power or influance
over anything, just another schmuck pushing buttons on
a computer, doing the data entry no one else wants
to do)

Pat: Forsy of all look at my profile my name is
there along with the city that I live in...what would
you like my phone number..or even better me
address??<br><br>Your so call guest expert was a enviromental
biologist,not a wildlife biologist,big diference.<br><br>Why do
toy say anti-game??? Do you have any idea what the
department does????What about all the endangered animals and
plants in this stat,or are you one of the ones that
believe that we only care and work with game
animals???<br><br>Do you have any idea what the diference between a
wildlife biologist,and a clinical biologist or a marine
biologist??? I would bet not.<br><br>Yup we dop studies and
models and feild research looking for trends and
watching the rise or fall of wild animals in the
WILD.<br><br>Next you are completly wrong NJ has a major deer
problem,we have the thered largest dee population in the
USA,and all that for a very small state.But I guess you
would rather see them die slowly and painfuly then see
them hunted.<br><br>Birth control for deer has been
tried and proven that it does not work at all.It is
less then 30% affective and that is in a clinical
enviroment,not on free rangeing deer,also do you have any idea
of the cost of such programs???I runs between 200
and 300 dollars per deer,and they MUST be injected
twice,the chances of getting the same free rangeing deer
are slim at best.I don't think the people in the
state are willing to pay much higher taxes to fund such
a program.Butr hay maybe if you asked PeTA or HSUS
they would be more then happy to do it.<br><br>Oh and
yes we are talking about mamals,but so are we,we have
doctors to help us and to research to find fixes for
us,why should wild animals be diferent???

OK now you can go ahead and pick apart my last message....Oppppppppps fingers
sliped on the keyboard...LMAO

Most people who enjoy killing hapless animals are out of their mind.  You're no
exception.

No pat I am quite sane,with a sound mind.Just
because I do not have the same views as you does not make
me out of my mind.I could say the same about you
"why would anyone want to eat just veggies" when there
is perfectly good meat to be had,you see it cuts
both way.I personnely could care less about your
personnel choice of diet or if you wish to hunt or not,that
also is a choice.<br><br>And yes I am an exception,at
least I have an idea of what I am talking about and
something about nature,unlike 99% of AR people.

You are on record as referring to a speaker. What
speaker -- do you hear voices? In my previous statements
I am not discussing food choice. My criticism is
aimed towards individuals who enjoy killing things. Why
anything should cease to exist because you get a charge
out of killing things goes beyond rational thinking.

So by your reasoning a wolf should not kill
something either.<br><br>I don't get a charge as you put it
out of killing something.I my case I do it for
food.Me and my family don't eat any other kind of meat
besides game that I kill.Also hunting is not just about
going out and blasting away at anything that moves,bit
you as a non-hunter would not and could never
understand that.<br><br>Besides giving my and my family good
quality meat,it also has formed a bond between my and my
three daughters that few have.People can learn a lot
from hunting.<br><br>But if you do not wish to hunt
that is your choice.But you don't have the right to
stop someone else from doing it.<br><br>Also there is
a very big deference between "killing things" and
hunting.Anyone can kill a animal any animal,no challenge
there,heck someone could go around the block and shoot dogs
and cats,that is killing,but it takes very much skill
to hunt a deer and get close enough to get a clean
shot.

Hi, anybody home? I know i am!! Somebody come out
and talk about deer with me. We feed them in the
winter. A mother brought her faun, hours old, last spring
right into the pasture with me and my horse to show her
off, i guess. <br><br>I am desperately in love with
the deer, and need a place to talk to others like
you. Bow season just opened here...

Feeding deer or any other "wild"animal is a big mistake and illeagle in most
states.Why???Because all you are doing is making them dependant on you.

It's not illegal here. To answer your question,
last winter, the deer in our area were literally
starving to death due to the unusually deep snow. They
were comming into yards in the suburbs to eat bushes
right next to the houses, getting hit by cars, comming
into people's garages and barns and eating bird seed
and horse food. We put hay and corn out in the woods.
We don't feed them all the time. We put out some
food durring the really bad weather when they would
die without it. Deer don't have a huge territory. We
have 100 acres of woods, and if they depend on us,
that's fine, because we aren't going anywhere, and we
don't feed them so much that they forget how to care
for themselves. See any problems with that?

You may be right about it being ok to feed
deer,and in some cases I will agree,but you realy have to
be carefull about it.Call you local fish and game
department to see if it is realy ok to feed them,I supect
that they will tell you no.Why do you want them
dependant on you,what about natural selection////For as
much as I have to say it even the hard core AR groups
are against feeding wild animals.Also there are
certain dangers that arise with feed wild
animals.<br><br>I realy don't know the facts about where you live
and how many deer there are to see a problem with
your feeding them,but as I said in most cases it is
wrong to feed them.

Last year the local fish and game actually put
out a request for people to feed them, as the
population was plenty small after hunting season, and the
deer were getting into all the neithborhoods and
causing problems. It was a very bad winter. <br><br>I
understand your concern. We feed them a little almost every
winter when we find signs that they are hungry and
traveling into the highways and such. We spread the food
around, and there is no specific feeding location. The
deer aren't the only ones who benefit. The local
coyotes are glad to have healthy deer too. We estimate
"our" heard to be around 8-10, but in the really bad
parts of winter, there are more than that here.

May I ask what state your in??

You can ask, but i won't answer. I'm not
interested in trying to prove myself to you. I joined the
club to talk to people who feel as i do, and i really
don't have time or energy to go on with this. <br>
<br>I will say that it is good to hear of a hunter who
takes time to get a clean shot, and won't leave wounded
deer to rot, which is much of what i've seen. I do
support the sort of hunting you do. I don't hunt nor eat
meat which is my own personal choice, and i don't want
to hear about it or see it, and that's my right
too.<br><br>I'm not interested in trying to change your way of
thinking or judge you, and i'll thank you not to bother me
about my own choices.

I was just asking what state you are in nothing
more...Call it professional curiosity...In my line of work I
have not heard about any EDC or FNG asking people to
feed wild animals,but as I said I don't think it is a
bad idea in some cases..<br><br>Also I am not trying
to change anyones mind here or anyplace else...If
you have been reading back posts you can see I don't
wish to change anyones mind.I don't judge you
either....You don't sound like the kind that has a closed mind
about things.....

Very sorry. We're in Michigan. Guess i've talking
to too many drunken idiot trigger-happy hunters this
week... they're waiting impatiently for gun season to
begin. You wouldn't believe the number of bullets that
go zinging accross our property that time of
year.<br><br>Thank you for your calm reply to my silly post.

Here in New Jersey towns are actually passing
ordinances against feeding deer. Of course my take such an
ordinance is that just because you put out some corn it
does not mean you are feeding deer. If a town is going
to prevent folks from putting out corn, then they
should also prevent people from maintaining lawns and
shrubs--because deer eat those, too. In New Jersey many folks are
heartless and not at all shamed by it. If I were heartless
-- Thank God I am not -- I would not want anyone to
know it. The deer show more compassion with more
consistancy then many of my neighbors. Perhaps that's why I
think so much of them. It is the deer that brighten my
day after a day earning a living in the most
congested state in the country. I thank God for making such
wonderful creatures such as deer. I feel sorry for the
people who have a compulsion to destroy them.

I am SO GLAD that you are here, Patscala. Thank
you for posting. I would love to talk with you. Deer
are very special to me. Personally, i'd like to see
the wolves brought back and the hunting more strictly
regulated. But even then, i don't want to be anywhere NEAR
hunting - even the uncommon ethical sort.

Welcome to the club and thank you so much for
writing. Like you, I have a tolerance for natural
preditors, like wolves, but find it difficult to understand
killing for the pleasure of killing. In this state there
is so little "country" remaining. The beautiful deer
are all that remains of large mammals that are truly
wild. This is why we should treasure them here rather
than persecuting as we do.

I agree with you.  This really is a wonderful idea for a club.  I'm so glad you
started it!